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<p>There are certainly different ways of looking at these things, but most who make their living at photography, at least commercial photography, don't look at the "marginal revenue" model. That is the quickest way to run your business into the toilet as their is no bottom to it.</p>
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<p>go into his restaurant as a well-dressed stranger off the street, and ask what the price is for a meal. When he says $40, tell him that you had really expected to pay only $1 for it. Tell him that that is your final offer, and that you will be really grateful to him for helping you out, and that you will tell all your friends to come along to his restaurant too.</p>

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<p>A more logical analogy is a customer declining to order something based on the price the dish or meal turns out to cost which happens constantly. Just as potential purchasers of imagery decide whether or not to do so based on price. That's all that happened here. Someone decided not to buy something they were interested in when they learned the price. Normal behavior occurring billions of times a day. No one was out to snooker anybody or approach anyone wielding assurances, rationalizations or marketing tricks. The situation above doesn't fit what happened.</p>

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<p>I agree that the meal analogy doesn't work. There is a price list (menu) for the restaurant. The patron knows the pricing, well-dressed or not, by looking at the menu. That's completely different from the case here. The analogy with photography for the restaurant would be that Reuters is offering the photo as stock for $175. Nobody is going to try to pay $35 because there is a price list, just like there is a menu at the restaurant.</p>

<p>In the end, it's up to you to decide if you are going to take the deal. I was trying to sell an antique I owned years ago, and a family friend was an expert in the area. I asked him what its value was because I was getting offers somewhat below what I paid for it. He told me "The value is exactly what someone will pay for it." That was an interesting lesson and one that has stuck with me. The point for you is that the value to that restaurant is $35. If there is nobody willing to pay more, then the value is $35. You have to decide if it's worth it or not.</p>

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<p>A suggestion: take the $35.00 per print payment, but make the "good to use" time 30 days or 60 days, <strong>but not for one year</strong>. If the images increase his restaurant business, he may be good with renewing the use time for your images....</p>

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<p>It will just stick in his head that photography is something that people give away for free. He willl tell all his friends about it, and they will expect photography for free too. And even if he does feel gratitude, the chance of him referring a 'proper' client to you is remote. He IS the proper paying client. If you let every paying client have things for free in the hope that he will send you another proper paying client,</p>

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<p> Even assuming, for discussion, all of these things are true or even applicable to this situation it is inconsequential The images are likely only of interest to the owner(s). Unless the costs approach what the payment would be it is still profit Tiffany would otherwise likely never see. These factors wouldn't alter that nor are they likely to affect her later even if these things did happen. This was a chance situation, unlikely to affect the marketing of weddings or other probable client bases. Plus there was no issue of anything being free here. A price wasn't agreed on. That's all.</p>

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<p>Stick to your guns. There will always be people who want to slash their wrists, but they will either need to raise their prices or won't be around for long. The way I have always looked at it is that if I am going to break even or lose money</p>

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<p>There are generally non-issues here. No one is giving anything away for free. No one would have suffered losses unless the cost started to exceed the price or other actual value arising in return. It was a one off surprise opportunity. It didn't go forward.</p>

<p>Tiffany can choose to do anything she wants. It will be based on reality or perception. These reasons fall in to the latter.</p>

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<p>There's a problem with your topic heading... this guy isn't a "client", he's just a small business owner who wanted to buy rights to some images you took at an event at his restaurant. He valued them at $35 each (what they were worth to him), you valued them higher and decided not to drop your price. </p>

<p>I'm not sure why this is even worthy of much discussion - there's no reason he should be convinced to pay more if that's all he's willing to pay, and if you don't want to get involved for $35 an image then walk away - no harm, no foul.</p>

<p>In my opinion, it's a mistake to get outraged and expect a restaurant owner to have the knowledge of an agency art buyer when it comes to purchasing images. I also think it's a mistake to try selling restricted time limits to that kind of "client" - types of use, sure. Life is way too short to stress at this level - either pocket a few $35 use fees, or forget about it, he's not exactly going to be a big future source of income either way. </p>

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<p>In my opinion, it's a mistake to get outraged and expect a restaurant owner to have the knowledge of an agency art buyer when it comes to purchasing images.</p>

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<p>Great point. And it complements the point that John H makes:</p>

<p>The images are likely only of interest to the owner(s). Unless the costs approach what the payment would be it is still profit Tiffany would otherwise likely never see. <br /></p>

 

 

 

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<p>Life is way too short to stress at this level - either pocket a few $35 use fees, or forget about it, he's not exactly going to be a big future source of income either way.</p>

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<p>And...</p>

 

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<p>Would you be willing to work for $140 in gift certificates from the restaurant? </p>

 

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<p>Great idea, but wouldn't it depend on the food?</p>

 

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<p>This was a chance situation, unlikely to affect the marketing of weddings or other probable client bases.</p>

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<p>Another good point from John H. </p>

<p> FWIW, one thing that can be done when pricing has to be lower than desirable is to price it at what you want and then offer a "goodwill" discount. Even big companies will do things this way when it's the only way to get a sale.</p>

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<p>The value is what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller. Having said that, pricing really works only one way. Once you establish a low price -- that becomes what everyone gets. I thought your price was very reasonable. But the buyer will only pay what it is worth to them.<br>

<br />i would not get into any discussion to justify the price. If the buyer pushes, you may be willing to "discount" the price, but just this once. You can justify the discount any way you want -- but unless you are clear that it is a one time event you can expect everyone to want the same discount.</p>

<p>This is one of the reasons that much commercial/advertising photography is done on day rates with the clint getting the rights to the entire shoot for the specified use bundle of rights. </p>

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<p>Bryan has a great point in doing a trade out. I did that frequently. I did a lot of work for resorts and national hotel chains. I would get great vacations and never have to pay a dime beyond the tips to the staff. You do have to report them on your income tax return, though -- and pay taxes on their value.</p>
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<p>Once you establish a low price -- that becomes what everyone gets.</p>

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<p>I have never found pricing to be like this. I have varied pricing and never found that anyone knew what anyone else was paying me. People ask for a price and I give it to them, and even though quite a bit of it is sold within a fairly small community, nobody says anything. This is even true with day rates, in my experience. As long as it's not published, nobody seems to care. What I do hear is that "so and so will do it cheaper," but that's because they are comparison shopping, not because they heard they could get a better price from me.</p>

<p>Here's a good example. I shoot fights and used to get paid by the trainer or the gym. (I now shoot for a magazine so it's different.) One fighter I always shot for free. This was because he had helped my son a lot and I have always felt that I can't come close to returning what he did for me no matter how much I shoot. Even though the fight community is fairly tight, and some people knew that I wasn't charging but not why, nobody else asked me to shoot for free. Nobody. And I've been shooting fights for quite a while.</p>

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<p>Jeff, I think it depends on the community you work for an what kind of work you do. I did about 60% of my work for national ad agencies. All of the art directors knew each other and we would all get together at least once a week. I had a half dozen large direct national accounts and even there most of the art directors knew each other. Photographers' rates were not secret. The one national catalog I did was on an annual contract, so that really didn't figure into the mix.</p>
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<p>I wasn't suggesting it didn't happen, but your statement was absolute, and I was pointing that out. It's unlikely that the owners of restaurants share pricing about photos, many surely don't buy any photographs. Even if they buy photographs, it seems many just go to the print shop and buy posters. It's really unlikely that if Tiffany charged $1 each for this job that anyone else would know.</p>
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<p>Restaurants have a very strong trade association, so I wouldn't discount some shared knowledge on the subject. Of course it depends how the photographer establishes themselves and what market they target. It is hard to make money with one time sales because your sales cost is so high. You spend 90% of your time selling your services and only providing them 10% -- but you only get paid for that 10%. One of the paths to success as a photographer is to take pictures not be a salesman. That is why some segments of the business are dominated by agents and rep services. If a photographer can get with a good rep, that is a real advantage.</p>

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<p>Won't get referrals or business? A restaurant owner sought out the photographer, or it seems that's the case. How did the owners see the images to begin with? From a happy customer? Do they do weddings often? Will they refer customers? Will they use them in advertising? This isn't slapping a generic art piece on the wall. On the wedding forum providing images to vendors is discussed all the time. Is this the kind of business that might have a preferred vendor list? Do they do lots of events rather than the odd wedding know and then?<br>

"Here are some shots from a reception we hosted. They had a great time." ("We really liked the results this photographer got." Even if they don't say so, they wouldn't use the images if they thought they were bad or didn't present the space well. They are presenting your work, right? Credits/logos? How about a "This photographer did a really good job. The couple brought these to us to show how well they turned out. He/She was really easy to work with.)</p>

<p>This is almost found money and compare this opportunity to advertising you actually pay for? What if there is limited return, what are you out? </p>

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<p>Tiffany... I am not a professional that sells my work and I'm not in retail sales or advertising, but having read both your request for opinion and the comments above, I can't help but think that I don't have enough information to make a decision. Now, don't get me wrong and I'm not being intentionally rude, but I haven't seen your work... is it worth the price you're asking? Post some of your work and it will be much easier to form an opinion.<br>

However, if you want to generate business, the $35 and a counter offer for a half dozen entree dinners might be a compromise that any restaurant owner may go for ;-). Next year you may get the full account... Mike </p>

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<p><a name="00ZcGc"></a><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=103794">Gary Crabbe</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub10plus.gif" alt="" /></a>, Nov 17, 2011; 02:09 a.m.</p>

<p>"Let me do this: I'll double my price, but only accept $75.00 per image in cash (no quantity discounts) for the one year use, and you give me the difference in credit towards a few meals here."</p>

<p>Gary may have a point.</p>

<p>There's some validity in this approach. You could offer a discounted cash price in addition to a trade arrangement on the balance, which could actually nurture your relationship with this business. Will your photo be displayed at the restaurant? If so, it would be a perfect setting to help you close a future client who may be debating whether or not to hire you. Also, you and the owner of the restaurant may be able to steer future wedding business in each other's direction through your independent networking.<br />Make it work. Don't burn bridges.<br>

I'd add that if he is willing to work out an arrangement similar to the one described, that you insist that arrangement not be made public. This will reinforce the value of your work to him.</p>

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<p>I don't have enough information to make a decision.... ...Post some of your work and it will be much easier to form an opinion.</p>

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<p>The question here concerned an individual potential buyer who already viewed the imagery, evaluated its utility for their particular use and what price they are willing to pay. Posting the work will provide no additional information for answering the question about this particular potential client. Masterful or lousy. It won't matter. The would be buyer already knows what it looks like and what it is worth to them. The portfolio will be useful as a rough guide for other potential transactions.</p>

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<p>John H... I respectfully disagree. The restaurant owner has indeed seen the images and "liked" them. The OP has stated that "I offer a quality product", but has also asked for our opinion "So, do I send a reply email back?". Before offering wholesale opinions I think it is imperative that Tiffany defines, both to us and to herself, the relative value of "quality". Obtaining an opinion of her work from this illustrious forum would go a long way toward establishing the value of her work and thus the strength of her marketing pursuit. If I were to see what I (or the consensus here) quantify as quality, then I'd recommend that she not accept a reduction in price and very pleasantly move on; however, if I find she offers good quality snapshots, then I'd recommend she not take the devalued offer and work on her skills so that the next customer finds more value in her work.<br>

<br /> So, to stick to the prima facie question without introducing any more of my confusion... I recommend, Tiffany, that you pursue the $35 and dinner compromise and insure that you have your images signed so that the public can identify you as the artist.</p>

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<p>I think it is imperative that Tiffany defines, both to us and to herself, the relative value of "quality". Obtaining an opinion of her work from this illustrious forum would go a long way toward establishing the value of her work</p>

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<p> Imperative? That's nonsense. Nothing we see or know about the images will make any difference to this restaurant owner. The one who decides whether to make a purchase. We seeing the images and offering opinions on them has no bearing on whether the owner, whose subjective views are the only that will count, will accept any new offer. Our opinion of there images will not magically alter the owner's perception of value. Discussing cost of equipment won't change the owners mind. Telling the owner that people on photo.net think its worth more will not change it. A new offer will either be accepted or it won't. Our opinion on the images will have no effect either way on what the owner will decide.</p>

 

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<p>John H... I offer only one more comment and I will conclude that this dead horse we're beating will not get up. Either I'm not speaking clearly or you're not listening. The reaction of the owner is a sliding scale that we have no control over but my opinion, that was requested, finds it important to know the quality of this work in order to give a logical response.</p>

<p>I've given Tiffany a straight answer in the conclusion of my previous post and I tire of semantics, so let me just wish you a very pleasant weekend and make this my last post on this subject. </p>

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<p>Running a restaurant involves a good shrewd manager to survive. They are wise to shop around and consider costs. They really search for low costs on every item they buy since the restaurant business is tough and many die off. There really is no way to say what is a proper price. Folks on this board seem to buy cameras on line to skirt local sales taxes but then whine when another business wants lower costs for your images.</p>

<p>If you already shot the images anyway would folks here:<br>

accept 50 bucks per image or say no and get nothing and feel proud they got nothing but upheld standards?</p>

<p>There are no rigid laws and rules with pricing, it is a life long adventure that requires mistakes.<br>

The rules about doing a new shoot and selling stuff that has already been shot can be different. One has settup and the other has little</p>

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