D800 Illogical behavior in manual exposure mode.

<p>Suppose I am using a hand held meter to set exposure. I would ordinarily set the camera to Manual exposure mode, and set aperture and shutter speed according to my meter. Now, after doing so, I wish to have the freedom to alter either the shutter speed or the aperture <strong>while retaining the same exposure</strong>. I am using a (chipped) Nikkor AF lens, not one without "cpu"<br>

Easy, right? Just use the AE-AF Lock button (set to lock only exposure) and Bob's your uncle.<br>

Not so fast. In the wisdom of the Nikon programmers setting AE Lock does not lock exposure in Manual mode. If there is a logic to this behavior it escapes me.</p>

 

<p>You've confused me, Mike. Which isn't, admittedly, very difficult.<br />

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Just to clarify: you have auto-ISO on, or off?<br />

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With auto-ISO on, I'd expect AE lock to work based on what the camera's meter is reading, irrespective of what your external meter did.<br />

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With auto-ISO off, I'd expect AE lock... well, I'd expect it to remember whatever the exposure value the meter was pointing at when you pressed the AE lock button, and tell you where your currently selected exposure was relative to that value. I'm not sure what this has to do with setting aperture and shutter from an external meter.<br />

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I always considered AE lock to be a "remember the value you're currently metering" button. But I'm not currently within reach of my camera. Does it do something else? Were you expecting it to remember the exposure value that you told it to use in some way, irrespective of what the meter said? (It's an <i>auto</i>-exposure lock, not just an exposure lock.)<br />

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Dare I suggest that it sounds as though you want program mode, using the exposure compensation to get the camera to pick some values that match your meter reading and using program shift to pick different values? You'd still have to AE lock, since there's no way to give the camera an absolute EV value and tell it to adjust from that starting point, so I appreciate that it's inconvenient.<br />

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I'm not sure I've understood what you're trying to do, though.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>In the wisdom of the Nikon programmers setting AE Lock does not lock exposure in Manual mode.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Why on earth would you expect the camera to lock exposure when you are in manual mode - i.e. have chosen to ignore or at least modify the exposure metering the camera is doing? Exposure lock is not an "lock EV and let me chose equivalent shutter speed/aperture combinations".</p>

<p>I do detect some illogical behavior here, but it's not by any Nikon employees.</p>

<p>I always though of Manual as exposure lock in and of itself.</p>

<p>It sounds like you really want to be in A or S mode. M in for Manual - you have to set both yourself, else it wouldn't be M.</p>

<p>Is it really confusing to open the aperture and then raise the shutter speed or vice versa?? </p>

<p>I'm guessing your after an EV lock...where in Manual, if you lock EV and twiddle the front (or rear) dial and the shutter will change and the aperture will change to keep EV the same...Equally twiddle the other dial and the aperture will change and the shutter will change to maintain EV. I can see what you mean, I've just never wanted to!</p>

<p>There was a thread recently about exposure compensation in Manual Mode, but I can't seem to track it down without some more go-juice!</p>

<p>I'm quite sure my D300 and D700 behave the same, so it's got nothing to do with the D800. And yes, the lack of logic here is not with the Nikon engineers. A and S mode exist to do what is wanted. Or you enable Auto ISO, and then you can shoot in M, change the shutter or aperture and the ISO will be changed automatically to keep the same exposure value.</p>

<p>Let me clarify what I think Mike is wanting to do (Mike, perhaps you can confirm or correct?):<br />

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1) Take an external meter reading, ignoring the camera's internal meter, and use it to set the absolute exposure by using manual mode.<br />

2) Dynamically adjust aperture or shutter and have the camera adjust the other to maintain the selected exposure.<br />

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As t'other Mike says, it's an EV lock rather than an AE lock. What's built into the camera will only do automatic adjustments based on the meter reading, not on the EV that you tell it.<br />

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Nikons don't have an obvious way to do this. The trick is to get the internal meter to agree with the external reading that you've got, probably by pointing it at something and applying exposure compensation. I don't think I've ever checked to see whether AE lock persists across a mode change, but if it works, I'd set the shutter and aperture that your meter specify in manual mode, AE lock, apply exposure compensation until you match the settings you want (it would help if what you pointed the meter at was within the ball park of your external meter), then switch to program mode and use program shift as desired. Without trying it, I couldn't say whether it would stay that way across multiple exposures or whether you'd have to repeat the process for every image, though.</p>

<p>Before the AE cameras nobody would know what to do with AE lock.</p>

<p>AE lock stands for auto exposure lock, <strong>auto</strong> exposure. When you choose manual exposure, why should it be surprising that the auto exposure lock doesn't apply?</p>

<p>Mike, have we scared you off? Have we misunderstood? (I can see the merit of what I think you're trying to do, for what it's worth.)</p>

<p>As has been said many times now, there's no automatic way of doing this. The D800 isn't a Hasselblad, Retina IIIc, Werra 3 or any other of those cameras with an EV shutter/aperture link. However, it's very simple to implement manually on a D800. All you need to do is listen to, or feel for and count the clicks on the finger and thumbwheel controls. A click on the front finger wheel will change the aperture, and a click <em>in the same direction</em> on the back thumbwheel will apply a compensatory adjustment to the shutter.</p>

<p>For example, if you have the menu option set to 1/3rd stop exposure intervals with control wheels un-reversed, then 3 clicks clockwise on the front finger-wheel and 3 clicks clockwise on the rear thumbwheel will have adjusted the aperture smaller by one stop and made the shutter speed longer by one stop - easy! With a bit of practise you can probably roll both finger and thumb together quite quickly to keep the adjustment steps in sync. In any case it ain't rocket surgery to memorise that 1/250th @ f/8 gives the same exposure as 1/500th @ f/5.6 and 1/125th @ f/11, etc. Or you can just read the combinations off the handheld meter.</p>

<p>FWIW, if you've ever used a camera with a mechanical linkage between shutter and aperture they can be most frustrating. When you do want to alter the exposure you have to deliberately decouple the controls, which in most cases is fiddly and wastes precious time that could be better spent getting the picture you want.</p>

<p>RJ: I'm now intrigued that cameras with this functionality exist (and that Mike wasn't making up the need)! I'm off to read a 'Blad manual.</p>

<p>Andrew, its not only in film cameras. Some Pentax DSLRs have a "Hyper Manual" mode which does exactly what Mike described.</p>

<p>They could implement another mode in which the front wheel will set an EV number whatever your hand held meter indicate or you want to. The rear wheel will shift the shutter speed and aperture.</p>

<p>I own both a digital Hasselblad and a D800 and also a hand held meter. The Hasselblad can have its exposure locked on manual mode. The button it uses is labeled AE-L. What is annoying about the D800 is that when you press its AE-L button, the lock signal is displayed in the viewfinder but nothing is locked. The idea of locking a manual setting is a very reasonable and useful mechanism when using a hand held meter. Nikon, please explain in detail why the lock signal is displayed when in fact the D800 is not locked.<br>

Allyn</p>

<p>Oddly enough with the latest state o the art 36Mpxl Nikon D800 you are seeking to teach it a very old manual camera trick that the film era Hasselbald V-series excelled at.<br />1.Take external meter reading to get an EV value at some shutter and aperture combination, whatever you want.<br />2 Dial that EV value into the (Hasselblad) lens.<br />3. Lock in that EV and with both the shutter ring and aperture rings (Hsselbald) in synch so that same EV value is obtained by cycling thru the various shutter/aperture combinations that achieve the desired EV value. <br />4. Buy a Hasselblad V-series camera and your wishes will come true.</p>

<p>It seems that the confusion goes on, besides Shun already said what the AE-L button is supposed to do.<br /> If you set your camera to Manual Mode it means you have to set both the Aperture and Speed and those stay fit until you change them <em>manually</em>, therefore it makes no sense to push a button to lock a value for the Aperture, as this is already "locked".</p>

<p>As much as I know, with Nikon cameras the only way we have to do what the OP wants is in Program Mode, that allows you to change either the value of the Aperture or the Speed and keep the <em>Exposure Value </em>(EV) as when you change one of them the camera's software adjusts the other.</p>

<p>When we use an external meter (and providing we have the camera calibrated in a way to match its readings) we cannot set the <em>Exposure Value </em>directly on the camera and we have to adjust both the Aperture and the Speed in a way to get the equivalent value.</p>

<p>The only way to set the external reading directly is to use the meter with a fixed value for one of the variables and have the same value on the camera, thus adjusting the other after getting the meter's reading.</p>

<p>Someone referred the Hasselblad. I don't know how the digital models work but in the old Hassy lens we had to set the EV and this would give paired values of Aperture/Speed that allowed you to change, either to a particular Aperture or a Speed within the limits fixed by the hardware or the film sensitivity. (I noticed that John has posted a detailed explanation for this procedure)</p>

<p>I'm afraid we cannot demand the AE-L button to perform this function or blame "<em>the wisdom of the Nikon programmers</em>" because they didn't provide a facility that would change the idea behind <strong>Manual Mode</strong>.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Well first of all I am heartened by the number of responses; and many thanks to all for your replies.</p>

<p>　<br /> To understand where I am "coming from" you need to consider that I am old (in years, if not in spirit) and a bit of a Luddite. I have been squeezing the shutter, on one kind of camera or another, for the past 70 years. In my lexicon photographic exposure is determined by the combination of aperture and shutter speed, which is often expressed as a numerical value (EV). When I speak of locking exposure, I mean setting the camera such that the EV remains unchanged while still having the option to alter one or both of the determinants. For many years now there have been cameras smart enough to make reciprocal changes in one determinant automatically in response to the user manually altering the other.</p>

<p>　<br /> My first SLR was (and still is) a Contax RTS II. That camera is capable of implementing "autoexposure" in aperture priority mode. It also has what is described as an AE Lock which, as some of you have suggested, should more properly be termed an EV Lock; that is indeed how it functions.</p>

<p>　<br /> Let me bore you with a scenario where, using this camera, I find this function most useful. I wish to photograph a scene where the background is quite bright relative to a rather dark foreground. I know that just framing the scene as I wish it to appear will result in the camera's exposure meter selecting an EV that will seriously underexpose the foreground (where there is detail I wish to capture). My simple solution to this problem is to point the camera downward such that the dark foreground occupies most of the frame. Now I "lock exposure" to that EV, and when I reframe to include the bright background, the camera does not re-meter the scene; the foreground remains properly exposed. But wait, there's more: If, just before pressing the shutter release, I realize that my aperture was too large to provide the desired DOF, I can simply change the aperture. Since the "exposure" is locked, the camera will automatically alter the shutter speed such that the exposure remains unchanged. Neat! huh?</p>

<p>　<br /> So when I was dragged, kicking and screaming, into the world of digital photography, imagine my delight at finding my DSLRs would function in the same way (well, most of the time). With a D700 or D800 set to Aperture Priority mode I can exactly duplicate the scenario described above. When I hit the AE Lock button it does indeed lock the exposure. By so doing I am instructing the camera to cease its autoexposure function (Auto-exposure lock). At the same time the camera does store the current EV (as determined by the camera's exposure meter) in memory; thus EV Lock. Using this stored value, the camera will automatically adjust the shutter speed to preserve this EV in response to any change I make to the aperture. Although I haven't tried it myself, I assume an analogous behavior would obtain when shooting in Shutter Priority mode (which is a function that was implemented only in later generations of film cameras).</p>

<p>　<br /> It is perfectly clear to me that, by selecting Manual (exposure) mode, I am effectively telling the camera "do not autoexpose"; I will set the exposure parameters myself. Does it require a great stretch of the imagination to understand why I find it illogical that the function of AE Lock should be completely preempted by the selection of manual mode. Judging by the behavior in Aperture and Shutter priority modes, is it not a reasonable extension to expect that, also in Manual mode, the camera will commit the (manually set) EV to memory and thus allow automatic reciprocal adjustment of the shutter speed when one changes aperture; and vice-versa.</p>

<p>　<br /> I am well aware of the various work-arounds, which many responders have kindly suggested, to accomplish the same result. While I am certain I have not been prevented from capturing a potentially prize-winning photo because of this limitation, as the software is now configured AE Lock has no function whatever in Manual exposure mode. (Like tits on a boarhog, as my uncle used to say.) So I am not reluctant to suggest the software engineers overlooked an oportunity to improve the flexibility of the camera. And, as some of you may know, I am still pissed at these same engineers for removing trap focus on the D800.</p>

<p>Ok, Mike, Manual exposure mode makes the camera work, just like an old F2 etc. Exposure is only controlled by adjusting your aperture and your shutter. There are also ev +- adjustments you can make, but leave those aside. AE lock IS completely pre-empted by manual control. Think it through. When in manual mode only you can change the shutter speed and the aperture. The camera no longer does that. You have to go into a mode where the camera, controls either the shutter or aperture or both such as Aperture Priority, or Shutter Priority or Program, etc. That's where the "auto" in the AE button comes in. So then when the camera meters the scene, ie you point the camera down at the foreground in your example, and press the AE lock (also, sometimes you have to make sure its been assigned that function in the controls settings menu, but I think that its the usual default setting) it will lock your exposure for you. You HAVE to be in one of the automatic modes for that to happen. So in your scenario, if you meter on the foreground where its much darker then the background and set your camera in manual. You've locked the exposure. Your camera is going to expose the same way no matter where you point it. it may be the wrong exposure, but it will be locked. Hope this helps.</p>

<p>Barry, and others-<br>

Perhaps my OP was a bit misleading. I was not asking a question; I know how this camera works in all its modes. If anything I was engaging in a sort of "rant" because the engineers, in their wisdom, elected to completely disable AE lock in Manual mode. I thought, and still think that this was both unnecessary and illogical. They could easily have programmed it so that AE lock functioned as an EV lock in Manual mode, just as it does in Aperture and Shutter modes.</p>

<p>Anyhow, thanks to all for your responses.</p>

<p>Why on earth would you ignore the colour matrix metering that's in the camera and go for a manual light meter. Nikons meter is state of the art. If you want to jack around, set ISO to an agreed value...say 800, and then set your aperture and shutter speed accordingly. But even better, choose P mode and let the camera suggest a range of EV combinations.</p>

<p>If you want to shoot manually and use a hand held light meter (not a flash meter), you are wasting the technology in your $3k+ investment.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>If you want to shoot manually and use a hand held light meter (not a flash meter), you are wasting the technology in your $3k+ investment.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Not necessarily. <br>

I disagreed when Mike questions Nikon programmers' wisdom because what he is asking for is a new facility that no other brand in the DSLR market seems to offer, and when it comes to this kind of stuff the decisions start at the strategic and marketing levels of the companies.</p>

<p>Matrix has a huge database to evaluate a lot of different lighting situations offering the <em>best guessed</em> exposure for a particular shot, this can solve the <em>problems </em>of most users but what Mike seems to want is to expose his (or some of his) shots according to his own rules to get a specific result and he considers it better to use an external meter than the spot reading performed by the camera (I suppose that people using the camera's spot metering are not technology wasters and there is a reason why pro models keep that mode). </p>

<p>What Mike would like to have could be solved via the AE-L or any other programmable button allowing the direct input of <em>EV values</em> to the camera when in Manual Mode, and it would be a nice feature providing it could be easily switched on and off. However, I doubt that at present time and market situation the decision makers find it as a selling argument strong enough to justify the development and implementation costs.</p>