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Need Opinions - clients hired another photographer...


lily_jones

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<p>I photographed a wedding a few nights ago and I'm still unsure about this situation... i'm going to start from the beginning and try to just get to the point.... </p>

 

<p>booked wedding several months ago/engagement session done, couple loved images.

-10 days before wedding - received an email from the bride that included "i wanted to see about adding an additional hour or two for my wedding?"</p>

<p>- i replied with "not a problem! if you wanted to add one hour your balance would be.... and if you wanted to add 2 hours it would be ...." </p>

<p>-5 days later i get this message: "We have decided to go with the original plan of 4 hours for the wedding. The ceremony starts at 6:30 so I was thinking 6-10pm. Also, my best friend's family friend is starting out in photography and offered to shot some pictures for us so I wanted to let you know that there may be another person there taking some shots as well.</p>

<p>- now... my contract says: Exclusivity: ABC Photography will be the exclusive professional photographer hired by the clients for the purpose of photographing the wedding. Family and friends of the clients are welcome to photograph the wedding as long as they will not interfere with Allie B Photography's duties.</p>

<p>- i replied to her message with a gentle reminder that her balance was late (which my contract also states a $40 per day late fee.... and this: "and thanks for letting me know about the other photographer. i have a section in my contract about that - but as long as i'm able to photograph your wedding without interruption it shouldn't be an issue. (Silly me, trying to be "nice")</p>

 

<p>wedding night - i get there and there are two girls walking around with cameras, i figure this is the "family friend" ...their chatting it up with the videographer, say nothing to me. eventually i introduce myself they weren't especially friendly at all. no big deal. so i go about my night... we get to the group/family photos, im positioning/moving people, get the first couple done and in comes one of the girls and says can i get a couple real quick (to the bride, not me) so i step aside, watching, waiting, 10-15 minutes later i'm finally allowed to have the wedding party back, but need the girls - turn to find them and the other photographers are posing them... have to wait again... so eventually im done with the bridal party, go to another spot in the hotel to do family pictures and the wedding planner comes in and tells us we're late - the reception is about to start, we need to get in there.</p>

<p>eventually i went over to the girls and was nice and friendly and casually asked how long they've been doing weddings, assuming they were just starting out as i was told (they said 2 or 3 years!!).

several times throughout the night i had to either move around one of the "other photographers" or reposition myself because they were in the shot.</p>

 

<p>Now, I fully admit & am somewhat embarrassed to admit that I stalked their facebook pages the night after the wedding and saw posts saying "It's wedding time!! Such a beautiful day :)" that was posted at 2:00 the afternoon of the wedding. I found the page of the photographer, who has several albums of weddings that they have done.</p>

 

<p>What I <em>assume</em> is that after I told the bride the cost of adding additional time to her package she went and hired the "family friend" at a cheaper rate.</p>

<p>Today, an album of images was posted on the "family friend photographer"s facebook page, which the bride shared on her page. When you go to the brides facebook, you see my sneak peek, and then the other photographers album which, if i were a friend of the bride, i would assume that both albums would belong to the same photographer.</p>

 

<p>Again, I can only assume that the other photographer offers prints, possibly at a cheaper price than mine, which would obviously mean I'm losing sales.</p>

 

<p>Opinions would be helpful, even if they aren't what I want to hear. :)</p>

 

<p>And yes, I have already edited my contract to be more specific.</p>

 

<p><em><strong>Moderator Note</em></strong> - Original post formatted into paragraphs</p>

 

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<p>Lily, could you add a response to this thread that formats what you said above in a more legible way? It is very hard to read as it is. Simply typing into the response box will do it, but you might want to consider breaking up your description into paragraphs. Thanks.</p>
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<p>You should have raised the issue with the bride when she informed you about the other photographers. Instead you told the bride, "it shouldn't be an issue." The wedding is over, get over it and learn from your mistake.</p>

<p>Also, you shouldn't assume the other photographer offers prints at a cheaper price, you should assume a "friend of the family" photographer will just give the bride the files. This is the reality of wedding photography in 2013.</p>

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<p>I probably would have advised asking the bride for contact information for the 'extra' shooters prior to shooting. Some communications between you and them prior to the actual wedding could have set priorities, and significantly impacted the shooting on the day of. Guidance from the client would have allowed you to clarify whom they preferred as primary.</p>

<p>I would suggest that your contract is probably not the problem, this has resulted from your reluctance to enter into a potential conflict with either the bride or the other photogs. Perhaps (and often) justified, and often the right course, but, all innuendo aside, their actions have <em>specifically detracted from your final product, </em>so approaching this directly (even though feelings may have been hurt) ahead of time was clearly a<em> better</em> choice. </p>

<p>Your clear, and concise communication on this matter is essential, and (hopefully) you will remember it in the future. I have worked w/ other photogs on site numerous times, and <em>never</em> had a problem that impacted my final product, but I also make it a point to discuss these things <em>ahead</em> of time...</p>

<p>I assume they have paid the balance (plus late fees)?</p>

 

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<p>Strange situation. I agree with everyone else, I wouldn't say or do anything. Chaulk it up as one of the "loser" jobs, lessoned learned, and move on.</p>

<p>If it happens in the future, politely inform the client in your experience 2 photographers don't work well because you've found the people don't know who to look at, or get distracted and want to know what the other photographer is shooting ending up with images of people looking confused, disoriented, and distracted. Typically, it clicks when you explain that. The client thinks... Yes two photographers would be confusing to know which to look at, yes that would make me disoriented, yes that disorientation would likely translate to the photo, and yes that would hurt the quality = Oh... nevermind about the other photographer is typically the reaction. I would rather them choose me or the other photographer and get one set of good images instead of 2 sets where the people look confused or have wandering eyes.</p>

<p>For facebook, I recommend you let it go. The client see's facebook as being a means to share it only with friends and family. I know of 2 different photographers who said something and in both cases yes, the photographer was right but also everyone felt the photographer was being ridiculous and turned into a situation "You're looking for portraits/wedding photographer, don't use xyz I know someone who posted on facebook and the photographer was upset...". That's not something anyone especially potential future brides will want to hear. There really aren't too many brides who don't post their wedding images illegally on facebook I think it just par for the course. But also, if someone asks who was the photographer if you don't say something I think you'll find that's when they'll happily say you and the other photographer. Saying something, it will be "I used you and the other photographer BUT don't use ... did you know they contacted me because I..." not something you want and that hatchet will be unburried and thrown for years everytime that bride looks or shows someone her pictures.</p>

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<p>Needed: Client control.</p>

<p>Boundaries & rules.</p>

<p>Sometimes like children.</p>

<p>Years ago, just after returning from combat in SE Asia, no fears! I was riding my bicycle, got on a dirt road and lo and behold. German Shepard dog starts barking at me. Chasing me. I was infringing on his territory, I guess. He started to nimble on my bike pedal. Got me mad. Really mad. I thought, "enough of this." Stopped my bike, got off, started shouting at the dog, sprinkled with choice swear words. Stood my ground. The dog went running off, tail between his legs. Moral of the story:<br /> Set the ground rules at your first meeting. Be firm but do it with diplomacy. When you make engagement photos have a short business meeting, review the day and remind them of the rules.<br /> Have a persona that says, "you're not going to work me over." Not arrogant, just a persona, gestures, voice, eye contact that says you're in control. <br /> Perhaps you may consider finding a mentor, coach.<br /> Best to your success.</p>

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<p>Been there, done that. </p>

<p>I had a wedding booked a couple of years ago - booked it almost a year in advance. Got the retainer, everything was cool - got an e-mail from the bride about 1 month before the wedding - "we have a friend who is just getting into the wedding / photography business - would you mind if she took some photos at the wedding? If you do mind - no big deal - keep the retainer and skip the wedding. If you're okay with it - that's fine too. " </p>

<p>I said "not a problem" - wedding went smoothly - her and I chatted a little before the wedding - she showed up about 20 minutes before the ceremony - so missed all of the pre-wedding photos. After ceremony we both did group shots and then I bailed to get to the reception hall and get the shots I needed there. </p>

<p>Next day on her FB page - there were all the wedding shots, post ceremony shots, etc... many of them over my shoulder - with links to the couple and to members of the wedding party - with comments on them saying how good she was and that they wanted her to shot their weddings when they get married. </p>

<p>I did kind of what you're doing - came here for advice and commiseration. Then wrote her a nice - very nice - message in FB saying that I enjoyed working with her, but looking at the photos, one might mistake her for the paid / primary photographer at the wedding - which she wasn't. She responded right away, apologized and quickly edited the album to indicate a) she was a guest at the wedding b) that I was the primary and did a wonderful job and c) that had she been the primary - she would not have had as fun as she did and wouldn't have been able to indulge in any of the multitude of beverages available to guests. </p>

<p>She and I are still friends to this day. </p>

<p>Next time - I'm presented with that situation - I know how to handle it - what to do and what not to do. </p>

<p>There's nothing you can do to prevent the client from not telling you the truth. Usually if the client is looking for extra time - ie I'm there for 5 hours and they want a 6th - I'll do it for no charge. It's not like I'm booking another event after their wedding anyway. But if 6 becomes 7 or 8 - then the meter is running. </p>

<p>In your situation - if they (photographers) where indeed keeping you from getting the expected shots, I would have had a conversation (away from everyone) with the bride and groom - and explained to them - "You are paying me to get certain photos. I understand you invited the other photographers, however, while I am here, I am in charge, and I can't have them pulling people away for their photos. Once I leave, then it's all them. If that creates a problem, I will pack up and leave now." Assuming of course you got paid in advance.</p>

<p>Being firm is necessary - you can be firm and not be a jerk or pain about it. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

<p> </p>

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They signed the contract. It's up to you what you want to do.

 

If they've paid well forget about it and move on, or take them to small claims court, based on their signed contract. If you haven't given them the images keep them until you go to court. Who knows the judge may give you the small claims limit for breaking the contract.

 

You should have asked the B&G to tell these photographers to back off WHEN YOU ARE WORKING. If the B&G say no, well you can walk, according to your contract.

 

Always talk to the B&G when something like this happens. If they don't take care of it well you can do whatever you want. It is very possible that the couple didn't realize how obtrusive these ladies were.

 

Seems like a pain, however there's no reason to worry about the past, if everything is paid for.

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<p>You can't really do anything about it now, other than just finish up and give the client what they paid for. In the future, though, like Bob, David and William et all, just wrote, you have to stand your ground on the day of.<br>

<br />I can't tell you how many times I've been irritated by "photographers" and guests with cameras getting in the way.. Sometimes literally in front of my camera... while my wife and I are working. I just don't take it - the client is paying me for MY work, not them for their work. If the guest gets crappy photos, oh well. If I get crappy photos, I'm in trouble. You really have to keep in your mind, "What's best for my client?" If it includes being or acting rude to someone who is overstepping, sometimes it just has to happen. Most of the time you can be super cool about things.<br>

<br />The best way I've found to clearly get your point across to everyone else: Dress super professionally, look sharp, don't have a potty mouth, don't overshare your photos on the back of the camera, and walk confidently. Then when an issue comes up, just give the offending person a "You're wasting my time" stare-down. And tell them you don't have much time left, because it's X-o'clock. The battle is already won if you show up looking, speaking and acting like a pro.<br /><br /><br />Let's face it, a wedding is usually RUN by the photographer. We didn't sign up to be a wedding coordinator; just to take photos. But that's what it turns in to, 8 times out of 10. And that's okay, because we know what needs to happen, and most people at the wedding have no idea, or are too busy setting up their own vendor stuff. We are everywhere the bride is. We are her mental rock, even though she never realizes it. So take control of what you need to get the job done - if guests or unpaid photo/video people are interrupting, take control and set the tone. They will all remember what you MAKE them remember in your photos.</p>

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  • 1 month later...

<p>Lily, from where I am working in we do not have the exclusivity clauses in contracts. The clause (when written corectly) is fine as long you have the stones to enforce it. What it means is that you are the only authorised shooter there full stop. If one one else get into act and you inform the client of that and ask them to get the party to stop, and if they do not or will not and the party is disrupting your work you have the right to stop work and still collect payment.<br>

That wedding is water under the bridge. You messed up by not knowing what rights you have, not exercising those rights, not having a game plan for these situations., not being firm and if necessary stern. Get it right and move on.</p>

<p>What you did wrong was (from my opinion after reading yr words)<br>

1. did not raise the issues of how having another shooter there will effect your work. subjects not knowing where to look. The other one block your shot or worse is either now foreground or background addition. Causing delays in the shoot - weddings are time sensitive events.<br>

2. did not limit the activities of the other shooter before the shoot day (yah need to ask them to be specific how many other shooter they said what soundlike 1 you got 2) - only shoot before the wedding, or during reception, they are not to be working during ceremony, during formal groups. During formal groups, you have the right to tell them what to do ie you could get them gather people for next shot (keeps them busy outta your hair)<br>

3. on day of shoot you should have had that little briefing talk with them - out line their role there and what they cannot do and they will have to comply with your directions. This should be done in a professional manner - with the needless but essential explaination that you have been hired as main shooter and you need to deliver, they have been hired as 2ndary they too need to delivery so this how we do so everyone delivers. Get agreements to your instructions, silence is not agreement cos when it does get ugly they will always say I did not agree to that. <br>

4. Make that formal compliant to the couple. When they wanted the couple you should have said not until you are done with group - the group shot can not be done without the couple so they will have to be there till it all ends. Learn to say no there is no such thing as being mean or selfish - you have a job to do go do it. <br>

5. When it all starting going southwards, you should have step up to the couple and told them that the other shooter needs to stop as they are interfering with the formals when you need to get done before this time or the whole party will be late to the reception. Then more picture opportunities will also be lost. <br>

6. Formals you did not say if they shot your setups - 2 cups of coffee says they did. One dirty trick is to set it up fast, make the loud announcement for every one to look at you and no one else so the couple can have a good group shot with every one looking good and click 2 shots and say quickly "okay thanks guys it done you can go." But you gotta make sure you got it. The trick is to shoot fast and move on, occassionally to stop to tell the other 2 loudly to stop shooting as it will interfere with the shot for the couple. <br>

7, Your sneak preview needs to have some form of titling - whose wedding, when, your branding, and most importantly this is the only site of the official photographer hire by the couple to be the sole photographer for their day. Plus of course contact detail of some sort. IMHO first and last frames of the sneaks are lovely places to make these announcement be creative make it a part of the display. But honestly I hope to BGees that your work is better than the other - infact in this sort of cases you need to put in extra effort to make sure it is. This is the reenactment of the OK Correl shoot out.</p>

 

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