Off camera flash questions (did a search, no dice)

 

<p>Greetings everyone, I hope this finds you in good company! I currently am shooting a 60D, with a 430 EXII speedlight. I have become very comfortable with the 430 ex and its capabilities on camera. Now I'd like to move it off camera. I've read all of the info at "the strobist" and while very informative, has left me with a few questions.<br>

1. I'd like to add another speedlight, but would prefer to save some cash. I'm not afraid of manual mode, and don't need ettl. Ive found the YN-560 and think it may work, but I'm not sure since I haven't figured out the setup I'm going to go with.<br /> <br />2. I've successfully synced my 60D's flash to fire the 430EX off camera, but would prefer not to use that method, so it leaves me with pocket wizards or a wired method. I would be ok with a wired method, but am not sure if that would work with 2 off camera speedlights. Is there a way to link the camera, 430ex, and the new flash with a wire using the hotshoe adapters?<br /> Please let me know if you need any more information to help me out! My ultimate goal would be to use this setups for some group/individual portraits (max 15-20 people).<br>

Thanks so much in advance!<br>

Justin</p>

<p>(Mods, this is a duplicate to my post in beginner questions, please delete that post, as it is better suited here, thanks!)</p>

 

<p>I would discourage you from using cable connections. They just get in the way, the connections aren't really reliable, and they are now more expensive than the radio trigger alternatives. Radio trigger sets (not Pocket Wizards) start in the low $20 range for a non-ETTL set, and work quite well. It should be possible to put the radio receiver on, say, your 430EX, and put the YN-560 in optical slave mode - so it fires when the 430 fires. This usually works fine indoors, but a second receiver would be more dependable outdoors.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>So something like these? (http://www.amazon.com/Yongnuo-Wireless-Receiver-Transmitter-Transceiver/dp/B009EJSWJE/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top) and one extra unit for a total of three transceivers? Then I guess my next question is, say I wanted to use the two speedlights with a shoot through umbrella, would these transceivers get in the way of the mounting bracket for the flash? Sorry about the dumb question, but thanks for the help!</p>

<p>Well, actually, that trigger is more expensive than you really need. It's an ETTL trigger, which isn't needed for manual shooting. The Yongnuo RF-602 or RF-603 would be good manual triggers that should work fine for a good bit less money. Another option for a manual trigger is the Cactus V5, at about $60 for a pair of transceivers. They are quite popular.</p>

<p>However, it's possible the 622 would let you change the manual flash power from the camera, which would be handy. I just don't know about that for sure.</p>

<p>You would mount the receiver on the umbrella bracket, and then mount the flash on the receiver's hot shoe. Triggers like Pocket Wizards work differently in that you mount the flash on the umbrella bracket, and the receiver plugs into the flash using a short cable.</p>

<p>If you meant shooting two flashes through one umbrella, then you would need some kind of adapter to do that. That's beyond my pay grade.</p>

<p> </p>

"I would discourage you from using cable connections. They just get in the way, the connections aren't really reliable, and

they are now more expensive than the radio trigger alternatives."

 

Please don't make me laugh Mr. Anonymous. Whatever it is you are selling, I'm not buying. And I'm not buying it because

I know better from direct and prolonged experience.

 

You next advocate very low end radios that a) have limited range; b) limited reliability; c) limited options. All of which

buying cheap an expensive deal. I make my living from photography. Reliability is paramount followed closely by usability

and versatility.

 

The main problem with Justin's setup is the 430 EX II can't work as a master. I don't know about the non-Canon flash he

asks about. If he's looking for a single flash solution, the 430EX II is fine. I use just one all of the time on the end of a 33

ft. cable, in either manual or E-TTL mode with a an EOS 1D X or a 1Ds Mark III camera.

If Justin wants an off camera multiple flash set up the Master needs to be a 580EX II (okay maybe a non-Canon

equivalent) on the end of a cable or on high end radio set up. For radio I use the Pocketwizard ControlTL system.

Expensive? Yes. But also very reliable.

Footnote: I have been using variations of hard wired TTL controlled flash (every Nikon variant up through iTTL since the

mid 1980s and Canon's E-TTL system since 2005. Once you learn how to use any flash control system, iTTL, E-TTL or

manual the results are reliable. Many people get 1/3rd of the way up the learning curve and quit -and then blame the TTL

variants as being unreliable. There is nothing to be scared of with any of these systems. I come from a background of

working with multiple 2,400 and 4,800 watt-second pack and head systems. You want to know scary ? Having a 2,400

watt-second pack explode next to you in a small studio; having a 1200 watt/second monolight burst into flame in a Client's

restaurant; having an 800 w-s 900 volt pack short through a sync cord has you trip the shutter on a mostly metal Nikon F

, knocking you out / THAT is the kind of stuff that's scary.

<p>Thank you all for the replies! So maybe I should invest in a 580, use a wired connection, then have the 430ex fire off of the 580? Probably the easiest as far as the setup goes, but way more expensive since I'll need the 580exII, oh well!!!</p>

<p>Group or individual portraits ... where? On location, in studio, indoors, outdoors? </p>

<p>I'm a wedding and portrait photographer and use everything from powerful strobes to speed-lights. At weddings, and certain portrait situations, hard-wiring is either difficult, or not an option at all. </p>

 

<p>One speed-light radio option I can attest to is the Phottix Stratos-II system ... which I've used extensively for two wedding and portrait seasons without issue.</p>

<p>My primary approach is to place the Stratos-II transmitter in the camera hot-shoe, then mount an on-camera speed-light in the hot shoe of the transmitter ... which then provides pass-through TTL fill flash ... and it will also trigger manually set off-camera key and accent lighting (up to 4 groups). Works up to 500 feet, has a sync cord port for strobes or multiple speed-light connections, receivers have a 1/4" socket for stands. </p>

<p>http://www.amazon.com/Strato-Wireless-Trigger-Set-Canon/dp/B0056MPVZ6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367456886&sr=8-1&keywords=phottix+strato+ii</p>

<p><strong>One note of caution</strong>: <em>some speed-lights have a sleep function when not in use for a while so will not react to a radio signal ... this can usually be turned off in the speed-light menu.</em><br>

<strong> </strong><br>

<strong>Also, be aware</strong><em> that many speed-lights have a thermal shut down safety feature, and if set to full power manual and used frequently in series, will shut down and stay that way for up to 15 minutes. Been there, done that.</em><br>

<em> </em><br>

If you decide to go another route, including using multiple speed-lights in one light modifier, check out all the options provided by Paramount Cords:</p>

<p>http://www.paramountcords.com/</p>

<p>Hope this is of some assistance,</p>

<p>-Marc</p>

 

If you are shooting at events then wireless is definitely the way to go. I've heard good things about the Stratos system,

just have never used it. I understand there was a little war between the makers of the Stratos and LPA Design

(Pocketwizard) over the Stratos' similarity in engineering to the ControlTL system.

<blockquote>

<p>I currently am shooting a 60D, Now I'd like to move it off camera<br /> so it leaves me with pocket wizards or a wired method. I would be ok with a wired method,<br /> ...and the new flash with a wire using the hotshoe adapters?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well thats your problem right there you are shooting with the Canon 60D! :D</p>

<p>I have shot with most the Canon DSLR cameras including the Canon 5DMKII & MKI, the recent Canon 60D and others. One of the worst DSLR cameras Canon made IMO was the Canon 60D, they took out features that were standard in professonal Canon DSLR cameras and replaced that with features found in P&S cameras ! One of the features they took out on Canon 60D was the PC sync socket. So now unless you want a Canon PC sync hotshoe mount adapter <strong>your only choice is wireless</strong>.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Having a 2,400 watt-second pack explode next to you in a small studio; having a 1200 watt/second monolight burst into flame in a Client's restaurant; having an 800 w-s 900 volt pack short through a sync cord has you trip the shutter on a mostly metal Nikon F , knocking you out /</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Ellis thats hardcore. Did that really happen? Having a monolight burst into flames in a restaurant...yikes! Which model was it? Those are all good reasons to go wireless.</p>

<p>Go with what Ellis and Marc are using, either Pocketwizards or the Phottix Stratos-II system...or any decent radio. I use Pocketwizard Canon Mini-TT1 Control TL so I recommend Pocketwizards.</p>

<p> </p>

<p><a href="/equipment/phottix/odin/ttl-flash-trigger-review/">http://www.photo.net/equipment/phottix/odin/ttl-flash-trigger-review/</a></p>

<p> </p>

<p>PocketWizards are the choice of most pros because they are reliable all day long.</p>

<p>Justin, are you a professional photographer? If so, perhaps you should follow the advice of the pros and spend a couple thousand dollars to get everything you need. So you'll need the Pocket Wizards, and of course the 580EX. Oh, and of course a new camera because your lousy 60D is just no damed good. Right.</p>

<p>Or, if you're just getting started with this, you might just try the YN-560 you referred to in your post, and inexpensive radio triggers, for less than $100 in total, and just see how they work for you. If they don't work, you can throw them away, or more likely get all your $100 back selling them on Ebay or Craigslist. Oh, and stick with the 60D for now. Then you can spend the thousands of dollars later if you feel that's necessary.</p>

<p>One thing in particular that I think some pros are a bit out of date on is the inexpensive Ebay or Amazon radio triggers that they may have tried back in the day, and which were, indeed, junk. In the last couple years, a number of those triggers have been substantially improved, and they are now long-range and reliable. You might want to read the Amazon reviews on these triggers. I think you will find them to be quite favorable.</p>

<p>If it turns out that the inexpensive stuff is all you need, then you can spend the rest of the money on new glass, or whatever else you need. And if you find that you need additional functionality in your lighting setup, it may be that a little experience with the simple stuff will give you a better idea of exactly which features you really need.</p>

<p>In any case, I wish you good luck with your shooting. Perhaps you'll report back later as to what you bought, and how it worked for you, so others can benefit from your experience.</p>

 

If somebody has engaged you to perform photographic service and is relying on you to provide usable results you are

acting as a professional photographer at least that's how you should be thinking about the relationship: get paid for results not excuses. I'm not sure how mr "Peabody" makes his living, but I'd hate to have him as a service provider or a client.

<p>Shirts and skins arguments aren't particularly helpful IMO. Fact is, the times they are a changin'</p>

<p>Some of the less expensive triggers have proven to be as or more reliable in use than some more established names like Pocket Wizard Minis that required shields, etc. Wedding photographers have taken to using systems like the Phottix Stratos-II for a while now, and they as much as any Pro have to deliver results without excuses time and again. Personally, I ended up trying the Stratos-II because Phottix made their unit in a Sony shoe-mount version, and PW did not. </p>

<p>Unquestionably, the main Pocket Wizard unit we are most familiar with is a proven tool. However, most strobe systems now offer proprietary built-in radio systems allowing full control over lighting right from the camera. Two main strobe systems have now incorporated the Profoto AIR radio system (Profoto and Hensel) ... which BTW provide higher maximum sync speeds not available with Pocket Wizard ... allowing leaf shutter sync speeds with Phase One (1/1600), Hasselblad H (1/800) and Leica S cameras (1/1000); Elinchrom offers their SkyPort Speed system, etc.</p>

<p>The 35mm DSLRs are fast approaching a time when they will have their own proprietary TTL radio system, and Canon is the first to do so ... Nikon and Sony are sure to follow soon.</p>

<p>Lastly, smaller cameras are on the rise (like products from Fuji and Sony; including the full frame Sony RX-1 which uses a leaf shutter lens) ... this is where smaller radio kit is much desired ... I've taken to use of a MicroSync-II unit on my Leica M camera for example.</p>

<p>There are many choices now, not all are equal, so homework is required ... but to imply that it isn't professional to use some of the more proven new-comers is pure nonsense. </p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>"Having a 2,400 watt-second pack explode next to you in a small studio; having a 1200 watt/second monolight burst into flame in a Client's restaurant; having an 800 w-s 900 volt pack short through a sync cord has you trip the shutter on a mostly metal Nikon F , knocking you out..."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Ellis, you were advocating buying <em>expensive and reliable</em> gear just one post earlier. How reliable did that doubtlessly expensive 2.4KW/s pack prove to be; or the monolight or the wired synch lead you were singing the praises of? I've been using <em>cheap and safe </em>- and so far very reliable - radio triggers for a couple of years. None of them has burst into flames, exploded or had the chance to divert a few hundred volts into my body. All they've done is work flawlessly. So it sounds to me like the expensive option can also turn out to be even more expensive and unreliable - not to mention lethal.</p>

<p>Come on Ellis, all that a radio trigger kit has to do most of the time is transmit and receive a simple signal across a few feet of studio. No need for half a mile range, immunity from a nearby paparazzi pack or the ability to whistle Dixie while it sets the strobe power and lighting ratios for you. All it needs to do is replace that tangled and, IME, totally unreliable bit of cable that nearly killed you, without any risk of tripping someone up and/or pulling over a lighting stand.</p>

"How reliable did that doubtlessly expensive 2.4KW/s pack prove to be."

It was probably about ten years old at that point (it belonged to the guy i assisted for back in Houston in the early 1980s)

and had been worked pretty hard on a regular basis. It was a Speedotron Blackline 2401.

 

The monolight was a Balcar Monobloc 3 bought for a song from a studio that was shutting down. I used it for about two

years before it caught fire. I have no idea of its history prior to my buying it but I used it pretty hard. It was a model that

had been discontinued for about 5 to 10 years when it kicked the bucket.

 

The pack that shocked me was a Speedtron 805 Blackline borrowed from a friend. It was also bought on the cheap as it

was well used. The sync cable worked just fine before and afterwards, it was the packs fault.

 

"Come on Ellis, all that a radio trigger kit has to do most of the time is transmit and receive a simple signal across a few

feet of studio. No need for half a mile range, immunity from a nearby paparazzi pack"

 

You are speaking for yourself here and your limited demands for lighting. My demands are sometimes far greater, and if

not a half mile of distance then sometimes up a quarter mile and sometimes in close proximity to other photographers

using radios to trigger flashes and cameras. It's not worth it to me to buy problems and limitations. I acknowledge

however that i am an outlier in my demands on equipment.

 

"or the ability to whistle Dixie while it sets the strobe power and lighting ratios for you."

 

Please let me know when you find one that can do either of those things will you? I've always had to determine my own

ratios and set them and my whistling is nearly as bad as my singing so I could use some real help in that area.

<p>Wow! A quarter mile away with a flash unit? It must be one HELL of a flash to make any difference at a quarter mile or a a half mile. I think that is total BS Ellis! Come on! Really? <br>

Show us an image that reflects this requirement. Please!</p>

<p>I just don't see it, but am willing to have it proven to me, since you say it is important to your work. Show ONE image where it was important for that requirement.</p>

Prouty: think long lens , like a 400 to 600mm , a subject that is a long way off, and a flash that is close to the subject.

 

It is also means a stronger signal - making for more reliability - at shorter ranges.