6x4.5 Choosing a Camera!

<p>Hey guys, i'm asking this on behalf on my fiancee.</p>

<p>She want's a 6x4.5 camera with the following:<br>

Metered 'slr' type prism viewfinder<br>

Waist Finder (switchable with the prism)<br>

Good grip (the one that attaches to the side)<br>

Film backs (switchable backs, to change from color to B&W, not catriges).<br>

Around $400-$500.</p>

<p>Any recommendations? Google comes up with a good number of options, some making the requirements, other's not so much (some are a complete package, with just the lens being changeable).</p>

<p>If you can recommend something that has a built in grip, that's fine, but the changable waist finder/prism is very high on the list. The film backs, not as much.</p>

<p>Thank you!</p>

<p>Sounds like she looked up the specifications and design of a Mamiya 645 Pro (or 645 Pro TL or the slightly older 645 Super), and then composed the list of requirements to match it! I'm kidding of course, but it does fit the bill perfectly.</p>

<p>Also the Bronica ETRS or ETRSi would match these specs. </p>

<p>The main difference between them being that the Mamiyas key you into a huge range of lenses, often with faster apertures, and also adapted lenses from several other medium format cameras; while the Bronicas only work with their own more modest range of leaf-shutter lenses.</p>

<p>The Contax 645 and Hasselblad H1/H2 "fail" on price, and a non-detachable grip.</p>

<p>The Pentax 645 series and the older Mamiya M645/M645J/M645 1000s "fail" on non-interchangeable backs, only inserts. </p>

<p>Much appreciated Ray Butler ! This gives us something more concrete to look at than names on a list and 10 years old forum posts!</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

<p>I agree with Ray, a Mamiya M645 Pro appears closest. I seriously doubt you find a full system with all the items you (she) wants for $500. However, for that price you <em>may</em> be able to find a body, <em>one</em> 120 film back, <em>either</em> a metered prism or a waist-level finder, one lens (probably an 80mm f/2.8, although the 55mm f/2.8, 150mm f/3.5, and 210mm f/4 are about equally cheap and available), and a basic grip. I would start by looking at K.E.H.</p>

<p>Note that the M645 Super is considerably cheaper than the M645 Pro, and also has removable backs, but at least some of them are subject to reports of major reliability problems. Also, the M645 Pro TL is a little newer and nicer, but costs a bit more.</p>

<p>The Bronica ETRSi is indeed your other option. It is not nearly as common as the Mamiya. but not rare. Whereas <em>most</em> (not all!) of the Mamiya lenses use the body's focal-plane shutter, and therefore can only flash sync up to 1/60 s, but can shoot non-flash pictures up to 1/1000 s; all of the Bronica lenses have leaf-shutters, which lets them flash-sync at any shutter speed, but limits the highest non-flash shutter speed. Really, I think this is a non-issue unless she wants to shoot a lot of daytime, outdoor pictures will fill-flash.</p>

 

<p>I think for a 645 my choice would be a Hasselblad.</p>

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<p>I think for a 645 my choice would be a Hasselblad.</p>

 

</blockquote>

 

<p>Which type? H series (natively 645) or V series (natively 6x6 but 645 backs available...or manual cropping)? <br>

Excellent cameras, but I think that both of these are above the stated budget.</p>

 

<p>The OP mentions film, and mentions the convenience of using several magazines. So my choice would be a "V" model, a spare third party grip, a metered prism and the usual waist level one, and a 645 back (in order to get more shot per roll).<br /> The possibilities are open to use a 6x6 film back and to buy the original motorized grip.<br /> Anyway, I`m not a Hasselblad user (I have Mamiyas), but if I were buying another medium format camera (not likely), I think it would be my choice.</p>

<p>I have owned both a Hassy H and V for a few years. The H was for studio work with a digital back, while the V was for personal use.<br>

I did not like using the H, it's a nice/good camera, but it felt ackward to use.</p>

<p>What about the Bronica SQ series for 6x6? I stumble upon those, and i am a big fan of 6x6.</p>

<i>"She want's a 6x4.5 camera"</i>.<br><br>If Bronica, the ETRSi is a perfectly fine choice. No need to step up to an SQ-A.<br>I have no personal experience with the Mamiya 645 Pro, but do have one of the older M645 models, an given a choice between one of those and the Bronica, i'd go with the Bronica ETRSi.<br>The M645 is rather clunky, not very 'ergonomic'. Lenses are o.k. Not great (not on par with much of what Mamiya offered for their other MF cameras), but not bad at all.

<p>I have a Bronica ETR and three ETRS cameras. I do not use any of them with a metered finder but metered finders are available. The most advanced metered finder was made for the ETRSi and costs more. In addition to the Bronicas I now have a Mamiya M645 1000S and a Mamiya M645J. These Mamiyas do not have removable backs like the later Mamiya models and the Bronica ETR series cameras but they do offer the higher 1/1000 top shutter speed. I have the 70/2.8 Mamiya leaf shutter lens and consider it a good semi-wide standard lens. Where shooting comfort is concerned the Bronica Speed Grip for the ETR series cameras makes using the camera a lot easier. Adding a power winder to either the Bronica or the Mamiya solves this problem while adding cost and weight. I use the Mamiyas with the PD-S meter prism finder and that works well. What about the later Mamiyas with interchangeable backs? They cost more and do not have the best reputation for reliability. If you consider the non-motorized choices Mamiya offers for the older 645 cameras, I don't think they are very conmfortable for hand held use. I might have added a motorized winder for my ETR cameras but I recently got a Bronica SQ-AM in good condition for $27. My recommendation would be an ETRS with a Speed Grip, prism finder, 120 back and 75/2.8 to start out. The Bronica 50 and 150 lenses are very reasonable in price and can be added later. </p>

<p>The choice between the Mamiya 645 and Bronica ETR series comes down to what your friend shoots. In the past, the leaf-shutter lenses used by the Bronica were considered essential for wedding and portrait use because they don't have a limit on sync speed and allow fill flash to be used more easily outdoors in bright sun. Mamiya even built a couple of leaf shutter lenses to go with its cameras just for that purpose. But the leaf shutters and built into each lens, which means the lenses are more expensive and maybe a somewhat smaller collection. If you're not shooting fill-flash outside, then it's all a non-issue and either brand will do just fine.<br />One piece of advice -- Photographers are very picky about their gear. You are really better to sit down with your friend and let her choose what she wants and then pay for it than to buy it yourself. This is even more true when you're talking about used, out-of-production equipment that you might have to piece together from a couple of sources.</p>

<p>Ronan,<br>

If a lens is included in your $400-$500, I do not think there is a chance to find something in good working condition. Both the 645 Pro TL and Bronica's suggested are good recommendations, however they are both complex cameras and without some warranty from the seller or a recent cla they won't make your fiancee happy.<br>

If price was not limited to $500, my own recommendation would be an Hasselblad 500C/M with a 645 back. Much more reliable, less costly and easier to fix/maintain, better lenses, better accessories, not as heavy. They are more expensive for good reasons.</p>

<i>" I now have a Mamiya M645 1000S and a Mamiya M645J. <b>These Mamiyas [...] do offer the higher 1/1000 top shutter speed</b>"</i><br><br>So there is no mistake: of the older M645 models (M645, M645J and M645 1000s), <b>only (!) the 1000s</b> does.

<p>"<em>If a lens is included in your $400-$500, I do not think there is a chance to find something in good working condition. Both the 645 Pro TL and Bronica's suggested are good recommendations, however they are both complex cameras and without some warranty from the seller or a recent cla they won't make your fiancee happy</em>."</p>

<p>Think you need to review "Completed Auctions" on eBay for "Mamiya 645 Pro kit." Most sold for under $500. They're not exactly appreciating in value these days.</p>

<p>While the Bronica ETRS(i) is relatively complex, the Mamiya 645 Super/Pro/ProTL is less so: simple electronic focal plane shutter, sturdy film advance, durable lenses.</p>

<p>The OP should realize that a WLF on a 645 isn't really workable for anything but landscape-oriented shots.</p>

<p>@<a href="/photodb/user?user_id=6882825">Paul Loveteck</a> Lots of mamiya and bronika selling for under $500 on eBay and even locally (and where i live, stuff is usually 20-30% more expensive than the average prices on eBay). I'm talking about metered prism + lens + body + grip + 1 or 2 backs.</p>

<p>@C Watson The OP realizes that and the WLF is exactly for that, landscaping shots :) Or else it's too awkward (that's what my old 500CM taught me and my fiancee).</p>

<p><strong>We are leaning toward a Bronika ETRS or ETRSI. Any differences? Some people say the ETRS is better built while other say the ETRSI is... hmnn?</strong><br>

<br /> <strong>I was also made aware there's a Bronika that shoots 6x6 AND 6x7, anyone know the model?</strong><br /> <br /> Thank you all!</p>

<p><em>I was also made aware there's a Bronika that shoots 6x6 AND 6x7, anyone know the model?</em></p>

<p>If there is a Bronica that shoots both 6x6 and 6x7, it almost has to be the GS-1. Of the more modern Bronicas, the SQ series (SQ, SQ-A, SQ-AM, SQ-Ai, SQ-B) is 6x6 and the GS series (GS-1, others?) is 6x7. Presumably you could have a 6x6 back for a GS-1. Just be warned that not all of the Bronica models take things like auto-exposure prisms. Same with the Bronica ETR series (645).</p>

<p>Note also that before the SQ series, Bronica made older cameras like IIRC the S2. Also, there are IIRC <em>some</em> Bronica E-series 645s (maybe EC-something?) that do not have removable film backs, and are in that respect like the older Mamiyas like the M645 1000s.<strong><br /></strong></p>

<p>Thanks for the info! It really helps narrowing down a camera (and learning about other models, etc).</p>

<p>C Watson, Ronan,<br>

I know they are 645 Pro TL and Bronica's for less than $500 on eBay. I said "... <strong>in good working condition</strong>" and if you take my full sentence in consideration, believe me the numbers are different. I also know (by experience!) that there is a LOT of garbage on eBay. I could not find a SINGLE 645 Pro TL kit under $500 with any kind of warranty or cla.<br /><br>

If you do not care about the working condition of a camera (shutter speeds, light leaks, meter accuracy, body to back alignment . . .) you might as well use a $100 Canon point and shoot: you will most probably get better results than with a $500 Bronica on eBay.<br>

Ronan, before deciding, I would recommend that you check how much is a cla for a Bronica kit (body, lens, back, meter). Be prepared to add this amount to your $500 if you buy on eBay with no warranty unless you want a camera mostly to look good on a shelf.</p>

<p><em>C Watson, Ronan,</em><br /><em> I know they are 645 Pro TL and Bronica's for less than $500 on eBay. I said "... <strong>in good working condition</strong>" and if you take my full sentence in consideration, believe me the numbers are different. I also know (by experience!) that there is a LOT of garbage on eBay. I could not find a SINGLE 645 Pro TL kit under $500 with any kind of warranty or cla.</em><br /><br /><em> If you do not care about the working condition of a camera (shutter speeds, light leaks, meter accuracy, body to back alignment . . .) you might as well use a $100 Canon point and shoot: you will most probably get better results than with a $500 Bronica on eBay.</em><br /><em> Ronan, before deciding, I would recommend that you check how much is a cla for a Bronica kit (body, lens, back, meter). Be prepared to add this amount to your $500 if you buy on eBay with no warranty unless you want a camera mostly to look good on a shelf.</em><br>

<em> </em><br>

<em><br /></em>Maybe, Paul. Truisms aside, "pay more, get more" isn't exactly axiomatic in an auction setting--something your eBay experience probably taught you. Warranty? How long? Backed by who? CLAs can be thorough or superficial, the photo gear equivalent of a "wall job" in the auto repair biz. Who exactly do you recommend for Mamiya or Bronica service? The recently completed eBay Mamiya 645 Pro auctions didn't appear to be full of junk cameras. Of the two cameras, there's less to malfunction with the Mamiya. I have two--both bought inexpensively off eBay--that I've shot for the last 6 years with no issues. Same goes for backs, inserts, lenses and finders. Buy from KEH if you want a warranty.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>We are leaning toward a Bronika ETRS or ETRSI. Any differences? Some people say the ETRS is better built while other say the ETRSI is... hmnn?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Take a look at http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Bronica_ETR which includes descriptions of all the ETR* models. </p>

<p>Henry Posner<br /><strong>B&H Photo-Video</strong></p>

<p>@<a href="/photodb/user?user_id=6882825">Paul Loveteck</a> Buy smartly on eBay and it's fine. So don't purchase any 'sold as is' and pay with Paypal to be protected. If the shipper sends crap, you recuperate your money.<br>

@Henry Posner Thanks!</p>

<p>I should have been more clear that of the older (no removable back) Mamiya 645s, only the 1000S has the 1/1000 top shutter speed. Leaf shutter SLRs had a bad name when 35mm Kowa SLRs were being made. Even fixed lens leaf shutter SLRs were not always reliable and were difficult to repair. When Hasselblad switched from focal plane shutters to leaf shutters the reputation improved. The Bronica ETR/SQ/GS series cameras all have electronically governed in-lens leaf shutters have been reasonably reliable. I have heard that the electronics in the ETRSi and SQ-Ai models can cause problems so I have avoided these. You should not expect the winding mechanism from a Bronica or Mamiya 645 camera to be as sturdy as one in a Hasselblad so condition, as far as that can be known, is key. When I shot my first roll with the M645J I put black electrician's tape around the back because the seals did not look good. I was really checking the shutter speeds and the spacing. I took the camera in for an overhaul. The cost for that was $130. The camera looks and works like new now. I paid less than $75 for the camera with a 120 insert so I can't really complain. One thing I have learned recently is that the Mamiya prism finders for the early M645 cameras (no interchangeable backs) have not aged as well as the Bronica prism finders for the ETR series cameras. Many of the Mamiya prism finders show either a horizontal black line or a wider dark strip. This is caused by the breakdown of the adhesive/foam material used in assembling the prism components. This can be repaired but can be costly. I have eight or nine Bronica prism finders and none of them has this problem. </p>

<p>Ronan,<br>

You never get back all your money with eBay: you have to ship back your item to the seller and that part IS NOT refunded. You must use an expensive shipping with proof of delivery to be protected.<br>

In addition, because of the eBay process, between the time you paid and the time you get your money back it's 3 to 4 weeks. So, if time has any value for you you also loose this.<br>

My recommendations to buy on eBay:<br>

- Never buy from a guy with "no return" policy<br>

- Ask for some warranty, like 30 days. This will tell you that the seller knows what he is selling and has some confidence in it<br>

- Ask when the last cla was done<br>

- Never buy if the seller does not answer your messages<br>

- Carefully look at the feedback of the seller</p>

<p>I recently bought an eBay item which turnd out to be the wrong one. The seller agreed to refund everything including the return postage. There are certain dealers like KEH which understand photo equipment, rate it conservatively and provide good service. I try to buy from one of these sellers when I can. </p>

<p>I have both an ETRS and ETRSi. (They are my main portrait kit.)</p>

<p>Both are excellent. When you see them side by side, the ETRS feels just a tiny bit heavier/sturdier/ more metallic. But it is older.... the ETRSi has a bit more of a plastic touch to the finish, but being newer it feels as nice or nicer, and just as solid. If the cameras aren't literally side-by-side you would be hard pressed to describe any difference between them at all.</p>

<p>I think your friend will be very happy with Bronica - I have been very pleased with the results from the lenses, especially the 75mm 2.8 and the 150mm 3.5. Being able to flash synch at all speeds on all lenses is very nice for portrait work too.</p>