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Long Post Link to Thoughts on Nature of Street Photography and "Tips and Tricks'For the Street


johncrosley

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<blockquote>

<p>He was a Catholic priest at one time, converted to talk show host</p>

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<p>John McLaughlin?<br>

</p>

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<p>If necessary on a deletion command by a subject, I'll just walk away, especially if I've explained myself and my policy of never deleting except if the photo is, say, out of focus and doesn't have artistic value as an out of focus capture (I have some that have value as such).<br>

I sometimes invoke the words of Bruce Gilden, who famously says 'It's Your image, but it's MY photo', and because it's my property, you have no right to control it or me at all.<br>

Period.<br>

Full stop.</p>

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<p>Overall your posts are a good informative read. There is a lot to learn from them. But your policy in this regard is rude and presumptuous. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. This is the type of behavior that gives photographers a bad name. If someone asks you do delete something and they insist even after you explained yourself you should. You yourself said these types of situations don't come up too often. I don't understand why you don't just let it go on the occasions when they do arise.</p>

 

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<p>I have to say that if the image was a real keeper, my best ever,I'd be bent on keeping it despite the objection of the subject. So far I delete as asked, because nothing I have taken has been that great or important to me. So I have no issues deleting at this stage anyway. Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to delete that photo of my lifetime. I guess I'm not so holy.</p>

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<p>Marie H, you are just normal. 99% of these types of photos are not going to make or break a career. I suppose if every once in a long time you get a photo that is really unique I think the photography Gods will allow you one confrontation. I just think people that make it a policy of keeping every image no matter what any subject says are really extreme and not good for any of us. You have to have a sense of discretion. That's why laws are made. Once a critical mass of people just ignore cultural norms the nanny state steps in and imposes those norms under penalty of fine or imprisonment. I think it is better if we don't end up in that position.<br>

</p>

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<p>Jeff Sudduth,</p>

<p>My policy of never deleting is less rude and presumptuous than you might imagine. In general once explained the vast majority of people agree that simply residing on one of my many hard drives to self-educate me to make better, future photos presents no danger or insult to them.</p>

<p>Almost to a one, those who in the end really insist on 'deletion' really are not arguing for 'deletion per se' but they're individuals who carry themselves through life projecting and getting results for themselves through bullying and/or through reckless and/or careless behavior e.g., drunks.</p>

<p>I have a set policy so it gives me the authority to say 'absolutely' it's mine, and you're not an exception.</p>

<p>People on the street can read that, in those very rare instances when someone persists in a demand to delete. If they persist, I just walk away, and most people will not follow.</p>

<p>Usually, those who object to my refusal to delete are simply showing off for their friends their 'power' and their 'bullying', which has its limits.</p>

<p>There may be times when I might be bullied into deleting, but it hasn't come yet; I've been threatened, but in almost EVERY instance, it hasn't in fact been the fact of the capture that spawned the encounter for deletion at all, but some drunk or power hungry person just looking for any excuse for a fight or encounter with someone 'different', and deleting would only give the person a chance to further their interests in causing a ruckus or worse.</p>

<p>Dogs chase other dogs that run.</p>

<p>Powerful people bully people they can intimidate, and in the end, with the bullies, so often (and very rare instances) the demand to delete is really a bully's run at intimidation, and to give in to that intimidation is to invite further intimidation, and then it won't be 'delete' but it may be 'share with me your money' or some such.</p>

<p>You may not have understood, but the fact that I have their image on my card works enormously to my favor (in a civilized society), in case they try to do me real harm, and there is a very, very, very rare subset of such people who WOULD make such an effort or whom I suspect might make an effort IF I were to delete, because then I could not identify them so specifically to police as with an camera image.</p>

<p>It's no longer my word against them if they chose to do me more harm. Believe me when a situation gets in that very, very very rare circumstance to an order to delete, it's not about deletion really at all, it's really about a projection of power, and submission to their projection of power is just to submit yourself to more and possibly very dangerous bullying.</p>

<p>Believe me I have thought this through and have decades worth of 'street' experience on which to base it.</p>

<p>It is in the best interest of my physical safety not to delete when being confronted by one of these short-fused individuals demanding deletion to have their photo. In many cases, I haven't even taken their photo but shot something nearby or just aimed or raised my camera in their direction without taking a photo, but I am loathe to raise my camera or get near them to show them my captures (to show them they're not in them) for their loathesome behavior and for fear of being set upon, mugged, or beaten.</p>

<p>People generally who absolutely DEMAND DELETION so very often are just looking for an excuse to mug or rob you, and if they believe you've got their image, they will NOT carry forth on the possibility because they know they face near absolute consequences; their image will easily be distributed and sooner or later, they'll be arrested.</p>

<p>And if I haven't captured their image, I may quickly, clandestinely (even from the hip), snap a quick, clandestine photo, (maybe from a second camera) just to memorialize their image without regard to photographic value so I do have an image for police in case they rob me of one camera.</p>

<p>Almost none of these people understands that when you're carrying one camera that if they take the camera, they also take the image.</p>

<p>I've been 'streetwise' since I tutored in Harlem in the mid '60s as a white guy and constantly was being 'sized up' for being set upon as I walked through the ghetto for my tutoring chores during the Civil Rights Movement, and I have a sixth sense about how best to protect myself on the street. That sense is highly evolved and far too complex and complicated to explain thoroughly here.</p>

<p>While your post may be well meaning, it could be seen as a little short-sighted and presumptuous if you had read my entire history of behavior on the street (which is all written here on PN, but in disparate places).</p>

<p>I have enormous experience on the street, in war, and in civil disorder, and generally know how to navigate treacherous streets. I also have a news photography background; there you guarded your captures carefully; they were your raison d'etre.</p>

<p>I have a highly developed street manner, and it's enormously rare that I ever get asked seriously AT THE END to delete after I finally have explained myself, and almost to a one such individuals are drunks, thugs, or people who are getting ready to do me harm and want first to get rid of the evidence, which consists (they are sure) of their image, whether or not I actually have recorded it.</p>

<p>And, they do not know or have not though through that if they take one of one cameras, the image is gone, but if I have that day only one camera I might make a point of replacing the chip and making it known.</p>

<p>If I had a 'I'll delete if I'm bullied enough' policy or 'if you're a loathsome enough drunk', people I encounter will smell that and smell and see me making the calculation and the result is that will result in their escalating bad behavior to force me to make the decision in their favor.</p>

<p>Instead, I am firm, quiet and absolute. I'm also quite and reasoned. I don't escalate. I'm calm, and firm, respectful, and polite and thank them for 'understanding' even (in those rare circumstances) if they don't.</p>

<p>The result is unless someone is sizing me up to attack, bully, or rob me, it is almost never that someone asks me absolutely to delete.</p>

<p>There have been about five such incidents in ten years, and in each instance, which I have reviewed over and over again in my mind, I made the correct decision not to delete.</p>

<p>'Deletion demands in each instance' really were not about 'the photo' but about bullying attempts which I resisted, and had I given in, I was in for worse.</p>

<p>Frankly most people don't give a damn, really, and of most of the rest, their 'giving a damn' is mostly a ruse to allow them to try to escalate. If they see you making a calculation that you might delete if they escalate enough, they will escalate, but if they see that you're absolutely FIRM they will not escalate in almost all circumstance.</p>

<p>Not delelting and clearly and firmly communicating that fact in a polite and sometimes smiling manner (where appropriate) delivered with a joke or josh, (where it can be done appropriately) is the best deterrent.</p>

<p>I am extraordinarily adept on the street in dealing with possibly hostile individuals, and as a result such instances are extraordinarily rare.</p>

<p>In fact, I make so many new friends on the street that so often I cannot count how often I've heard my name called out on the street by people who I've traded a few words with, maybe photographed, or shared a view of their friends' photographs, or otherwise had some interaction with, and to them, I am their friend.</p>

<p>Often I cannot remember them, or my memory of them must be from years ago.</p>

<p>Your post suggests that I behave in some sort of simplistic manner; when in fact there is enormous history and thought given to my reaction and policy.</p>

<p>I want to emphasize that if I were working in first world subSaharan Africa in an area of hostilities, I would have an entirely different reaction, and the no-deletion policy would not be firm at all.</p>

<p>My 'no deletion' policy depends in part on the fact that there is an established local constabulary, and that it will react, if not now, eventually, against thugs, and that thugs know that.</p>

<p>If that is not in existence, my policy suddenly becomes flexible.</p>

<p>I've been shot; it hurts.</p>

<p>Words and threats are different than being accosted with guns and knives, and my policy becomes very flexible if accosted with the latter.</p>

<p>I'm not a fool.</p>

<p>And because I have such a good street manner, you would have no problem following me on the street; even initial detractors can be converted to supporter in so many cases.</p>

<p>I get approached on the street by a very large number of those I once encountered or their friends, who want me to photograph them (or just talk to me), and that is the ultimate test of my success in being welcome on the street, in my view.</p>

<p>Those whom I have captured in a great number of cases (and their friends) very, very often look up my work in Google.com and on Photo.net, and I know those are not just meaningless social words they say they 'will do', because when I come across them again, they very often point out specific photos in my portfolio that they want to discuss or that they were affected by.</p>

<p>It's easy to make simple and conclusory observations about something I write, but perhaps better to phrase your observation as a question to me, as I cannot address every issue even in a long post.</p>

<p>My work is has been taken over a very long time, it has been tempered by working for Associated Press and working as a freelance news photographer, and my thoughts about the subject have more depth and experience than you might have imagined.</p>

<p>I do not make enemies on the street; I make friends.</p>

<p>Where I cannot make friends, I do not make difficulty for the next guy.</p>

<p>People who are troublemakers will use the 'you must delete' ruse to attempt to bully if they are looking for an encounter, in my experience, and in those cases, a simple deletion will just open the door to more bullying.</p>

<p>Life's far more complex than your simple observation gives it credit for.</p>

<p>But I respect that.</p>

<p>I just have so much experience walking the streets, interacting with people, talking with them, joshing with them, sharing with them, learning about their lives, and in general even living among them, that few people who read what I write can fathom that or understand my words in a context that they can fathom. I shape my behavior based on my experiences, and if you followed me surreptitiously, I think you'd be pleased at what you saw.</p>

<p>john<br /> <br />John (Crosley)</p>

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<p>Jeff Sudduth,</p>

<p>Let me tell you an illustrative story.</p>

<p>At one time in downtown San Jose, California they were tearing up streets and below them enormous, very old sewers.</p>

<p>I often ate at a wonderful, large, landmark eatery that served huge meals Italian broiler style. It was called 'Original Joe's. I was a regular there after my work and was well known.</p>

<p>One day while watching steaks broil and watching their chef work in front of me from my counter seat, I saw an enormous cockroach start to crawl up my water glass.</p>

<p>I was outraged and called over a waiter, a guy I knew.</p>

<p>"There's a cockroach on my glass!' I said, thinking maybe that I'd get a free entreee or something out of that insult.</p>

<p>The reply?</p>

<p>'Oh, that's a pretty big one, but the other day we had one two or three times that big. Since they've been tearing up those sewers, they've been attacking us -- it's been 'The Attack of the Cockroaches' and even though every night we have the exterminator in here, this sort of thing happens.' he said in a droll reply.</p>

<p>He simply dismissed my complaint with his story.</p>

<p>There would be no free entrée.</p>

<p>And I frankly had been converted from complainant to sympathetic customer.</p>

<p>That's what I try to do on the street when asked to delete.</p>

<p>I learned from that waiter.</p>

<p>He minimized.</p>

<p>I do too in the face of deletion requests; mostly they get ignored or get an interesting story in return (and no deletion).</p>

<p>Life's far more complex than can be summarized on a simple PN post.</p>

<p>This whole post was aimed to helping others who read it to avoid trouble while getting better captures; you don't have to agree with it all, but enormous thought over a long period went into formulating what has been written.</p>

<p>Good, safe, shooting to you.</p>

<p>john</p>

<p>John (Crosley)</p>

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<p><<<<em>Almost to a one, those who in the end really insist on 'deletion' really are not arguing for 'deletion per se' but they're individuals who carry themselves through life projecting and getting results for themselves through bullying and/or through reckless and/or careless behavior e.g., drunks.</em>>>></p>

<p>John, while I have a different policy from yours, I completely understand that you have a code you photograph by and stick to it and really have no problem with that. Other than the way you're characterizing it. Why is someone else's insistence on deletion more a bullying tactic than your getting the result you desire (keeping the photos) by staking your ground and sticking to it as an absolute (your word), claiming authority to do what YOU want by asserting that absolute?</p>

<p>There are some very good reasons for some people not to have their pictures taken by and in the hands of strangers. It may well be the case that many of the folks you've encountered who want photos of themselves deleted are doing it more to be bullies than because they care about deletion "per se" as you put it. But it would be a major projection and likely a falsehood to suggest that ALL of them are doing it out of those motives. You didn't say "all" do it, so there are those who want the photos deleted for other than bullying reasons, yet your absolute stand pertains to them as well.</p>

<p>As I told Marie, I am no moral hero. I try to be honest, even and especially when I know I am doing things for my own good at others' expense. That's what you're doing here. You're asserting your own desires at the expense of someone who's asked you not to. You may feel perfectly entitled to do that, and I'm not questioning it. But, on a significant level what you're doing by claiming such authority is every bit as much bullying (of a psychological if not physical type) as what you're claiming is being done to you.</p>

<p>Sometimes we are only human and we certainly can't please everyone all the time. You've said it yourself. It is in YOUR best interest not to delete.</p>

<p>I've heard several respectable photographers in various situations accede to REQUESTS to delete photos. They are not always DEMANDS. It's curious that you would address only the bullying demands and not the polite requests, which surely come or surely could come. This is not all about bullying. In many instances, it's about human interaction and sharing public space.</p>

<p>The bottom line is that you're keeping the photos because you want to keep the photos, and there's nothing wrong with asserting that if it's the case. The other stuff is moral icing on the rationalization cake.</p>

We didn't need dialogue. We had faces!
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<p>One possible benefit to <em>offering</em> to delete, when <em>requested</em>, is that it could be used as a trust-building tool. I'm not saying to turn over full editorial control, but it's a tactic which may have its place in certain situations. For me, this would all be a case-by-case basis, but I would generally be inclined to comply with most subjects' requests.</p>
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<blockquote>

<p>"I wonder how many photos Winogrand deleted."</p>

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<p>Heck, he didn't even live long enough to develop all of his film, let alone take a moment to pull the film out of the camera, snip out the offending frame, splice the ends and reload.</p>

<p>This thread smells like one of those that's gonna go off on a tangent of self righteous indignation with plenty o' Thou Shalts and Thou Shalt Nots.</p>

<p>For anyone curious enough, take a peek at John's photos before invoking Thou Shalt Nots. He's been doing this a long time, including in a place few of us will ever visit, and producing some of my favorite candid photos of people... ever. When you review his portfolio it's pretty clear he has a strong sense of empathy, compassion, humor and ability to connect with people he photographs. Nobody gets that many great candid photos of people without possessing those traits.</p>

 

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<p>Lex, FYI, John and I go back a long time, have a nice relationship, have commented on each others' photos, have emailed back and forth, have looked extensively at each others' work, have a lot of respect for each other, and are capable and happy to be honest and candid with each other, share stories, photographic input, and even healthily disagree at times.</p>

<p>How many photos Winogrand deleted is, of course, irrelevant.<br /> One of the many things I like about John is his unique voice and unique photography. What's interesting is the often singular and monotone voice with which others speak in this forum.</p>

We didn't need dialogue. We had faces!
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<p>Fred G.</p>

<p>Your point is well made.</p>

<p>I tell people who wish deletion my intentions, and I try always to be honest. </p>

<p>I wish to keep the photos (1) because it's my photo and will help me develop my skills; I can study the photo and what's right and wrong with it to determine how to shoot better, later, and I explain that. (2) if I have no intent to display it, I tell people that, and tell them I have over 40 hard drives (known as Winchesters where I often shoot) and that it's just going to take up space on one of those where some day I can review it; (3) for 99% of those who made a request that's sincere, that answer simply quiets them because they can see I'm sincere - they're satisfied. (4) I tell them if I plan to or might display it, and then I try to tell them why it's a good photo, and for those particular photos I use great care whether or not I'll show them to a subject to avoid someone telling me 'delete' and avoid arguments.</p>

<p>If I get any slight idea a subject might want me to delete a photo I've taken that I might want to display, if there's the slightest question a subject might say 'delete' that subject is just not going to see that photo, unless it's part of a mutual session where I've made a commitment to show captures to subjects, and usually I make such a commitment only to show one or two photos as a sample of captures to subjects. </p>

<p>In the course of five minutes, I night take from 3 to 50 photos many from different angles, some differing backgrounds, differing settings, and/or differing camera/lenses even when I'm working up close, say, taking street portraits with a super wide angle. </p>

<p>Only a rare subject wants to look at 50 photos of themselves, so I'll choose one or a select few on camera that show the subject in best light. I do the editing.</p>

<p>By that time my relationship with the individual is so well cemented that the idea they night ask for deletion is simply unthinkable, unless they're with a group, been drinking, or somehow they 'turn on me' in order to impress their buddies and try to make a display of how they can 'turn' on me, and 'boss me around' as a show of power of 'fun' for their friends or conversely those nearby they might want to intimidate and want to view an example of how they exert 'power'. -- that happens every once in a blue moon and it's where my policy of absolutely NO DELETIONS comes into being. </p>

<p>Many times at the outset of shooting, I'll intone 'I DO NOT DELELTE, so don't ask me.'</p>

<p>From time to time, no matter what I've written above, if I've done something that might be taken as being really rude and callow such as almost jumping out of a crowd to take a photo of momma's kid or momma and her kid, I'll immediately show her the photo and if it's good, tell her so and still offer to delete on the spot as I apologize for my behavior, explaining that the moment was so precious for me as an enthusiastic and vastly experienced photographer I just could not let it go by, I'll show it to you, momma, and ask your indulgence -- you can request deletion, and I will, but please don't because it's a wonderful photo, and here is where I'll break another rule (one I have in place because of way too many requests and no secretarial help) I'll offer to e-mail mom a copy, if she accedes to my request.</p>

<p>You see, rules (even my rules) have exceptions.</p>

<p>Of course not everyone who requests deletion is a bully, but after I have explained why I am totally against deletion even of captures I will merely place in personal inventory, as a teaching tool for myself, it starts to narrow down the objectors. </p>

<p>What's generally left then are the drunks and/or the bullies. Maybe also fractious individuals and some other pshychological misfits. Remember, most of the normal people -- 99% -- are satisfied by the original explanation, and what's left are generally aberrant in some way.</p>

<p>Really. </p>

<p>Most everyone else is satisfied.</p>

<p>If you don't have such a rule, and you let a drunk or a guy who's going to 'use you' take up five to 15 minutes of your time with photographing and talking and then at the end as you're walking away, suddenly say 'delete them all', you're just spinning your wheels, and that's happened to me.</p>

<p>That's why if I even suspect someone might try to waste my time intentionally or is so fractious that they can't be trusted, but for some reason I choose to let them see their captures, (especially when shooting up close with wide angle) then I'll now intone the 'no delete' policy in advance as a sort of shield. </p>

<p>I'll tell them now more and more, 'I don't delete for any reason except if the capture is out of focus and not always then, and I do that later at home or in my hotel room.</p>

<p>I might take 1,000 photos and occasionally, display maybe from 1 out of 200 to 1 of 2,000 (not always specifying where), so I say to a potential objector 'YOU CAN GUESS YOUR CHANCES OF WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOUR PHOTO BASED ON THOSE ODDS', and I don't mislead. If I think I'm going to post, I don't lie. I usually know then if I am or am not going to display.</p>

<p>Being sincere and honest is a very important part of this equation.</p>

<p>By the way, HOW MANY VIEWS DID WINOGRAND LET SUBJECTS HAVE OF HIS CAPTURES ON HIS CAMERA? [thanks Lex!]</p>

<p>Viewing a capture is a privilege, not a right unless it's a negotiated right -- part of a quid pro quo for my being allowed to use the person as a subject AND their cooperation.</p>

<p>For distant subjects or if there's no express agreement, subjects have no right to see their capture at all, and I just do not show unless I feel like it. Many times if it's good I do feel like it, but it's my choice.</p>

<p>From time to time when I get a really good capture, I'll wiggle a finger at someone ('come here' says the finger quietly), and an unknowing subject may come. '</p>

<p>I'll show them the capture and almost invariably I'm rewarded. Sometimes they call their friends over. I've made lifelong friends from such people. </p>

<p>People seldom forget such small niceties, and I'm often repaid from 'strangers' that turn out to be 'friends' I didn't know I had.</p>

<p>Sometimes years later.</p>

<p>I took what I thought was a great photo of three seated young women in a very crowded McDonald's with the camera being held by the hand NOT holding my tray. </p>

<p>I wanted to show it to them, sat down with them, and over a year later we're still seeing each other and Skyping. </p>

<p>They're wonderful, all recent doctors/psychologists/med school graduates at age 25/26 and among the future leaders of Ukraine.</p>

<p>I had no intent of using taking their photo(s) to meet them, nor had I even glanced at how pretty they were. I've been rewarded by being escorted around Kyiv by young, beautiful, smart women and being taken more than a few places as a guest. </p>

<p>I shared because it was safe, it was a good capture, it seemed like a nice thing to do, and I felt like sharing, and not because they were pretty young women, but because I want my subjects when possible to appreciate that they can be the stars of a good photo whether or not they're 'pretty' or just have 'character' that has been captured well.</p>

<p>I have a lot of fun on the street, and when I'm having fun, I like to share that too.</p>

<p>You may have a false notion of my manner on the street based on what's written above, as it's about some very serious issues. </p>

<p>By my forthright and vigilant attitude, I think I avoided being murdered by the Dnipropetrovsk mass murderers in what's now known as the Dnipropetrovsk Massacre. These two young robbers killed over 20 persons in about as many days in a place where I was well known, carried large amounts of very expensive equipment, and those two youths were actively murdering (and the media suppressed it). </p>

<p>See the article in Wikipedia, compare place and posting times for some of my Dnipropetrovsk photos, and see how they overlap.</p>

<p>The two are now in prison for life. </p>

<p>I look out for my safety, and that's one instance where I think with justification it probably saved my life, as those two mass murderers were killing for things to sell as well as the thrill, but only killing the not so vigilant.</p>

<p>I was vigilant and always am (and never even have a drink while photographing).</p>

<p>I share when I can. As I've written, it's usually the person that I've NOT photographed who is the most dangerous. </p>

<p>Such a person can THINK they've been photographed and demand deletion when in fact they've not been photographed, but they're dangerous people -- possibly have a grudge against photographers as paparazzi, and in many cases may have serious and dangerously violent psychiatric problems that have you the photographer as the focus.</p>

<p>It's dangerous to get close enough to show captures to such individuals, as for some no amount of reasoning is going to work since, many such people are beyond reasoning with their irrational fixed ideas. </p>

<p>You may have photographed the person next to them or behind them or maybe just a special kind of door handle somewhere near them that caught your photographic attention for a collection you're making, but in their mind, you've invaded them, and they're hostile from the start.</p>

<p>You're a fool to let such persons get close enough to start viewing your captures to show they're not on them, as one hostile behavior from such individuals can quickly turn to another and that can be more hostile and even dangerous. </p>

<p>A 'look' can also turn into a 'grab' of your equipment, or pushing you down, then a grab, or worse. (I've had it tried on me, so don't tell me it's not possible).</p>

<p>Of course, I'm talking about aberrant individuals, but the world's loaded with people and a certain number of them are going to be aberrant by definition. <br>

As a street photographer, you've got to be prepared for the occasional aberrant person and his/her abnormal psychology/psychiatric condition, which suddenly may become focused irrationally on YOU possibly with the intent to HARM you, separate you from your equipment, all started with a ruse (such as 'delete my photo'!). </p>

<p>Trust me, such things have a few times been started by others, but in one way or another they got defused. I don't write because I'm a pessimist, I write from experience, and I write to help you be aware when the inevitable happens to you. Deletion may be kind and what you will willingly do for God's fellow creatures, but often for certain persons demanding deletion, it's simply a way to get close to you to allow them to feel you out to see if they can somehow screw with you, maybe steal from you or maybe harm you. </p>

<p>You answer may be to stand your ground (especially if there's nowhere to run) or to flee.</p>

<p>Most criminals are cowards and will back down if someone stands their ground.</p>

<p>However the smart individual knows when to run or simply to step out into traffic or wheel and go the opposite direction into a crowd, or duck into a building where there's a security guard.</p>

<p>I've done all those things when people hve been threatening, and it certainly often had nothing to do with 'deletion'.</p>

<p>Each situation depends on particular circumstances; there is no particular 'right' answer, just as all such persons are going to be quite different from each other.</p>

<p>I have all sort of street skills, but am not immune from harm.</p>

<p>I've been shot. </p>

<p>It hurts. </p>

<p>When I wasn't photographing, some guy named Paddy, a right wing Republican in the times of Viet Nam and a 'hawk' for the war, saw me limping with cane (for my bullet wound), decided I was a campus protestor (I wasn't), and he and a car full of his Irish drinking pals started chasing the limping me with tire irons and car jacks intending to beat me to death. </p>

<p>Luckily I was able to duck into a Barnard College residence hall that had a guard, cops were summoned, and Paddy and his pals were arrested. I cheated death, just barely.<br>

There was no chance to negotiate. </p>

<p>They were drunk, I was limping (like a wounded gazelle?) and these predators were going to down easy prey, and make known their anti-student protestor views, but the only problem was they were simply wrong; I wasn't a student protestor. (In fact I was an assistant to a University Vice President).</p>

<p>I've been in war with bombs exploding, phosphorus flares drifting on parachutes overhead, tracer bullets from machine guns piercing night's blackness directed most often at 'NOBODY' really except to assuage the machine gunner's fears of the night and the black pajammaed Viet Cong.</p>

<p>I've learned certain skills many do not have.</p>

<p>I'm alert on the street.</p>

<p>I can often sense with a person on the street when their initial promise of being 'safe' begins to change to 'unsafe', and I am not afraid to move away, often fast, often making a quick excuse (sometime any excuse and sometimes just 'you're scaring me, gotta go, bye').</p>

<p>You may read that I have spent time in places most people think sane people would not go.</p>

<p>If people did not have my background and skills on the street, they would indeed be crazy to go such places.</p>

<p>I count among my friends, a woman (a former famous high fashion model) who simultaneously lived with the CRIPS and the BLOODS --literally simultaneously.</p>

<p>She wrote an award-winning book about her experiences.</p>

<p>Both rival gangs took her in and shared their lives with her for her book, knowing that she was fraternizing with their most hated enemy rival gang members.</p>

<p>They respected her Chutzpah!</p>

<p>She was safe, because she was street wise. <br>

See below why.</p>

<p>She was fearless and she was forthright.</p>

<p>I met her again in January; I saw her at the LA Photo Fair, unexpectedly with her boyfriend, an exhibited photographer.</p>

<p>She still maintains her relationship with members of both gangs who have 'left' those gangs for other lives, but who still are in those gangs for life. I don't question her much about that.</p>

<p>Other than for publication, she maintains her silence. Her award winning book was once (and still may be) required reading in LA schools, and is a landmark book about gang and immigrant culture. </p>

<p>[i won't name her or the book.]</p>

<p>She was safe in part because with her fearlessness -- both rival gangs were unable to smell on her any fear, and that they respected.</p>

<p>Bullies and those who live by intimidation will often try to instill fear, and like dogs, if they smell fear, they begin the chase. The small of fear on a mammal seen as possible prey (such as a photographer alone at night isolated and carrying large, expensive cameras) is somewhat akin to the blood in water that sends sharks into a feeding frenzy.</p>

<p>If the predator smells or senses fear, it's natural to escalate the situation, and that does not necessarily stop at the demand for a photographer to delete photos; that's just the first step.</p>

<p>If one deletes, one may have one's money demanded, one's equipment stripped, and maybe end up at the side of the road.</p>

<p>I met a tough guy biker from the Northwestern United States who surely had stomped a few people in the US as part of his bike gang activities. He went to Odessa, Ukraine, a port city where I never had any problems. He got very drunk. Twice in the course of two weeks he got rolled, once by his own cab driver who drove by a friend's house, picked up a friend, and together on a remote road they stripped the tough guy US outlaw bike gang biker, shoved him out of the car without any money or ID. This US biker was tough but he really had no street smarts.</p>

<p>That could have happened anywhere; he was unwary, drunk and dropped his guard, so he became prey. If you're a 'street photographer' in a strange neighborhood, especially a dicey one, you also will be often sized up as potential prey.</p>

<p>Stand your ground if necessary or go your way if you can safely get away without running and starting a chase (the presence of people nearby discourages others from chasing as most thieves are cowards), and you'll short circuit predatory behavior.</p>

<p>You may never even know the potential consequences you avoided if you stand your ground.</p>

<p>If you truly are going to take street photos, you're going to encounter some with predatory behavior or who opportunistically will engage in predatory behavior.</p>

<p>Predatory persons often formerly used a ploy, 'you got a match or a light?' when more smoked.</p>

<p>Nowdays, they can use 'you took my photo, I want to see it' or 'you just delete it', serves the same purpose, to allow them to get close, and for the predatory ones let them get close to you. </p>

<p>This is especially important at night if you're outside photographing alone and in a neighborhood which is not the best.</p>

<p>I've been such a target and/or been sized up a number of times, and in most case I've short circuited potential problems.</p>

<p>'I'm not going to delete' stated forthrightly to individuals seen as possibly predatory is one way to keep safe on the street.</p>

<p>Really.</p>

<p> That's not being paranoid, it's borne from experience and close calls.</p>

<p>You will note that at the outset, I noted you should NEVER take a photo of someone who says 'don't take my photo' because they're on parole or probation, probably violating same or committing a crime right then and there. I said at the outset such people can become immediately violent if photographed.</p>

<p>You don't have to worry about 'no deletions' for such individuals; you didn't take their photos.</p>

<p>If a gun of knife is pointed at you, of course, do what you are told, and if a knife, be prepared to run and fast if you get the chance.</p>

<p>Once in Frankfurt, surrounded by Croatian Mafia before I joined Photo.net and photographing in the Frankfurt sex district which I thought was 'safe', I was accosted by six such men who objected to what I was doing. innocuously.</p>

<p>In response, I took my two four pound film cameras and swung them around my head bolo style on their long straps to keep these six threatening guys at bay. I actually looked like a track hammer thrower.</p>

<p>If a single camera had struck a guy in the head while being spun it might have even been enough even to kill if it struck the right spot, David vs. Goliath style. </p>

<p>That kept those six at bay while I worked my way out of the district.</p>

<p> Nikon literally made cameras that could be wielded as weapons.</p>

<p>*******</p>

<p>I don't show many people their photos for a large variety of practical reasons, so the requests/demands for deletion are relatively rare, though in the course of a week's shooting I may show a huge number of photos if I'm shooting prolifically, which is something that comes with my shooting when I'm 'in the groove,'</p>

<p>I have nearly 2,000 photos on display here, now most are put up for critique and almost never taken down, even if the photo is not greeted warmly.</p>

<p>I like to share. I take photos largely for this site because it provides my photos an audience; if I had an audience when I was about age 25, I probably would have a huge body of work now, instead of what is on display, though large and getting larger still.</p>

<p>I also value the opinions of others, and that includes the insight of many on the street; many novices (and even experienced photographers) would be amazed by the insight shown by many who view street photos taken by me and shared with subjects of those nearby such as subjects, friends, co-workers, etc.</p>

<p>My sharing is done sincerely and it yields acceptance within the 'street', which is a great dividend personally and sometimes in future photographic ventures. </p>

<p>My sincerity, honesty and enthusiasm is part of why in one minute I can spy a person, approach them and within another minute in some instances, have a lens within inches of their nose and eyeballs when taking wide angle street portraits. </p>

<p>It's an enormously valuable skill, and is reflected throughout my more recent portfolio, but some of my first captures on this site also were taken the same way (see the photo of the 'wife murderer' or the 'dignified bus rider', both taken same night, same bus stop, same camera, same lens, same roll, while a cross country bus stopped for a restroom break in Northern California.</p>

<p>I am endlessly enthusiastic. Being careful about personal safety allows me to take what to others may seem as unnecessary chances.</p>

<p> Because I am almost always aware of what others may be unaware of; I am always 'taking the temperature' of each and every person and thing around me for photo potential and personal safety.</p>

<p>Deleting a capture is a personal thing.</p>

<p>For my personal safety, I have a general rule that I just don't.</p>

<p>I sincerely and honestly explain why not, and that reason is almost universally accepted.</p>

<p>In almost all cases, those who don't accept that explanation are somehow up to no good or are fractious or otherwise individuals that one should not spend time close to, and often includes bullies, fractious individuals and inebriates, as well as simply those who want to hang on to you and your attention because they're bored and they're bent on wasting time to assuage their boredom.</p>

<p>Street photography may be simple. Walk and take photos of things you think are interesting.'</p>

<p>However, when people are involved, life is complex.</p>

<p>'No delete' for me has a serious purpose that is far removed from politesse or sharing though I love being polite and sharing and engage in both whenever I can; it's often one step in a neverending dance of ensuring personal safety on the street.</p>

<p>john</p>

<p>John (Crosley)</p>

<p>© 2013, John Crosley/Crosley Trust, all rights reserved, No reproduction or other use without express prior written permission from author/copyright holder, reserving terms of service rights to Photo.net.</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>John has taken the time to write a helpful, informative post for newby and experience photographers on this forum...</p>

<p> <br>

"You're asserting your own desires at the expense of someone who's asked you not to." Fred</p>

<p> <br>

Why Fred has decided to challenge him in a" hard way" about his personnel choice not to delete photos smacks of a" holier than thou attitude". There is plenty to discuss about John's post why the ethics issue?</p>

<p>It is very obvious to anyone who has been on PN for a while that Fred in any discussions on "street photography" always plays the moral card "holier than thou".</p>

<p> <br>

"What's interesting is the often singular and monotone voice with which others speak in this forum." Fred.</p>

<p>No need to attack the forum, Fred. Why would you want to do that?</p>

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<p>Fred G.</p>

<p>I have one great exception to my 'don't delete' policy.</p>

<p>I once hired a model.</p>

<p>She was great as a model; she was pretty enough but more than that her look was always nuanced and literally changed within fractions of a second which presented an ever-changing challenge to me -- to catch 'just that moment' which might never be seen again, and that moment might last mere fractions of a second.</p>

<p>She never looked the same twice, but did not use elaborate makeup or hair styles. You might pass her on the street and not notice her, but her photos turned out wonderfully.</p>

<p>Over time we became friends, then good friends, then family friends.</p>

<p>She dislikes now that I photograph her. She's self conscious.</p>

<p>If she request that I not photograph her, or that I delete, I do, no questions asked.</p>

<p>It's literally the 'friendship' or the 'capture' I have good reason to believe, and I always opt for the friendship.</p>

<p>One can't get too cozy on the street; if one does, one will end up sending all one's subject home while they get their hair combed, put on their best outfits, make up their face, lose some water weight they gained because their time of the month is there now, etc., so it'll be a few days before . . . . , and so on.</p>

<p>I think you get the point.</p>

<p>If you want to capture people 'in the wild' as I do, you have to be ready to be both kind, empathetic, sympathetic, and at the same time protect your captures, and take photos that not everybody is going to be happy with, but still may be 'world class' or at least outstanding but if seen by some subjects they might disapprove.</p>

<p>That's the nature of the kind of photographs I take; it's one reason people like to look at these photos -- they're often of people 'in the wild'. </p>

<p>Natural.</p>

<p>Sometime in reviewing my saved captures -- ones I saw no value in at all -- a critic of high standing with a Lucie Award, found great value. Early on I had developed a 'do not delete' even for myself policy, for fear I might delete something that was photographically significant, and that critic/curator's judgment vindicated my decision in my view.</p>

<p>He found in photos I had passed over from four years shooting capture after capture I had overlooked he called 'fabulous' and indeed when I put them up for critique, they did very well, some outstandingly well.</p>

<p>For the same reason, I continue to mull over past captures from time to time; there are captures from certain days, months and years that have only been seen once, and if viewed again, there may be the photo of a lifetimie buried in there, heretofore unrecognized.</p>

<p>If I followed your advice, and was NOT selfish about protecting my captures against those who wish me to delete, without regard to whether or not they were 'good or even great' photographically I might end up deleting on the street captures that have greatness that I don't then recognize. Greatness is not always apparent at first.</p>

<p>Ask Van Gogh. (No, I am NOT comparing mhyself to Van Gogh.)</p>

<p>For a while a year or so ago, I started going through past captures and posted a few. Some of those that I had passed over ended up being considered (and rated) as outstanding. I had passed them over at first, not recognizing their worth, or I simply had not even viewed them at all, as I rushed for a capture I was looking for in this or that download. </p>

<p>It pays -- as Winogrand has taught us -- with a little hindsight and some disinterest to go back and have a look at your work after a few years; you can't do that if it's deleted.</p>

<p>Initial experience as a freelance, then working for a wire service meant that deletion or discarding captures was heresy, and that NO ONE had the right to question your photographs -- they were yours and yours alone so long as you used them for legitimate, lawful purposes.</p>

<p>Digital created a problem that did not previously exist. To delete a capture before meant that someone literally had to take your camera and strip out the film, which was the sort of thing a celebrity like Sinatra and his henchmen might do -- a very hostile act. I still regard deletion requests as intrusive to my role as photographer, so long as I have been on good behavior. The capture that today I see no worth in, tomorrow may reveal some value I had not seen or may become part of a 'collection' or collage that might have importance.</p>

<p>Now that there's the delete button, there's a new 'issue'.</p>

<p>I own my delete button, and I do not give anybody else in the world power over it.</p>

<p>You may choose to, but I do not. </p>

<p>You may consider that 'selfish' but I do not.</p>

<p>I regard it as an inimical part of my sort of photography as I practice it.</p>

<p>It's little different than film days, frankly.</p>

<p>'Selfish' is a pejorative word to most, but if Fred G. did not feed himself, did not pay his rent or mortgage, pay his electric bill, pay for his transportation, etc., before all else, there would be nothing left to share. </p>

<p>Are those all 'selfish' things? </p>

<p>Probably. </p>

<p>All those 'selfish' things probably are necessities in life for you.</p>

<p>Selfish is not necessarily pejorative.</p>

<p>Exercising control over one's captures over the asserted 'control' of strangers is important to my kind of photography, and if that's selfish, so be it. I don't regard that as pejorative, but inimical to my 'art' and craft.</p>

<p>john</p>

<p>John (Crosley) </p>

<p> </p>

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<p>John, I also have back catalogs of my own photos for the very reason you mention. With hindsight, I often see something in a photo of mine that I missed the first time around. Like you, friends and other photographers have seen potential in some of my shots that I had passed by. I don't delete much and, as I said, have never been asked to delete a photo nor has anyone tried to demand that of me. Though I don't make a practice of deleting my own photos, because I savor them, I still would delete one on the off chance that I might someday be asked to by a subject. I base that on the fact that a subject of mine, after having agreed to pose for pictures to be shown in public, changed his mind and asked me not to use them. I did as he requested. I would delete if asked in the future. Judging from your last post, you and I have done similar things regarding subjects of ours who requested such treatment.</p>

<p>On another of your points, to me, not deleting my thousands and thousands of saved photos on my own volition and acceding to the request of another to delete a photo of themselves are different kinds of decisions with different ramifications.</p>

<p>What's great here is that you and I make different choices, can air those differences, and can maintain the utmost respect for each other. Thankfully, we both like to embrace each others' challenges. That, to me, is more valuable than most photos.</p>

We didn't need dialogue. We had faces!
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<p>P.S. John, please be aware that I own my own delete button as well. Were someone to request or demand that I delete a photo, it would be me choosing whether or not to do it. What I own, I often share. That's the beauty of life among others to me. </p>
We didn't need dialogue. We had faces!
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<p>Fred G.</p>

<p>Your point is well made.</p>

<p>I tell people who wish deletion my intentions, and I try always to be honest. </p>

<p>I wish to keep the photos (1) because it's my photo and will help me develop my skills; I can study the photo and what's right and wrong with it to determine how to shoot better, later, and I explain that. (2) if I have no intent to display it, I tell people that, and tell them I have over 40 hard drives (known as Winchesters where I often shoot) and that it's just going to take up space on one of those where some day I can review it; (3) for 99% of those who made a request that's sincere, that answer simply quiets them because they can see I'm sincere - they're satisfied. (4) I tell them if I plan to or might display it, and then I try to tell them why it's a good photo, and for those particular photos I use great care whether or not I'll show them to a subject to avoid someone telling me 'delete' and avoid arguments.</p>

<p>If I get any slight idea a subject might want me to delete a photo I've taken that I might want to display, if there's the slightest question a subject might say 'delete' that subject is just not going to see that photo, unless it's part of a mutual session where I've made a commitment to show captures to subjects, and usually I make such a commitment only to show one or two photos as a sample of captures to subjects. </p>

<p>In the course of five minutes, I night take from 3 to 50 photos many from different angles, some differing backgrounds, differing settings, and/or differing camera/lenses even when I'm working up close, say, taking street portraits with a super wide angle. </p>

<p>Only a rare subject wants to look at 50 photos of themselves, so I'll choose one or a select few on camera that show the subject in best light. I do the editing.</p>

<p>By that time my relationship with the individual is so well cemented that the idea they night ask for deletion is simply unthinkable, unless they're with a group, been drinking, or somehow they 'turn on me' in order to impress their buddies and try to make a display of how they can 'turn' on me, and 'boss me around' as a show of power of 'fun' for their friends or conversely those nearby they might want to intimidate and want to view an example of how they exert 'power'. -- that happens every once in a blue moon and it's where my policy of absolutely NO DELETIONS comes into being. </p>

<p>Many times at the outset of shooting, I'll intone 'I DO NOT DELELTE, so don't ask me.'</p>

<p>From time to time, no matter what I've written above, if I've done something that might be taken as being really rude and callow such as almost jumping out of a crowd to take a photo of momma's kid or momma and her kid, I'll immediately show her the photo and if it's good, tell her so and still offer to delete on the spot as I apologize for my behavior, explaining that the moment was so precious for me as an enthusiastic and vastly experienced photographer I just could not let it go by, I'll show it to you, momma, and ask your indulgence -- you can request deletion, and I will, but please don't because it's a wonderful photo, and here is where I'll break another rule (one I have in place because of way too many requests and no secretarial help) I'll offer to e-mail mom a copy, if she accedes to my request.</p>

<p>You see, rules (even my rules) have exceptions.</p>

<p>Of course not everyone who requests deletion is a bully, but after I have explained why I am totally against deletion even of captures I will merely place in personal inventory, as a teaching tool for myself, it starts to narrow down the objectors. </p>

<p>What's generally left then are the drunks and/or the bullies. Maybe also fractious individuals and some other pshychological misfits. Remember, most of the normal people -- 99% -- are satisfied by the original explanation, and what's left are generally aberrant in some way.</p>

<p>Really. </p>

<p>Most everyone else is satisfied.</p>

<p>If you don't have such a rule, and you let a drunk or a guy who's going to 'use you' take up five to 15 minutes of your time with photographing and talking and then at the end as you're walking away, suddenly say 'delete them all', you're just spinning your wheels, and that's happened to me.</p>

<p>That's why if I even suspect someone might try to waste my time intentionally or is so fractious that they can't be trusted, but for some reason I choose to let them see their captures, (especially when shooting up close with wide angle) then I'll now intone the 'no delete' policy in advance as a sort of shield. </p>

<p>I'll tell them now more and more, 'I don't delete for any reason except if the capture is out of focus and not always then, and I do that later at home or in my hotel room.</p>

<p>I might take 1,000 photos and occasionally, display maybe from 1 out of 200 to 1 of 2,000 (not always specifying where), so I say to a potential objector 'YOU CAN GUESS YOUR CHANCES OF WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOUR PHOTO BASED ON THOSE ODDS', and I don't mislead. If I think I'm going to post, I don't lie. I usually know then if I am or am not going to display.</p>

<p>Being sincere and honest is a very important part of this equation.</p>

<p>By the way, HOW MANY VIEWS DID WINOGRAND LET SUBJECTS HAVE OF HIS CAPTURES ON HIS CAMERA? [thanks Lex!]</p>

<p>Viewing a capture is a privilege, not a right unless it's a negotiated right -- part of a quid pro quo for my being allowed to use the person as a subject AND their cooperation.</p>

<p>For distant subjects or if there's no express agreement, subjects have no right to see their capture at all, and I just do not show unless I feel like it. Many times if it's good I do feel like it, but it's my choice.</p>

<p>From time to time when I get a really good capture, I'll wiggle a finger at someone ('come here' says the finger quietly), and an unknowing subject may come. '</p>

<p>I'll show them the capture and almost invariably I'm rewarded. Sometimes they call their friends over. I've made lifelong friends from such people. </p>

<p>People seldom forget such small niceties, and I'm often repaid from 'strangers' that turn out to be 'friends' I didn't know I had.</p>

<p>Sometimes years later.</p>

<p>I took what I thought was a great photo of three seated young women in a very crowded McDonald's with the camera being held by the hand NOT holding my tray. </p>

<p>I wanted to show it to them, sat down with them, and over a year later we're still seeing each other and Skyping. </p>

<p>They're wonderful, all recent doctors/psychologists/med school graduates at age 25/26 and among the future leaders of Ukraine.</p>

<p>I had no intent of using taking their photo(s) to meet them, nor had I even glanced at how pretty they were. I've been rewarded by being escorted around Kyiv by young, beautiful, smart women and being taken more than a few places as a guest. </p>

<p>I shared because it was safe, it was a good capture, it seemed like a nice thing to do, and I felt like sharing, and not because they were pretty young women, but because I want my subjects when possible to appreciate that they can be the stars of a good photo whether or not they're 'pretty' or just have 'character' that has been captured well.</p>

<p>I have a lot of fun on the street, and when I'm having fun, I like to share that too.</p>

<p>You may have a false notion of my manner on the street based on what's written above, as it's about some very serious issues. </p>

<p>By my forthright and vigilant attitude, I think I avoided being murdered by the Dnipropetrovsk mass murderers in what's now known as the Dnipropetrovsk Massacre. These two young robbers killed over 20 persons in about as many days in a place where I was well known, carried large amounts of very expensive equipment, and those two youths were actively murdering (and the media suppressed it). </p>

<p>See the article in Wikipedia, compare place and posting times for some of my Dnipropetrovsk photos, and see how they overlap.</p>

<p>The two are now in prison for life. </p>

<p>I look out for my safety, and that's one instance where I think with justification it probably saved my life, as those two mass murderers were killing for things to sell as well as the thrill, but only killing the not so vigilant.</p>

<p>I was vigilant and always am (and never even have a drink while photographing).</p>

<p>I share when I can. As I've written, it's usually the person that I've NOT photographed who is the most dangerous. </p>

<p>Such a person can THINK they've been photographed and demand deletion when in fact they've not been photographed, but they're dangerous people -- possibly have a grudge against photographers as paparazzi, and in many cases may have serious and dangerously violent psychiatric problems that have you the photographer as the focus.</p>

<p>It's dangerous to get close enough to show captures to such individuals, as for some no amount of reasoning is going to work since, many such people are beyond reasoning with their irrational fixed ideas. </p>

<p>You may have photographed the person next to them or behind them or maybe just a special kind of door handle somewhere near them that caught your photographic attention for a collection you're making, but in their mind, you've invaded them, and they're hostile from the start.</p>

<p>You're a fool to let such persons get close enough to start viewing your captures to show they're not on them, as one hostile behavior from such individuals can quickly turn to another and that can be more hostile and even dangerous. </p>

<p>A 'look' can also turn into a 'grab' of your equipment, or pushing you down, then a grab, or worse. (I've had it tried on me, so don't tell me it's not possible).</p>

<p>Of course, I'm talking about aberrant individuals, but the world's loaded with people and a certain number of them are going to be aberrant by definition. <br>

As a street photographer, you've got to be prepared for the occasional aberrant person and his/her abnormal psychology/psychiatric condition, which suddenly may become focused irrationally on YOU possibly with the intent to HARM you, separate you from your equipment, all started with a ruse (such as 'delete my photo'!). </p>

<p>Trust me, such things have a few times been started by others, but in one way or another they got defused. I don't write because I'm a pessimist, I write from experience, and I write to help you be aware when the inevitable happens to you. Deletion may be kind and what you will willingly do for God's fellow creatures, but often for certain persons demanding deletion, it's simply a way to get close to you to allow them to feel you out to see if they can somehow screw with you, maybe steal from you or maybe harm you. </p>

<p>You answer may be to stand your ground (especially if there's nowhere to run) or to flee.</p>

<p>Most criminals are cowards and will back down if someone stands their ground.</p>

<p>However the smart individual knows when to run or simply to step out into traffic or wheel and go the opposite direction into a crowd, or duck into a building where there's a security guard.</p>

<p>I've done all those things when people hve been threatening, and it certainly often had nothing to do with 'deletion'.</p>

<p>Each situation depends on particular circumstances; there is no particular 'right' answer, just as all such persons are going to be quite different from each other.</p>

<p>I have all sort of street skills, but am not immune from harm.</p>

<p>I've been shot. </p>

<p>It hurts. </p>

<p>When I wasn't photographing, some guy named Paddy, a right wing Republican in the times of Viet Nam and a 'hawk' for the war, saw me limping with cane (for my bullet wound), decided I was a campus protestor (I wasn't), and he and a car full of his Irish drinking pals started chasing the limping me with tire irons and car jacks intending to beat me to death. </p>

<p>Luckily I was able to duck into a Barnard College residence hall that had a guard, cops were summoned, and Paddy and his pals were arrested. I cheated death, just barely.<br>

There was no chance to negotiate. </p>

<p>They were drunk, I was limping (like a wounded gazelle?) and these predators were going to down easy prey, and make known their anti-student protestor views, but the only problem was they were simply wrong; I wasn't a student protestor. (In fact I was an assistant to a University Vice President).</p>

<p>I've been in war with bombs exploding, phosphorus flares drifting on parachutes overhead, tracer bullets from machine guns piercing night's blackness directed most often at 'NOBODY' really except to assuage the machine gunner's fears of the night and the black pajammaed Viet Cong.</p>

<p>I've learned certain skills many do not have.</p>

<p>I'm alert on the street.</p>

<p>I can often sense with a person on the street when their initial promise of being 'safe' begins to change to 'unsafe', and I am not afraid to move away, often fast, often making a quick excuse (sometime any excuse and sometimes just 'you're scaring me, gotta go, bye').</p>

<p>You may read that I have spent time in places most people think sane people would not go.</p>

<p>If people did not have my background and skills on the street, they would indeed be crazy to go such places.</p>

<p>I count among my friends, a woman (a former famous high fashion model) who simultaneously lived with the CRIPS and the BLOODS --literally simultaneously.</p>

<p>She wrote an award-winning book about her experiences.</p>

<p>Both rival gangs took her in and shared their lives with her for her book, knowing that she was fraternizing with their most hated enemy rival gang members.</p>

<p>They respected her Chutzpah!</p>

<p>She was safe, because she was street wise. <br>

See below why.</p>

<p>She was fearless and she was forthright.</p>

<p>I met her again in January; I saw her at the LA Photo Fair, unexpectedly with her boyfriend, an exhibited photographer.</p>

<p>She still maintains her relationship with members of both gangs who have 'left' those gangs for other lives, but who still are in those gangs for life. I don't question her much about that.</p>

<p>Other than for publication, she maintains her silence. Her award winning book was once (and still may be) required reading in LA schools, and is a landmark book about gang and immigrant culture. </p>

<p>[i won't name her or the book.]</p>

<p>She was safe in part because with her fearlessness -- both rival gangs were unable to smell on her any fear, and that they respected.</p>

<p>Bullies and those who live by intimidation will often try to instill fear, and like dogs, if they smell fear, they begin the chase. The small of fear on a mammal seen as possible prey (such as a photographer alone at night isolated and carrying large, expensive cameras) is somewhat akin to the blood in water that sends sharks into a feeding frenzy.</p>

<p>If the predator smells or senses fear, it's natural to escalate the situation, and that does not necessarily stop at the demand for a photographer to delete photos; that's just the first step.</p>

<p>If one deletes, one may have one's money demanded, one's equipment stripped, and maybe end up at the side of the road.</p>

<p>I met a tough guy biker from the Northwestern United States who surely had stomped a few people in the US as part of his bike gang activities. He went to Odessa, Ukraine, a port city where I never had any problems. He got very drunk. Twice in the course of two weeks he got rolled, once by his own cab driver who drove by a friend's house, picked up a friend, and together on a remote road they stripped the tough guy US outlaw bike gang biker, shoved him out of the car without any money or ID. This US biker was tough but he really had no street smarts.</p>

<p>That could have happened anywhere; he was unwary, drunk and dropped his guard, so he became prey. If you're a 'street photographer' in a strange neighborhood, especially a dicey one, you also will be often sized up as potential prey.</p>

<p>Stand your ground if necessary or go your way if you can safely get away without running and starting a chase (the presence of people nearby discourages others from chasing as most thieves are cowards), and you'll short circuit predatory behavior.</p>

<p>You may never even know the potential consequences you avoided if you stand your ground.</p>

<p>If you truly are going to take street photos, you're going to encounter some with predatory behavior or who opportunistically will engage in predatory behavior.</p>

<p>Predatory persons often formerly used a ploy, 'you got a match or a light?' when more smoked.</p>

<p>Nowdays, they can use 'you took my photo, I want to see it' or 'you just delete it', serves the same purpose, to allow them to get close, and for the predatory ones let them get close to you. </p>

<p>This is especially important at night if you're outside photographing alone and in a neighborhood which is not the best.</p>

<p>I've been such a target and/or been sized up a number of times, and in most case I've short circuited potential problems.</p>

<p>'I'm not going to delete' stated forthrightly to individuals seen as possibly predatory is one way to keep safe on the street.</p>

<p>Really.</p>

<p> That's not being paranoid, it's borne from experience and close calls.</p>

<p>You will note that at the outset, I noted you should NEVER take a photo of someone who says 'don't take my photo' because they're on parole or probation, probably violating same or committing a crime right then and there. I said at the outset such people can become immediately violent if photographed.</p>

<p>You don't have to worry about 'no deletions' for such individuals; you didn't take their photos.</p>

<p>If a gun of knife is pointed at you, of course, do what you are told, and if a knife, be prepared to run and fast if you get the chance.</p>

<p>Once in Frankfurt, surrounded by Croatian Mafia before I joined Photo.net and photographing in the Frankfurt sex district which I thought was 'safe', I was accosted by six such men who objected to what I was doing. innocuously.</p>

<p>In response, I took my two four pound film cameras and swung them around my head bolo style on their long straps to keep these six threatening guys at bay. I actually looked like a track hammer thrower.</p>

<p>If a single camera had struck a guy in the head while being spun it might have even been enough even to kill if it struck the right spot, David vs. Goliath style. </p>

<p>That kept those six at bay while I worked my way out of the district.</p>

<p> Nikon literally made cameras that could be wielded as weapons.</p>

<p>*******</p>

<p>I don't show many people their photos for a large variety of practical reasons, so the requests/demands for deletion are relatively rare, though in the course of a week's shooting I may show a huge number of photos if I'm shooting prolifically, which is something that comes with my shooting when I'm 'in the groove,'</p>

<p>I have nearly 2,000 photos on display here, now most are put up for critique and almost never taken down, even if the photo is not greeted warmly.</p>

<p>I like to share. I take photos largely for this site because it provides my photos an audience; if I had an audience when I was about age 25, I probably would have a huge body of work now, instead of what is on display, though large and getting larger still.</p>

<p>I also value the opinions of others, and that includes the insight of many on the street; many novices (and even experienced photographers) would be amazed by the insight shown by many who view street photos taken by me and shared with subjects of those nearby such as subjects, friends, co-workers, etc.</p>

<p>My sharing is done sincerely and it yields acceptance within the 'street', which is a great dividend personally and sometimes in future photographic ventures. </p>

<p>My sincerity, honesty and enthusiasm is part of why in one minute I can spy a person, approach them and within another minute in some instances, have a lens within inches of their nose and eyeballs when taking wide angle street portraits. </p>

<p>It's an enormously valuable skill, and is reflected throughout my more recent portfolio, but some of my first captures on this site also were taken the same way (see the photo of the 'wife murderer' or the 'dignified bus rider', both taken same night, same bus stop, same camera, same lens, same roll, while a cross country bus stopped for a restroom break in Northern California.</p>

<p>I am endlessly enthusiastic. Being careful about personal safety allows me to take what to others may seem as unnecessary chances.</p>

<p> Because I am almost always aware of what others may be unaware of; I am always 'taking the temperature' of each and every person and thing around me for photo potential and personal safety.</p>

<p>Deleting a capture is a personal thing.</p>

<p>For my personal safety, I have a general rule that I just don't.</p>

<p>I sincerely and honestly explain why not, and that reason is almost universally accepted.</p>

<p>In almost all cases, those who don't accept that explanation are somehow up to no good or are fractious or otherwise individuals that one should not spend time close to, and often includes bullies, fractious individuals and inebriates, as well as simply those who want to hang on to you and your attention because they're bored and they're bent on wasting time to assuage their boredom.</p>

<p>Street photography may be simple. Walk and take photos of things you think are interesting.'</p>

<p>However, when people are involved, life is complex.</p>

<p>'No delete' for me has a serious purpose that is far removed from politesse or sharing though I love being polite and sharing and engage in both whenever I can; it's often one step in a neverending dance of ensuring personal safety on the street.</p>

<p>john</p>

<p>John (Crosley)</p>

<p>© 2013, John Crosley/Crosley Trust, all rights reserved, No reproduction or other use without express prior written permission from author/copyright holder, reserving terms of service rights to Photo.net.</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>I don't think Fred has played a holier than thou card. I think he is reminding us of a balance that street photographers should adhere to. Respect for the street, the subject, privacy, and a bit of common sense.Certainly your 'average' photo won't make you rich if your just doing it for 'art' even more so. Otherwise we are all just paparazzi which I think someone already said. I remember once I deleted at the request of the subject, it did not matter to me, and there will be many more opportunities and a better image might come about just because you did what was right, karma.</p>

<p>Bumper sticker: Street photographer: Look the other way. </p>

  • Henri Matisse. “Creativity takes courage”
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<p>"I think he is reminding us of a balance that street photographers should adhere to. Respect for the street, the subject, privacy"</p>

<p> <br>

Really, so I suppose we need educating on "the morals/ethics of street photography"...or, needing reminders by yourself and Fred not to be wicked if we don't adhere to your personnel ethics. I suppose to the superior moralist it worth reminding " the unwashed" on their moral duties.</p>

<p>Hijacked post where we listen to Fred's moralising...usual Fred stuff about how wonderful he is.</p>

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<blockquote>

<p>"I don't think Fred has played a holier than thou card."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I didn't get that impression either, this go 'round. Fred's comments were a reasonable summation of his personal ethics in this type of photography. Nothing wrong with that.</p>

<p>I was referring to Jeff Sudduth's assertions, which were full of ironically presumptuous "Thou Shalts" and "Thou shalt nots":</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"But your policy in this regard is rude and presumptuous. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. This is the type of behavior that gives photographers a bad name. If someone asks you do delete something and they insist even after you explained yourself you should..."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Those condemnations sound like they were etched in stone and found on some mountaintop behind a burning bush. One could just as easily assert that such intolerant posting behavior is the sort of thing that gives discussion forums a bad name. It would be equally true and false.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"...I don't understand why you don't just let it go on the occasions when they do arise."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Now, if Sudduth had framed the rest of his assertions in this manner it would have been more honest. Nothing wrong with admitting "I don't understand..." why others choose to pursue their creative muse the way they do.</p>

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<p>Its a personal thing, if you want to keep it, its up to you. Walk away, be hated by the subject, be remembered on the street as 'hey its that A-hole with the camera. Use the picture as you wish, its your 'right' its your photo. <br>

But next rime you walk down that street be prepared .. <br>

And yes, your just making it harder for the rest of us, who don't intend any insult or harm to anyone and who will respect the will if not the right of people to not want be photographed by strangers. </p>

<p>And I hope that photo you got is effing worth it. </p>

  • Henri Matisse. “Creativity takes courage”
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