Police interpretations of the law (UK, England)

<p>This afternoon I was taking photos on the street in Peckham mainly of things found but also some of people. All the photos were taken in a public place. One person got very agitated when I took a photo which included her, her teenage son and her three year old daughter. She was concerned about me taking her daughter being in the picture and asked me to delete it telling me that I was 'breaking the law' (which I knew that I wasn't). To prevent argument I did delete the picture. However, the woman (and to a lesser extent her son) were not satisfied with this and insisted that I went with them to her hairdresser's shop from where she would call the police. Since a slightly ugly crowd had developed by then I agreed to do this - I was given the impression, though not by the woman or her son, that if I didn't go things would go ill for me.</p>

<p>When we got to her shop she repeated her story to everyone there and they were all very angry with me, in particular one man who physically prevented me from leaving the shop. At this point I called the police and asked them to come to the shop. This they agreed to do. One of the customers in the shop also called the police which resulted in two police cars and five or six officers turning up.</p>

<p>I have no idea what the police told the woman and her son but my concern is what they told me. They did agree with me that I had not broken any law in actually taking the photographs as I was in a public place and, to the best of their knowledge, no order had been issued stopping the photography of children in that area. I quite agreed with one of the officers who told me that while I had not broken the law I had been most unwise in taking that particular photo. The other two officers however were quite aggressive (one of them told me that if I'd taken a photo of his kid 'I'd regret it') and insisted that I'd been out taking photographs of children for some unknown purpose despite me showing them that the great majority of my photos contained no people at all and none of them contained children. One officer's response to this was that 'I must have deleted them'.</p>

<p>The other aggressive officer then told me that if I continued arguing he would consider arresting me for Breach of the Peace. When I asked him what he meant by this he said that my making the woman upset by taking my photograph could well amount to a Breach of the Peace in itself. They then asked me for my name and address which I gave them despite my probably not being obliged to so far as I'm aware.</p>

<p>Does anyone here with legal knowledge know whether the officers threat to arrest me for Breach of the Peace might have had any substance? I am also concerned that there is now a record somewhere of me having been spoken to for 'taking photographs of children'. I did ask the more reasonable officer to ensure that any notes made recorded that I was in fact taking photos of the street in general</p>

<p>I intend making a complaint to the Metropolitan Police about the way I was treated once I can find out to who to send it.</p>

<p>Someone with real knowledge of the laws of Great Britain needs to answer some of your questions. That would not be me. All I can say is that even if the law is similar to the US, and allows for the taking of photographs in a public area for documentary and artistic purposes, it is best in this day and age to think long and carefully before taking a photograph which includes a stranger's child. The last thing you want is to be suspected of unsavory motives...which, based on your story, sounds like the initial impression held by at least some of the people you encountered.</p>

<p>You did the civil thing by deleting the photo and accompanying the woman. In a situation like that I think the best approach is to allay all possible fears and suspicions. I probably would have done the same thing in your situation. On the other hand, one could take a militant "it's my right as a photographer!" stance (provided that, <em>legally,</em> it is your right), and walk away. Because a child, and not just an adult, is involved, that probably would not be the wisest way to deal with such a situation.</p>

<p>Okay. Someone cue the "It's all your fault!" crowd and let the serious upbraiding begin.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>What a nightmare! A friend of mine had a very similar experience, except it went much further and he was arrested, had his flat searched and equipment confiscated. Its sadly not surprising to find moronic attitudes amongst the great British public, even amongst the police. I suggest that if you want to take it further, be strong and persistent, get legal advice, or perhaps contact something like Amateur Photographer magazine or similar. They seem keen to take up this type of situation.</p>

<p>Ask for copies of the surveillance photos and videos from the immediate area where the incidents occurred, including the hairdresser's shop.</p>

<p>Besides supporting your side of the story, it'll also be an ironic form of performance art.</p>

<p>Sorry to read of your misfortune. I'm no legal expert, far from it. But if you were here in America, the first thing you'd be doing is hiring a lawyer. Then he'd want every person in this situation identified- the accusers on the street, in the hair shop, and the officers, and then the lawyer would be threatening to sue each of them for their various infractions against you, the innocent street photographer who did nothing wrong.</p>

<p>But that's the way things are here. Everyone is a perceived victim (i.e. the people in your photo) or a real victim (in this case, you), and in America everyone jumps to a lawyer for help. We are a country of very thin-skinned, paranoid citizens.</p>

<p>In the USA (for USA readers), your rights to photograph- http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/know-your-rights-photographers</p>

<p>Great link, Steve T. I wonder if there is a UK equivalent? John mentioned Amateur Photographer which offers this:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/photo-news/535586/uk-photographers-rights-print-them-out-and-keep-them-handy">http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/photo-news/535586/uk-photographers-rights-print-them-out-and-keep-them-handy</a></p>

<blockquote>

<p>I was given the impression, though not by the woman or her son, that if I didn't go things would go ill for me.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>It was all in your head and you let some over emotional woman and then a crowd take control over you creating a needless fiasco and spectacle. It should have been over upon deleting the image and you leaving the scene. You chose a course where they MIGHT have called the police to one where it was announced that they would and that all these people would be there at some hairdresser. Don't engage with people going crazy over small issues.</p>

<p>I'm more concerned about the police threatening to do me for Breach of the Peace since it seems to me that that was a somewhat bizarre idea of theirs. The suggestion of the officer who came up with this was that I might have been causing a Breach of the Peace by alarming the woman. I suppose he may have meant that by alarming the woman I myself might have become a victim of violence. I've since been reading up on Breach of the Peace and it is indeed sometimes used in very strange ways.</p>

<p>Note that it was ME who called the cops initially since, so far as I was concerned, I was being held against my wishes and that's what I told the person who took my call. The cops were probably simply trying to diffuse a potentially bad situation but going about it in entirely the wrong way.</p>

<p>I'm quite aware that, unfortunately, some people are very wary of any form of street photography these days and perhaps it was unwise (although not illegal) to include the child in the photo. That's not my issue: I've learned a lesson in that respect despite having been doing occasional street photography for over 40 years.</p>

<p>John H: it really was very threatening. It really wasn't all in my head but, as I've just said, I'm more concerned about the response of the police being rather bizarre.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>John H: it really was very threatening.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's why I wrote what I wrote.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>It really wasn't all in my head</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Thinking that entering the hornet's nest is better than avoiding it? A guaranteed bad outcome better than a probable better outcome? Where else would that have come from?</p>

<p>I can't help you with UK statutory law but I can tell you that surrendering your custody to these kind of crazed clueless people hyping up other people with wild stories of wrongdoing isn't a good idea.</p>

<p>There was one of me and quite a number of them some of whom were, erm, not exactly going to let me just walk away.</p>

Agree with John H...

<p>Obviously you had to make your decision on the spur of the moment, but I don't think I would walk one step with anyone in that situation, whether there was a crowd or not. And certainly not to a location where they were in control (maybe I'd walk with them to the police station of there was one nearby). If anything, I would have pointed out to them, very loudly so everyone could hear, that they were harassing you and committing coercion (if that's the correct legal term in the UK?). And then immediately called the police. Deleting the picture probably didn't help, since it looked like an admission of guilt, and gave them the feeling of being on the moral high ground.</p>

<p>If you felt coerced or compelled by the accuser or bystanders to accompany her to the hairdresser's shop, that's another valid reason to request copies of any surveillance photos or videos. </p>

<p>Don't assume this is over. Hysteria tends to take control over people and their recollections of events. Take control of this situation now.</p>

<p>Request copies of the police report, photos and videos now, before they become buried or inaccessible. Especially surveillance videos, which may not be kept indefinitely.</p>

Do you remember the film 'About a boy' where Hugh Grant is having a meal in a restaurant with a girlfriend and a lady

comes in, walks up to his table and starts asking him why he has been inviting her teenage son back to his flat and what

has he been doing with him? You think 'Okay, get out of that one.' with some deft wording about how she is failing as a

parent and her hare brained hippy ideals are not helping her to be a good parent, he turns the tables.

Several times I have been in the situation where precious members of the public who have picked up on the notion that

photographing them is an invasion of privacy, try to bring some interest back into their lives by making a fuss. I behave in

a friendly manner and do as they wish. Perhaps a Hugh Grant dialogue (I spell this way because I'm a Brit) might help.

I can only think of put downs right now and while providing satisfaction to oneself they are only likely to inflame a

situation. And yes I think UK law on the subject is similar to US law whereas in parts of Europe there are some more

complex privacy laws; if anybody knows what these are it would be appreciated.

<p>I've done some digging around about Breach of the Peace. In English and Welsh law it is not either a civil or criminal offence (althought it is in Scotland). The most which can be done is that you get 'bound over' to keep the peace which does not count as a criminal record. The police can in fact arrest you, in certain circumstances, if they think that your continued presence is likely to cause a breach of the peace even if you are the one who is being threatened. I have also ascertained that they had no right to demand my name and address (which I was pretty certain of at the time) and neither would my refusal to give it have constituted a reason for arrest.<br /><br /><br>

I shall be contacting the police with regard to what is on their records etc. and also to complain about the heavy handed way in which this was dealt with and their refusal to listen to my complaint against my accuser.<br /><br /><br>

I have since used a file recovery program to recover the picture just in case it is ever needed.</p>

<p>Thanks for all your comments. Much appreciated.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>She was concerned about me taking her daughter being in the picture and asked me to delete it telling me that I was 'breaking the law' (which I knew that I wasn't). To prevent argument I did delete the picture. However, the woman (and to a lesser extent her son) were not satisfied with this and insisted that I went with them to her hairdresser's shop from where she would call the police.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br /> By getting you to delete the picture she has destroyed the evidence and therefore has no case (didn't have one anyway). If you were forced to delete the picture, that would be illegal in itself.<br /> <br /> The police use breach of the peace to diffuse many situations in a public place. You cannot be arrested for photography in a public place because it is not illegal. If you argued with the police and didn't calm down when asked, they would most certainly use a charge of breach of the peace as a way of calming you down.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The other aggressive officer then told me that if I continued arguing he would consider arresting me for Breach of the Peace.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br /> However, If I remember correctly, you cannot be arrested for breach of the peace, just cautioned.<br /> From Wikkipedia:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"In England and Wales, breach of the peace is not an offence, in the sense that it is not punishable either by a fine or imprisonment either at statute or common law and nor do proceedings for breach of the peace give rise to any conviction"</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br /> <br /> I think your mistake was in accompanying her to the shop. You should have just said <em>"I'm leaving now, If you continue to harass me, I will call the police"</em> and continued on your way.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Perhaps a Hugh Grant dialogue (I spell this way because I'm a Brit) </p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

And because it is correct!</p>

<p>The woman herself was quite reasonable other than being agitated and difficult to calm down. It was the hangers on who all thought they knew exactly what had been going on (though, of course they didn't) who were the problem. Several of them were very intimidating which rather scared the willies out of me :-)</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Several of them were very intimidating which rather scared the willies out of me</p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

Obviously, self preservation blocks thoughts about right and wrong as in a situation, you are only thinking about how to get out of it.</p>

<p>Despite advice about saying you are going and walking away, I don't know what I would actually do because I have never been in that situation.</p>

<p>Just remember. You did nothing legally or morally wrong. You did exactly the same thing as countless street photographers have always done - imagine if all the great pictures of street scenes never had any children in them! I bet the people who complained cheerfully photograph whatever they like when on holiday abroad.<br>

You were put under unfair pressure by the people who tried to intimidate you. You may have made the wrong decision in going with them, who knows? How many times do we look back at a difficult situation and think of better ways to handle it?</p>

<p><em>I intend making a complaint to the Metropolitan Police about the way I was treated once I can find out to who to send it.</em><br>

Police Complaints Commission.<br>

I presume you will reflect on this incident, in which you have not infringed any law but have experienced the degree of paranoia which is out there on the streets these days and (at least as far as I am concerned) makes traditional street photography simply impossible.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>When I asked him what he meant by this he said that my making the woman upset by taking my photograph could well amount to a Breach of the Peace in itself.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>There's nothing like a good round of hysteria to make one's day.</p>

<p>This has less to do with the law than with the capacity of even the most innocent and wholesome things in the world to go frightfully wrong if just the "right" people come along. I'm glad you survived this madness intact, Pete.</p>

<p>--Lannie</p>

In the US, what your actual rights are doesn't always mean much. I hope it's better in Britain. Unless you're extremely well

funded and can afford to push your rights in court, the police will pretty much do what they want and they usually get

away with it, sometimes even when someone gets hurt or killed. It's not quite as bad usually in the US as it might be in

some places, but standing on your fights is dangerous unless you have money and a good lawyer. Remember the police

are in general a paramilitary force backed by the government charged with protecting THEIR interests, not yours.

Embarrassment through the press might force a better resolution but only if you're lucky. And ultimate vindication is of no

value to you if you're dead.

 

 

It's easy for me to say because I shoot landscapes, but I don't intentionally take any pictures with people in them unless

I'm asked to (like at an office party or something). And I don't even point the camera at anyone. People are dangerous,

violent, and paranoid and the police are people too.

<blockquote>

<p>I hope it's better in Britain. Unless you're extremely well funded and can afford to push your rights in court, the police will pretty much do what they want and they usually get away</p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

Very different here. In all of the cases of photographer harassment I have heard of in the UK, they end up with the police issuing an apology (where it was the police doing the harassing).<br>

<br>

This doesn't really make up for the harassment, especially in the rare cases where some time has been spent in a cell.<br>

<br>

Unlike the US, in the UK it's not a case of who has the best lawyer. Our judges are more interested in justice.</p>

<p>In the U.S., at least, police basically have carte blanch to arrest whoever they want at a scene. If they arrest someone on bogus charges, the person arrested won't get charged and will be released relatively quickly but will have no real recourse against the police.</p>