francisco_salaquanda Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 <p>Now I'm no NZ fanboy. But I have experienced the process...twice. Its simple...its all free. For most everyone. They do have a filter on health tourism though.</p> <p>How can they pay for it? 1. They disbanded their Airforce. 2. Health and universal, free education (incl university) are their priority. So the government shapes its priority around these essentials.</p> <p>It puts the rest of the western world to shame.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJHingel Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 <p>Francisco, NZ is ranged as number 42 in the World Health Organization's ranking of health systems in 191 countries, after Cuba, Slovenia and the US. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems">See here</a>. Seven European countries together Japan, Singapore and Oman, are among the top ten.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francisco_salaquanda Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 <p>The medical systems in France and Italy are 1) broke and 2) only available to citizens or permanent residents. Both countries have massive double digit unemployment and their economies are basket cases. I would not be parking my butt in either of the above countries if I wanted a secure future. There is only so much one can get out of tourism.</p> <p>I have this discussion with lots of people. My daughter asks me where would be a good place to live. I said Switzerland, but only if she could seduce a Swiss prince.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJHingel Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 <p>If you park your "butt" in New Zealand, you would discover, that also there health systems are available to permanent resident or people with a work-permit of minimum two years and not to anyone passing by. In France and Italy, because they are part of the EU, health systems are available to all "European citizens" in the country carrying European Health Insurance cards (available to all more than 500 million EU citizens !) and to non-EU permanent residents. None of the systems are "broke" (unless you only read about it in BusinessWeek), but their longer term financing needs to be updated and reformed due to demographic changes as in much developed countries. <br /> <br /> The most recent national report on NZ health system concluded that the country's health and safety regime is "not fit for purpose", and came with recommendations on "how to fix our broken health and safety system". So maybe you should rethink your dream of safety.<br /> <br /> Concerning princes, most of them fake, you do find them in Switzerland (there are surely more in Italy), but they would probably be foreign residens. Whether they can provide a "secure future" for your daughter, would be dependent on the "price" and not least the mariage contract. :))</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 What I find sad (and interesting), is that people who claim or want to be "raising awareness" of the homeless situation through documenting with their camera, never seem to want to go deep, taking the next step in order to accomplish that. It's really not that difficult, but does require a modest commitment of time if someone is truly interested. It's much easier to take some drive-by snaps of the helpless sprawled out on the sidewalk against the wall from above, resulting in gritty black and white (of course) urban eye candy which is then held out as social documentary photography. Also, shooting in that manner, one never has to worry about subjects objecting to being photographed to the point of getting up and punching you in the nose... www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhooru Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 <p>Even given my photo above, I must confess that Brad's last is so very true...</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJHingel Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 <p>Would it again be Pace you are poking on, Brad and Barry ? I would find that quit unfair.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJHingel Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 <p><em>quite</em> !! Sorry</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chansonbleu Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 <p>I don't think that was a shot at pace, rather a shot at those that photograph the homeless and try to justify it as "social awareness". I have been guilty of it as well.</p> <p>Where I dissagree with Brad is that to document homelesness in a meaningful way is difficult. It requires lots of time, commitment and real empathy. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJHingel Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 <p>I agree Steve. When documenting homelessness is well done, it can be a forceful support for social change.<br> Personally I have throughout years in my professional work been supporting and financing actions to support homeless people, not to speak about combatting homelessness and extreme poverty in general. In all these actions, photography was often used to raise awareness on a local level <a href="http://www.theparliament.com/latest-news/article/newsarticle/homeless-people-excluded-from-european-rights/#.UdPuHhb2x5U">as here</a>. Notice, they are indeed sleeping !<br> My own photographic works on "streets" do not bring much added value. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhooru Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 <p>Well, the point isn't to document or not document. But just walking around catching guys asleep or passed out doesn't really make a documentary or one of any interest. I'd say Pace's photos fall into the not interesting category, no engagement, its more just taking advantage of them and justifying it as trying to raise awareness. To me the photo needs more, some context or an idea or an actual engagement that brings these people to life. this takes some time and commitment and risk to actually get to know some of these people. And as far as I know, Brad could have been talking indirectly at my photo. I took it because of the irony of the sign on the trash can and the walk of stars and wondering how in the midst of the "entertainment capital of the world" where all is suppose to be glamorous, a guy is trash diving. But it's not part of a documentary and is not engaged in the manner I believe Brad is referring to, if at least it's not a flyby gutter shot of some dude crashed out on the street.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJHingel Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 <p><em>To me the photo needs more, some context or an idea or an actual engagement that brings these people to life.</em><br> I don't know where you live, Barry, but around me "these people" are very much alive and you don't have to convince anybody, that they are human beings. Where "social change" could be happening could be through showing, that their living conditions are inhuman.<br> Social contexts for homelessness are different, and I certainly do not deny that sometimes and somewhere, "these people" have been dehumanized and you need another type of message for social change. Both are engaged and compassionate.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 >>> Even given my photo above, I must confess that Brad's last is so very true... Cheers, Barry. Just to be clear, my comment was not a jab in any way whatsoever at your photo. >>> Would it again be Pace you are poking on, Brad and Barry ? I would find that quit unfair. Anders, no. And that would not be unfair expressing my opinion in any case. My comment was directed towards photographers who come by here, and other places, every once in awhile, and claim to want to "raise awareness" of the "homeless" through their photography, but have no interest in going deep. Rather, it always seems to be photos taken from a superior (literally) position lacking care or empathy, with zero engagement, and without wider context. And in the end do not reveal anything that is not already known. Let's take San Francisco as an example. *Everybody* knows there is a homeless problem. Cheap, drive- by snaps of people in helpless situations does not raise awareness, reveal anything not known, inform with respect to root causes, or suggest any sort of solution. This will sound like a generalization, usually, but not always, people who take a lot of pictures of the homeless, it seems are uncomfortable taking pictures of able-bodied people in general, for a variety of reasons. And instead, take the cheap shot of a disadvantaged person in a helpless situation because such a person is not likely to object, get up and chase you down the street because you have taken their picture without permission. I've seen that a lot here in the past, and on the street. When I see a group of homeless photos shot close up, I always look to see if that photographer has a body or collection of photos of able-bodied people that are not homeless. It's tough taking candid photos of people in general, close-up. If you feel uncomfortable doing that, that's fine - it takes a long time to develop that confidence. But please, in the meantime, don't start snapping the disadvantaged and marginalized in helpless situations thinking it's a shortcut to people photography, and couch your efforts as "raising awareness." That's just bullshit... www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 >>> Where I dissagree with Brad is that to document homelesness in a meaningful way is difficult. It requires lots of time, commitment and real empathy. Steve, I agree with your second sentence, but not the first. If raising awareness is truly your goal, there are ways, given you have the time, curiosity, and drive to go deep. Curiosity, engagement, asking questions, listening, getting stories, learning, sharing food, spending time, befriending, etc for the purpose of understanding and informing would be a great start. I don't view that as difficult... www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJHingel Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 <p>Brad, the "wider context" is exactly what counts.<br> To take it to the extreme again: whatever happens between the homeless person and the photographer, resulting in a shot of a smiling homeless is not that context.It can only be avery small part of it at best. It is much more complicated than that.<br> A full documentary on the individual and an in-depth understand of the great variety of personal situations, and life stories, of homeless people, bring us nearer to that context.<br> Some of Pace's pictures could be applied within such broader documentations. The picture and actions I referred to ( <a href="http://www.theparliament.com/latest-news/article/newsarticle/homeless-people-excluded-from-european-rights/#.UdPuHhb2x5U" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">as here</a>, again) can too, according to my experience.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 >>> A full documentary on the individual and an in-depth understand of the great variety of personal situations, and life stories, of homeless people, bring us nearer to that context. Yep. But that never seems to happen here. Which is my point. >>> Some of Pace's pictures could be applied within such broader documentations. Sad that "could be" never turns into "have been." Again, nobody wants to put in the time to go deep. Until that happens, they're just easy-to-snag drive-by snaps of people in helpless situations, who are not in a good position to object to being photographed. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJHingel Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 <p><em>""they're just easy-to-snag drive-by snaps of people in helpless situations, who are not in a good position to object to being photographed.""</em><br> I agree on that, but on the other hand if the "street" is the subject, homeless people are part of it and should not be hidden away? </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 >>> I agree on that, but on the other hand if the "street" is the subject, homeless people are part of it and should not be hidden away? But the subject was shooting the homeless for "social change" and "raising awareness." I've yet to see photos presented here in a context that does that. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJHingel Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 <p>As you wrote yourself, Brad, the context needs to be presented before any social change can be envisaged. No photo alone can do justice to the complexity of the context. A photo of a homeless guy looking kindly toward the photographer could eventually highlight the human dimension of homelessness and maybe also indicate a privileged relationship to the photographer if that is of interest, whereas a picture of homeless people sleeping rough, could highlight elements of their general living conditions.<br /> A vast array of different photos would be needed, supported by other means of documentation, written or oral, to communicate the full complexity of homelessness before such documentation could eventually bring "social change".<br /> I my eyes, several photos that have been presented in this forum throughout the last years, would be well suited for the purpose.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Anders, you are making my point that I've been harping on above. Again, I've yet to see anyone here who claims to be raising awareness or photographing for social change of the homeless to actually go deep. That means spending the time and put together a project that informs the larger population who already knows there is a homeless issue, having already encountered the imagery first-hand walking down the sidewalk. So far, it's all framed in "could" rather than "has." Talk is cheap... As I said above, it isn't difficult. It just takes time, caring, and a personal commitment to see such a project through. I can imagine a half dozen ways one could proceed if the issue is really something close to their heart. So far, with respect to those wanting to raise awareness, I only see easy low- hanging fruit snagged from the superior point of view of the drive-by snap of the disadvantaged in helpless situations. Taken, I believe, because people in such situations are easy to shoot close without risk of confrontation. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 <p>Brad says "snaps of people in helpless situations, who are not in a good position to object to being photographed."<br /> This doesn't always ring true in LA. I can count on one hand the number of times somebody seriously flipped out at me for shooting in the street. Three of these occasions involved homeless people BUT...they were not the subject of my photograph, nor were they even in the frame. In fact, I wasn't even in the process of taking a picture on two of these occasions, I was simply walking down the street when they (individuals) came up to me and had a major hissy fit because they thought I was going to take a picture of them. In one case I even had my lens cap on as I had finished for the day and was heading back to the train station. I guess homeless photography is all the rage in LA so I suppose seeing anyone with a camera is enough to set some of them off. <br /> <br /> Then again, there have been times where a homeless person asked me to take a picture. Once I did, it was just before Xmas a few years so ago. I promised to bring him a print if he came back to this spot the same time and day the following week. He didn't show up but I hid the picture in a book in the main branch library (it's still there; I check occasionally) in case I see him again. I have noticed this has become a common thing...a homeless person will see a photographer and ask for picture and then ask for money. I can't fault them for this; if homeless photographers are as common in LA as I suspect, they might as well try and make it pay for them as well.<br /> <br /> Just as an FYI, every two years some city organization counts the homeless in LA and this year the numbers have found to be 16% higher then in 2011. I don't know if this includes all of LA county or just LA city because Santa Monica is its own city so it's not a part of LA city (even though it's in LA county), but it has a huge homeless population as well. So does Venice just down the road but Venice is part of LA city.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJHingel Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 <p><em>""As I said above, it isn't difficult. It just takes time, caring, and a personal commitment to see such a project through.""</em><br /> Brad, if I made your point, it is actually because I agree with you. The best examples I can show you of such actions are those of the Fourth World that I referred to or other similar actions made by other grass-root organized NGO's which I have been involved in through their support from international organizations. However, those actions against homelessness are to a great degree targeting families in extreme poverty and "without a roof" by multiple actions concerning not only getting them a "home", but also employment, health and education. All a mixture of urgencies and longer term support actions. Much despair and some success but also some of the most human and deeply touching activities which I have been engaged in.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chansonbleu Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 <p>Brad,</p> <p>For me having enough time to dig deep, become a familiar and trusted face, and commit to the level of dedication required is the difficult. Alas, I am just a "weekend warrior" Also the emotional stamina that one needs for an in depth documentary of such a subject needs to be accounted for as well.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 <p>Pace photos were below average at best.</p> <p>He run away from the his own post.</p> <p>If you are going to take photos of the homeless ,other, than the odd snap...engage with them.</p> <p>Empathy, relate....try walking the same path.</p> <p>Then, your photos might have a story to tell....not some hapless photo taken from a distance.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhooru Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 <p>Virtually all the great "concerned documentaries" that have appealed to me, all occurred with the photographer interacting with the people they were photographing, from Eugene Smith to Ellen Marks and beyond. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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