Groom not happy?

<p>So, I've been on this forum quite a few times, however I'm using a fake name, even though I'm not going to say anything malicious.</p>

<p>I recently photographed a wedding on the gold coast (so traveled up a few states), with about a months notice. The agreed price was $400 + flights included (I had to pay for camera hire, and there was a flight mix up so I also had to pay an extra $100). I only received $300, and I was going to get the $100 after the photos were done, but I've been informed that the bride and groom aren't happy with the photos, nor the time frame in which they were delivered. </p>

<p>The photos were delivered 2.5 months after the time , and they were late due to having final exams and a group project where one of the team members dropped out. I originally said a month and a half to two months, but I also communicated delays due to the group project. In finals week, there's a lot of emails going back and forth, however once I sent off the photos, I hear nothing, I send emails, I get no response (So I decided that it would be best to wait after Christmas because everyone is busy before then). I finally hear back and they are not happy with the photos. I honestly don't get what's wrong with them. They saw all my previous photos, I delivered about 650 (in all the same quality). The only thing I can think of is I lacked variety, as I was using 2 bodies - my 400D doesn't take as nice shots (with the 24mm TSE) as the 5D mk II (with the 85mm) so I used mainly the 5D. I also couldn't afford to hire any lenses due to the budget.</p>

<p>I've asked them whats' wrong with them and they say that the people look like zombies and it's not what they expected. Then they tell me not to worry (and that it's their fault not mine)... firstly I don't think they should be expecting a $2000+ photographs for $300 (I would like to get that extra $100, but I don't think I will), secondly, the work was better then all my previous weddings, and thirdly they could have told me what's wrong with the photos instead of waiting for me to chase them up? I sort of am worried. And I don't know how to please them or make them right? Cause I really, really want to</p>

<p>Here are a select few of the wedding photos (I don't want to bore you), that I made mockup of albums<br>

http://imgur.com/a/8QM4f<br>

Here are some of my other wedding photos that I showed them<br>

http://shrubber.imgur.com/<br>

This was my 5th wedding, and I made that clear to them. I'm honestly scratching my head here, apart from the lack of variety (most of them are close ups); And too much low apature [though that is how I shoot normally] I think the photos represent my style, and I thought I did a good job...</p>

 

<p>When the family looked at the pics, possibly one negative comment by a "pseudo critic" could have gone through the family like wildfire. I saw that happen with my second daughters wedding pics.<br>

I did not see the problem with our families pics, but, something similar occurred in our case. <br>

This is the cost of dealing with people, it is the most difficult one IMHO.<br>

You got to learn how to deal with it, or take an office job.</p>

<p>I am not going to try to critique your photos but thy look OK to me. You like them a bit bright for my taste but it is a quibble. I will also not talk to you about the amount you charge. It is far too little.</p>

<p>I will though tell you one HUGE mistake you made. You said that you sent them 650 photos. Here is the deal. I have coined a term for this. It is called "professional camouflage". Among those 650 pictures there were probably a good 50 that were first rate. Some of the ones you posted were very nice. The problem is that to see one of these 50 they have to page through a dozen that were not so good. See what I mean?</p>

<p>So if you had sent them the 50 best, in logical order, telling the story of the wedding you might have knocked their socks off. Instead, for them, it went something like this....that one is good... nope... nope... maybe... my eyes look funny...nope... your tie is wrong... oh that one is nice... good... ick...who is that guy?...nope...nope...uhg...mom looks drunk...nope........</p>

<p>If they had seen those 50 best, telling their story it would have been a joy to them. And it would have been the wedding book they dreamed of. And you would have been a hero.</p>

<p>But this part concerns me. You said, "650, all in the same quality". Well they weren't all of the same quality. Some were good and some were just awful. If by quality you are saying properly exposed and color true then perhaps. But they are not paying a professional wedding photographer for properly exposed, color true images. They are paying for the story of their day. They are paying for your art, your expertise and your experience. Otherwise they can just give uncle Harry a camera and let him shoot away. So the first rule of post production is edit, edit, edit. Don't let the client see a single photo you find marginal and darned few that are only acceptable. The only time to show them a marginal photo is when it is essential to telling their story and it is the only one you have. But make sure there are darned few of those.</p>

<p>There is a trend these days for the B&G to ask for "all the shots". Flatly refuse. Be candid with them. Tell them that as a professional you will give them only professional work. You will not let poor composition, lighting, exposure, wardrobe failures and the like out of your studio. If you carefully explain this they will understand. You should present it as a benefit to them to have a professional do the sorting. I would turn down a job before I would agree to let a client see every frame I shoot if for no other reason than I don't want them showing other people what should have hit the cutting room floor and calling it my work.</p>

<p>So you need to charge more. That is for sure. Much more. You need to charge a price that is respectable and then use it to deliver only the best quality work. There are plenty of GWCs out there on Craigslist who will do schlocky work on the cheap. I can tell by your concern that you don't really want to be one of them.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>And here is your final butt chewing. You said: "firstly I don't think they should be expecting a $2000+ photographs for $300"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Here is the deal. You have to decide if you want to be a $2000.00 professional wedding photographer or a $300.00 average joe. If you ever want to be the $2K guy then you have to start turning out $2K work no matter what you charge. This is not only about what the client thinks but what you think about yourself. If you ever decide to give the most important day of someone's life anything but your best because you are getting paid peanuts then you have no business in this field. Top professionals have a range of prices based upon what they deliver but they do not have a range of quality. They always and only do their best work. So my friend, they have every right to expect only your best work. And if you had sent them the 50 to 75 best photos you took, arranged in order, you would have done that.</p>

<p>I am impressed (for what my approval is worth) with your desire to be good at this and more importantly to make the client happy. I liked most of your photos and think that you have a good eye and talent. Remember that this is a business. Hone your business skills of presentation, work flow and sales and you should be well on your way.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Hard to tell what they might be dissatisfied with just by looking at the small images posted, but I don't see a problem considering these are from a $400 wedding shoot. I think their might be too many over exposures with blown highlights, but a lot of people like that effect. There are also a lot of wide open, narrow depth of field shots with blurred backgrounds and foregrounds. There are a lot of people that have gotten used to point & shoot images that have everything in focus and think that all pictures are supposed to be sharp all over.</p>

<p>But I'm just guessing here and you will not know what it is they think are wrong with the images until you get a definitive, detailed answer from them. Asking us won't help until you get an answer from the couple.</p>

Thst's a long story with lots of different subjects and no mention of what advice you seek An opinion on the images? Client communications? Expectation management? Time/workflow management? ect....

That's fair to say Jim but they were asked and, in this case, the problem is said to be that people look like zombies. Its hard

to know if further clarification on sonething as silly as that will really help that much. It may be better to ask neutral parties for a crtique on this one.

<p>I just can't see how you the photog can provide the ambience...for them to eventually like the photos ? It's mostly a journalistic event, unless someone poses specifically. Sure, most photogs do their best to pluck moments... That said, I presume they had a chance to see your work, so they knew what they were getting.</p>

<p>It's not up to me to like or dislike wedding images, so long the couple are pleased. Nonetheless, if the magic between them was not quite there....then why are they pointing the finger at you ?</p>

<p>It's a drag to get into conundrum like that...hope you can resolve it.\</p>

<p>Les</p>

<p>First of all, I have to say you've got it. As far as the zombie like comment, I think they are referring to the bottom of this photo: http://i.imgur.com/QXRJ5.jpg or this http://i.imgur.com/c2Fzp.jpg<br>

Yes, they do look a little zombie to me due to the overblown highlight and bleed mascara. It could have something to do with your PP technique.</p>

<p>I would agree with Green about the zombie like comment, there are a few that clearly appear unnatural, but that is the only criticism that I can give based on how much you've charged - and it appears that they are as much due to your supercharged PS technique as any other reason. There are quite a few that are really quite good - even portfolio worthy.</p>

<p>However, there <em>is</em> a lack of variety overall. That is something that most B&Gs expect these days. Perhaps it's because you have a 5D2 + an 400D, with a 24 TSE and an 85(1.8?) which gives you (given your setup) essentially a 35mm FOV MF lens, and 85mm w/ AF. While this may be in line with what you've done in the past, it's a bit on the sparse side if you are planning on building a business. Additional FLs will definetly help you there.</p>

<p>I'll second Green's comment. I would not have shown the two pages he linked. The second one is less objectionable in terms of expressions, but the post processing is lacking. Too dark under the eyes. The skin tones aren't pleasant.</p>

<p>You were paid. Therefore, you are viewed as a professional. I can't think of many clients that would be concerned about your cash flow. That's immaterial to the quality of photos. You have lots of nice photos. You also have a few duds. Eliminate the duds, and your nicer photos will reflect better on you. You are only as good as the worst picture you present.</p>

<p>Yes, I agree with the Zombie comment probably coming from the dark eye sockets.<br>

I believe that exact critique about dark eye sockets has been mentioned on Rockwell's and Hobby's blogs.<br>

It is one of the reasons I started to learn how to use light modifiers and outdoor flash.<br>

The two sites mentioned above talk a lot about using a 3x5 note card rubber banded to a flash to fill eye sockets.<br>

The ceiling bounce has both pluses, and minuses. The dark eye sockets is one of the minuses.<br>

Now that this has been mentioned, those who go back and look at your pics will pick up on the dark eyes immediately, and as I mentioned in my first post, will become;<br>

a "pseudo critic"<br>

This is a tough business, I am glad I never had to make a dollar taking a photograph, I would be very poor, LOL.</p>

I want to try and get this straight.... You flew in an airplane to shoot a $400 wedding, rented gear and lost $100 up front,

delivered 650 pretty nice looking shots and they're not happy. Next time charge three times as much and you'll have less

trouble.

 

And PS, IMHO 2-1/2 months to deliver is too long to edit and deliver some digital files.

<p>If I had to guess I would suggest the longer the client waited the more unhappy they got. If you're gonna shoot photos for clients you have to do it and get them out immediately and there are NO excuses. That's for amateurs. I could say the photos are not particularly to my taste but that does not mean anything because I am not the client. I have some of my photos hanging in an art gallery and half the stuff in the gallery is not to my taste but it doesn't have anything to do with my particular preferences, does it?.<br>

I am old fashioned and do not think there's 650 good photos in any wedding, including Princess Di's.</p>

<p>You shouldn't be charging more. You ought to be shooting for free until you gain more experience - or 2nd shoot or assist. You have severe exposure issues - and I wish people would stop calling it "you like it light". You need to know how to work with light, how to pose and how to take flattering pictures. Sorry to put it so bluntly but these are peoples' memories, regardless of how little they paid.</p>

<p>The time frame - clients do not care what goes on in your life. They want their photos. You want to underpromise and overdeliver. Meaning if you say "it will take 6 weeks", you deliver after 4. You never, ever go over the time frame specified - if that means outsourcing editing to a pro and sucking up the costs or not sleeping and doing the work yourself... whatever it takes. You don't delay. It's not professional.</p>

<p>Sorry to sound harsh but I see way to many aspiring photographers who jump into photographing weddings and learning on the job, never 2nd shooting with a pro, never learning what it actually takes to be a professional wedding photographer ... the end result is pretty much as we see here.</p>

<p>What I would do now is give the clients a call, apologize and learn from this mistake. Don't expect the 100 Dollars and don't ask for them. See it as a cheap lesson in becoming a wedding photographer.</p>

<p>If the B+G saw the existing examples of your other work, then it's clearly evident they would have realized you are next Richard Avedon :)</p>

<p>I think it is equal to the other work shown. 650 images? I agree it's too much clutter. It was rare I could provide 100 and sometimes that was a struggle. I told them upfront.</p>

<p>I remember those days of traveling to any bride that would let me shoot their wedding. Many times the conditions were brutal like a beach wedding at high noon... or unattractive church. Maybe it would be wise to pass on a few and being overmatched, and use the the travel and shooting time more wisely.</p>

<p>Maybe spend the next 20 hours shooting attractive classmates in less pressure filled circumstances, at distance, and learning to manage your eposure. It's better to develop other methods, have tools in the box and not need them. Not every problem can be solved with a hammer at f/1.4 and 85mm.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I'll just clarify a few things:<br>

Usually I don't deliver 650, however the case was that the parents who live in Siberia, wanted the photos (the unedited ones) straight away, because apparently delivery is quite difficult. So they knew that I took about 3100 photos (as I was going from 7:00am to 3am), I just edited 650 of those shots, because any less they would have complained at me not editing all of them. (Most of them were sort of like doubles), and I also give them an 'extra's folder'. So 250 of the best go in the best of, and then the rest were doubles, that are still 'good' photos, that are edited. Also I tend to use to use the extra photos to change styles up, so they don't ALL look the same - however if they don't like one of the extras it's no big loss (most of the time they might get an extra and love it to bits...).</p>

<p>In regards to price: I thought $400 was fair, with them paying for the flights and me providing camera equipment. They were graduated students and I am a graduated student. I was not going to however hire a 35mm because interstate hiring is expensive, and that was going to drain the last of my money. I also found that when I did hire it, It didn't go great on my 400D. </p>

<p>I was not going to charge nothing for this wedding. I've shot for free before; however I ended up losing own money. Last time I did an interstate wedding, I ended up losing $100 for travel expenses and $150 for camera hire. (As well as 14 + 20 h of my time). I thought $400 was fair for 3 days of my time (as 2 days for travel) and 20h of my time for editing.</p>

<p>The reason for the delay (and the groom should know this as he did the subject as me) is we have a engineering group project that eats up so much time. As well as finals, and I also had a Microsoft Job interview. I only delivered 3 weeks after the said time, and because they were students last year, I thought they'd understand.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Are you telling me that you shot 3100 frames in 8 hours? That is a frame every 10 seconds without a break for 8 hours. I think I may see a problem. You sould perhaps slow down and think more about your composition and most importantly your exposure and lighting. Now you said that the 650 were "edited? too in 20 hours? So you spent no more than 2 minutes per exposure? That must have been mind numbing work. Imagine if you only had to do 100 or so.</p>

<p>Let me ask another question. Am I right in assuming that you shoot most of your shots on manual mode? Can you tell us how you decide the exposure to use? Also. What flash(s) are you using? How are you determining the flash exposures?</p>

<p>I looked at your online portfolio as well and see that you seem to have quite a number with color correction issues; many caused by available incandescent light. Do you have an off-camera flash? </p>

<p>I may have to correct myself. Do you live in Russia? It may be that I and others here may be unaware that $400.00 US is a more considerable sum in Russia than it may be in the US. Is that the case? </p>

<p>Tavia, for a 19 hour day (7am to 3am), delivering 650 is reasonable by my book. I don't see anything particularly wrong in the blog you posted other than the zombie look in a few. But in your portfolio, I do think your indoor white balance look very yellow for my taste. </p>

<p>Seems like the groom and you are acquainted and sometimes that could be the root of the problem. I think he sees you as a person with a camera rather than a photog. I'm sure some will disagree with me here but I think you need to maintain some sort of mystique in this business. If you give the groom the same set and tell him it was taken by an international award winning photographer, his response will likely be different.</p>

<p>I live in Australia, it's hard to get anything under $1000 let alone for a full days coverage. For most weddings I'm happy to charge $500 (this one was 400 as it was interstate), because I know that many students can't pay more and I like taking photographs of weddings. Which is why I try damn hard to make them good. ($2000+ is more like the average. I also offer albums, on the price that I pay for them + a small editing fee, and have signed up with leather craftsman). Most of my clients are students who have just graduated. </p>

<p>Right, I'm quick at editing but not that quick. I don't really log my hours, and I don't really like thinking about how much I spent on those photos. Thinking about it now, I spent about 1-2 days straight in finals week (which I'm not happy about) finishing off the photos + the time I spent before. I spend up to half an hour on some of the getting ready photos because I *HATE* clutter, it's the one thing I can't stand, which is why the photos look so 'plain'. I've got about 14 years experience at using photoshop, and I can also script. So for example the reception photos, which are just of different people doing different things, I can script out a sequence for them, or make my very own action, as well as presets for raw (which is why 650 seems high, but a lot of it is reception). So it probably took me closer to 40-50h, but I don't like admitting that. </p>

<p>Honestly I'm proud of these photos because I *like* my style. That's why I chose it, and that's why I thought they chose me. I do a lot of other work besides weddings. </p>

<p>@Katrin: For my first few weddings I spent hours and hours learning as much as I could; and I already explained why I charged for this wedding. I don't want to charge any more or any less, as I know that it's hard for students to pay the prices for the average photographer here ($1500+), but I'm also not going to give up 50-60 hours of my time freely, anymore. (If you want to know my reasons, watch randy pausch's time management lecture). I think it comes down to style then lack of competence. Most of my photos are whiter because I LIKE them like that, I love pastel colours, and most of my other work (Which is not weddings and on my website which is under construction) represents this. The majority of my photos are pastel for the 85mm, and the majority of my TSE are over saturated. This is why I'm scratching my head about why they didn't like the photos!</p>

<p>http://imgur.com/a/GadCK here are some unedited ones...straight out of camera /embarrased. (I'd include more but I can't be bothered digging through my raw photos), blergh!<br>

Thank you @Green for the yellow white balance, I didn't notice that at all!</p>

<p>I've also been looking at investing in an off camera flash or lighting gear. Unfortunately it's really hard to get that stuff in Australia, and expensive too. For example, a remote in some of the shops would cost me about $450 - and would take weeks to order in, whereas amazon (which doesn't ship a lot here) is charging about $50 for various things. I'd love to invest in one, but $400 for me is *a lot* of money. I've also looked into building one myself... which looks hard -_-'</p>

<p>Moderators: I don't want to double post - but the edit button is gone! So please excuse me or combine it:<br /> I heard a few more comments from the groom. Apparently the photos look artificial, like they were copied and pasted into photoshop? And the bride thinks she looks old in a lot of the photos... :/ and that I should have had more angles at the reception. (The reception was 1 small room, and I couldn't really move). "I guess we were a bit disappointed with them as I guess we were expecting them to be a bit better but i guess we never really discussed how we wanted the final batch to be done". I still don't really know how they are disappointed since it's *exactly* like all my previous work, and I don't know how I disappointed them, nor do I think the bride looks old... <br /> <br /> As much as it pains me to say - and this is a question to everyone -<em><strong> I'm happy to go back and reedit some photos</strong>,</em> but<em> I think they seem like a couple that won't be pleased with whatever I do?</em></p>

<p>I totally miss the question about the exposure: Yup, 100% manual, manual everything down to user modes and white balance and tints. In terms of exposure, for weddings I just shoot in RAW so I just aim to get everything 'right' rather then artistic, though, I think I over exposed it because I had another beach wedding and I underexposed the photos leaving horrible washed out tones on the face. http://imgur.com/a/WpWeQ#7 I looked at a lot of jonas petersons work before shooting this wedding. (See the previous post where I included some unedited jpgs). I <strong>do</strong> know that I went overkill on the 1.2-2.8, I need to shoot more stuff at 5.6+ . Flash is 430 Ex II, and I generally don't go above 1/8, I change the angle more then the exposure. <br /> <br /> Thank you for everyone's comments. I'm wondering,<em> I still love taking wedding photographs</em> - but obviously not as a full time job (However if you think wedding photography is hard - try getting into the games industry lol!). I really want to continue, however I <strong>don't</strong> want to be the $2000 guy, I'm happy to be the $500-700 lady who takes photographs of poor students with lower expectations, and competes with other 500-700 people ( as I can't offer what $2000+ people offer, like marketing, blogs, equipment (unless hired) apart from photo quality and albums). Any advice on what I should do better next time apart from more variety and higher apature? </p>

<p>(Before anyone comments that I shouldn't be doing this: There's a gap in the market for people who have just graduated uni, who's wedding isn't being paid by their parents, and want a full day coverage. They need someone; and I'm willing to do it)</p>

<p>3100 pics, an unhappy B&G. You need to deliver, what, 45 good pics?<br>

What can we learn from this? <br>

Possibly the B&G believed you would, in fact, deliver the pics in a style THEY liked. Who knows what that is! Maybe, they looked at your previous work and never even dreamed that your previous work would have any influence on the results generated from THEIR wedding.<br>

What I have learned from reading this thread is to vary my style of picture taking so that I have something to satisfy more than one person.<br>

I would always take some non-manual pics in case the B&G are looking for snapshot type pics. <br>

You can not satisfy everybody, but, with variety, you got a better shot at it.<br>

The customer is always right, figure out what the customer wants, deliver that.<br>

IMHO<br>

P.S. I envy your willingness to do wedding photography. </p>

<p>Business wise, you're in Australia and seem to have some unique problems. I "think" William W. who posts on here, and is very knowledgeable, is over there. Maybe he will see this and add a few thoughts. Anyway, you can always work with a reflector or two to bump up the shadows and even out the facial lighting. I prefer white on one side and silver on the other, and white and gold for outdoors in the shade. But, I almost always just use flash. Keep in mind you were on a beach too, and that can be very tough. You might need to use a skrim for some shots. You can always have some people around you hold it while you take some portraits of the B and G etc. I always made a little fun thing out of it when I brought one on the beach here in NJ and I would take a few shots of whoever was holding it and it lightened the moment. Another thing to read, whatever you can find, is anything by Leon Kennemer about 'subtractive lighting".It's great insight on how to get some control over the light especially when it's too harsh.</p>

<p>So you likely put in 50-60 hours total into this wedding?</p>

<p>You are wearing out your equipment, cheapening your product, taking on huge liability issues that I don't think you grasp... to run what is basically a charity.</p>

<p>Why not invest 50 hours marketing yourself and shooting portraits? Make $100 a sitting fee, give ithe images away if you wish, and probably make 10X what you made on this wedding.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p><em><strong>I'm happy to go back and reedit some photos</strong>,</em>but<em> I think they seem like a couple that won't be pleased with whatever I do?</em></p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I think this is the case and a quick way to end this transaction is probably beneficial to you and the couple. You stuff is worth more than $500 for 19 hours and you are not even making that much on this deal, you don't owe this couple anything more.</p>

<p>Considering the price the couple paid and the long time involved , I don't think you owe them anything. Not too many photogs can survive the couple psychoanalyzing each and every one photo of the set.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Any advice on what I should do better next time apart from more variety and higher apature?</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>What I would like to suggest is that you should determine if you want to run this as a business or as a charity. As can be seen with this groom, just because you see yourself doing him a partially free service, your generosity might not be appreciated. So to me, if you want to do it for the long run, this has to be run as a business. </p>

<p>Taping into the young graduate low budget market is one thing provided you have the right cost structure and marketing plan. As can be seen with this groom, just because you see yourself doing him a partially free service, your generosity might not be appreciated.</p>

<p>When I first started out, I had similar thoughts as yours. The first paid couple I booked, their venue was an hour away. I charged them only $200 which basically just covered gas. They didn't even wanted to buy me dinner and I only got a dinner after putting in 12+ hours because some guests didn't show up. I gave them the set and had never heard from them ever again. </p>

<p>After that gig, I realize this has to be run as a business and not out of the kindness of my heart. As to the first couple, the set was good that I booked many more weddings from showing people that set and it pretty much started my career. </p>

<p>So the first couple got pretty much free wedding photos and I got a start in the wedding photography. It's every man for himself but we all benefit from it. So both you and the couple and not just the couple alone must benefit from this dealing or you won't enjoy doing this very long.</p>

<p> </p>

I agree with the couple. My first major hangup here is your comment about this not being a $2000 wedding. I don't know about you or the others on this forum. THIS IS WRONG... You were hired to do your best. $10,000 or a free wedding. Money doesn't matter. Give them there money back and take a hit.

 

I think you got off lucky here, based on what you showed us. If I were the couple I'd be pretty upset. Email me at savagesax@aol.com. I don't want to get into this where the world can see your work, such as future brides.

 

Ask to post a different name next time, or hide your name.