Scratched Film with M6 Classic

<p>I am getting scratched negs with my M6 ‘Classic’. It’s an early Wetzlar version that I received… to my surprise… in mint condition. It had been a shelf bunny for the past 27 years and came to me with its boxes, promo stickers, manual, etc. The times work on it very well so I cannot say that this is a damaged camera. It is as pristine as when it left Wetzlar 27 years ago. <br>

Some important details:</p>

 

<ul>

<li>I get scratches in the emulsion side of the film whether I am shooting TMax 100, BW400CN, Delta, Portra, HP5+, or TMax P3200.</li>

<li>I develop my own BW and have seen these scratches on the film right out of the camera—this is not happening in processing.</li>

<li>The scratches are horizontal</li>

<li>The deepest scratch is horizontal and subtly wavy, with vertical movement of a couple of millimeters. I could not duplicate this with my fingernail, exerting a lot of force. I had to use the tip of a scissor to duplicate this kind of deep scratch, leading me to believe it is a bur</li>

<li>I load per the instructions on the camera bottom and the manual, always rewinding the spool a bit before the first quick advance of the film</li>

<li>I do not force the last frame. When I feel resistance I flip the rewind lever and spool it back into the cassette, leaving the leader out to assist in developing</li>

<li>I have been over the inside of the camera and do not see a bur on any of the surfaces. There could possibly be one that is hidden but it would be in a place that I cannot see</li>

</ul>

<p>What do you think could be causing these scratches?</p>

<p>Thanks,<br>

Jim</p>

<p>Most important first question. Do you develop your own film or do you send it out?</p>

<p>Hmmm, there has to be something on the camera or film canister that is scratching it. Scratches always in about the same place? Are the vertical ticks in a regular pattern? Also have you dry fired the camera with the back plate up and and looked how the shutter is working? You may have to send a roll of film in and the camera to get it sorted out. Scratches suck. sorry no answer but just questions. Have you felt along the edges of the frames with your finger to see if you can feel any burrs? etc etc. Gus?</p>

<p>Emulsion side, so not the pressure plate. How far from the sprocket holes? Has this happened from the start of your time with it? As Barry says, a burr on the edge of the film gate, or at the edge between the rails nearest the cannister, or the edge nearest the advance mechanism might be the culprit. You can feel easily with the tip of your little finger the smooth edge that the film crosses from the film cannister chamber, and at the other end your little finger might be small enough to feel past the advance gear spindle to check that. If you have a dud roll unused, try advancing and then rewind just enough to get the film off the tulip. You may be able to determine whether it is being scratched at the right end or the left end of the film gate as you look in the back.</p>

<p>This is surprising, I can't think of any camera that touches the emulsion side of the film except at the guide rails and sprocket wheel, which only touch it in the sprocket area. Makes me think it could be a foreign object in the camera.<br>

You are turning the rewind crank in the right direction when rewinding, right? The film is emulsion-in when you open the magazine?<br>

I presume you have tried developing an unexposed roll of film to rule out any issues in processing.</p>

<p>OOps! Just reread. You develop the film. Might be a problem in that area. Otherwise have the camera checked out. Being on the shelf for 27 years does not mean the camera is pristine internally. It needs a CLA. In the process you might find what is causing the scratches. My uneducated guess is the old oil is creating strained tensions that are somehow affecting the film. Send it to Sherry at Golden Touch or someone else you trust.</p>

<p>All, lots of great suggestions. To answer some of the questions presented:</p>

<ul>

<li>I've felt around with my little finger and have not felt anything. </li>

<li>I am rewinding in the direction of the arrow and I do not force the last frame. </li>

<li>The deepest scratch is in the same place every roll.</li>

<li>When I dry fire the shutter with the back open everything looks fine. The inside of the camera appears spotless. The only time this has happened to me in the past was with debris in my IIIc. If there's debris in this camera it is lodged as I have blasted the inside with air around the places where the emulsion touches the camera.</li>

</ul>

<p>I think my best bet at this point is to try Richard G's idea of partially running a roll through. </p>

<p>If Gus would like to chime in I'd be very grateful.</p>

<p>Thanks,<br>

Jim</p>

 

<p>Are you sure you're loading the film correctly? </p>

<p>When I first got my M6, I almost loaded the film incorrectly by pulling the leader over the little "bar" with the contacts on it (on the right side, if you open the back plate). Maybe the little screw is causing the scratches? It's not overly sharp, but considering the pressure placed on the film by the back plate, it wouldn't be surprising. In that case, the scratches would be along the top 1/3of the frame on the emulsion side. </p>

<p>Just a random guess, but still a possibility. Some pictures of the scratched film would be helpful.</p>

<p>Good luck,<br>

Dave.</p>

<p>Hi Dave-- Yeah, I am most definitely not loading that way. ;-)</p>

<p>Have the camera cleaned. There is 27 years of old oil and grease in there. I am still wonder if over-tension somewhere is causing the problem. Also, something might be loose. Have to camera cleaned already.</p>

<p>I'm not sure whether you've seen the scratches on completely unprocessed film (ie you've opened a can of film which has been through the camera but is otherwise untouched, and in particular which hasn't been developed &c). If you have not done that, I would be tempted either to do it, or to process a roll from another camera to confirm you don't get scratches then. (This isn't meant to imply I think it's a processing problem, just that ruling one out is easy and would be a good thing to do, as then you absolutely know for sure it is the camera.)</p>

<p>Tim, that is precisely what I plan to do. I figure I'll pick up a thick emulsion film like Tri-X and run that through to check it. Of course I'll step through the process. I am curious to see of this is happening as the film is advanced or rewound.<br>

<br>

Fortunately the scratches after being processed are not significant and can be fixed with PS. Nevertheless, I'd like to eliminate that step.</p>

<p>I commented on this similar issue, but even though it concerned an SLR, it still applies...<br>

<a href="00aIPM">http://www.photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00aIPM</a> <<< Click</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"It had been a shelf bunny for the past 27 years" <em><strong>Jim T.</strong></em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>With that, confidence is high that as previously mentioned, it's "<strong>back pressure</strong>" that's exacerbating the situation.<br>

(Either or both, rewind mechanism and take-up clutch)</p>

<p>Jim,</p>

<p>I read your post. I had a similar issue with my MP AND M6 --<br>

Question: do you use a Nikon scanner? The reason I ask is because the film holder thingy on my Nikon 5000 was scratching the film - pretty much the same place - horizontal - slightly wavy. I had the holder repaired by Nikon and the issue went away.<br>

I will still get what I call transom lines on my film from time to time - it's usually due to dirt / grime in the light trap on the film canister. I'll get the scratch across maybe 1 to 3 frames - then it's gone.<br>

I hope you find your problem -- it's a tough one to track down.</p>

<p>Gus, thank you for replying. I will run some film through it today and examine the emulsion side through-out its length. I hate the idea of parting from my camera for any amount of time. I'm really hoping it doesn't need a CLA. On a related note, do you still work on Leicas?<br>

<br>

Bob, I do use a Nikon CoolScan IV and suspected it was the culprit until I saw a deep scratch on the leader as I was about to roll it onto the spiral. The above test will probably tell me what I need to know.</p>

<p>Not a problem Jim.<br /> But rather than waste more film:</p>

<ol>

<li>Put your finger in contact with the rewind fork and see how it reacts. If it provides anything other than a "<strong>fluid and easy action" </strong>I spoke about, then the issue likely originates here.</li>

<li>If the take-up spool when arrested by you, doesn't bleed off the pressure in a smooth manner, then you've found another possible contributor.</li>

<li>Unlike the Leicaflex units, the M6 rewind mechanism lubrication is accessed best internally.</li>

</ol>

<p>As for the Leica repairs, yes thanks. Along with the other two commonly mentioned techs (Don & Sherry), I'm backlogged badly on my ETA repair times. In fact Pnet regularly gives me a very welcome daily break from the bench...</p>

<p>Thanks again, Gus. I'll give that a try (and save some HP5+). </p>

<p>I sure am glad you are here! I've read many of your posts and you are a true asset to the community.</p>

<p>Gus, I checked the tulip and noticed that each time I stopped advancing, the tulip would move back smoothly about 3mm. This sounds like what you are talking about regarding it taking the pressure off. </p>

<p>I then tested the rewind fork. The rewind fork turned smoothly but did have a little VERY little resistance. It would not keep spinning because it doesn’t have enough mass. It’s hard to describe. It has a slight paper-like feeling more than an lubed-up feeling.</p>

<p>I also ran a roll of some cheap film (‘Kodak 400’) through. I left the bottom off initially to see how it spooled on (had never done that before). After a few advances I rewound it and noticed that the tulip has the ability to scratch the leader. This is probably the very deep scratch that I saw on the leader three rolls ago.</p>

<p>Could I be tightening the roll too much when loading, causing the scratches as the film advances? I’ve only tightened it until I felt a bit of resistance, never more.</p>

<p>Thoughts?</p>

<p>Thanks in advance,<br>

Jim </p>

<blockquote>

<p>"take-up spool when arrested" </p>

</blockquote>

<p>Hold the tulip <strong>as you're advancing</strong>. <br>

Is it slipping with a smooth action or is the clutch stuck to the tulip?<br>

</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"your finger in contact with the rewind fork" </p>

</blockquote>

<p>Move the rewind fork <strong>from the inside</strong> with your finger tip. (Where the film cassette makes contact) <br>

Is it fairly easy to move?</p>

<p>Hi Gus,</p>

<p>As I am advancing, I can arrest the tulip and the advance lever continues with a smooth action. Presumably this is good?</p>

<p>Also, I placed my finder in the rewind fork and it was easy to move. Provided that these are favorable indications I am leaning toward thinking that I am over tightening the spool when I load on.</p>

<p>The last roll I put through the camera, the ‘Kodak 400’, only had scratches at the leader and on (about) the second to the last frame. I’ll take a close look at some Velvia that I’ll get back from the lab today and see if that roll is scratched.</p>

<p>Thanks,<br>

Jim</p>

<p>After loading more rolls and examining my negs, including loading a roll and examining the unexposed film, I think there were a couple of things going on:</p>

<ul>

<li>I saw one roll where the back of the film was significantly scratched and overreacted, HOWEVER I did not examine more than two inches of the film (not wanting to expose the film). I think this scratch, and others later, occurs when the film unspools off the tulip. Since it is never reaches into the exposed frames there is little to worry about.</li>

</ul>

 

<ul>

<li>Scratches that I saw on my scans of negatives: I am using a Nikon CoolScan IV and I have the sense that this desktop scanner (and probably others) render scratches visible that may not appear on a pro scanner or even on a wet print. The scratches are significant on a TIF, requiring that I heal them in Photoshop, but I suspect that they would never be an issue using a traditional printing process.</li>

</ul>

 

<ul>

<li>I think it is possible that I was tightening the film too much during the load procedure. I was tightening the film until I felt resistance. I have stopped doing that. Whether it is in my head or not, it seems to have decreased the scartches I see on the scans.</li>

</ul>

<p>Thank you, everyone, for your help. Because of you I have a better understanding of how my camera works. This also lead me to investigate how scanners differ by more than just DPI and speed.</p>

<p>Thanks again,<br>

Jim</p>