Simply looking for validation through commiseration

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<p>Our studio formals were taken with three frames of 4x5 film, that's it. You didn't want to waste one of them</p>

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<p>I have posted before that when my father was first allowed to go out to do a wedding on his own, he was given ten glass plates and told not to waste any of them.</p>

<p>Really, I don't think it's plausible to judge based on one photo but you'd have to be pretty bad to not be worth $500 for 8 hours of work.</p>

<p>As far as the one photo goes, well the photo certianly isn't "bad", but being perfectly honest it's also not that compelling either. There's probably a number of things I could pick on, though based on my monitor, exposure would be the biggest (probably PP could correct some). The cut head isn't great either, but that's a dead horse at this point.</p>

<p>Again, it's pretty hard to judge from a single photo. On the other hand, posting more of a client who hasn't agreed to share their photos is pretty iffy in itself, so I'd probably leave it at that.</p>

<p>So you live and learn. Take the criticisms and see what you can learn from them.</p>

<p>You need to step back from primary photographer role and assist and second shoot for a year. Do yourself, and especially your future clients, a favor. $500 or $5000 makes no difference in my opinion. </p>

<p>Well she should now learn a lesson of "You get what you paid" course.</p>

<p>Ultimately to be successful, one has to learn to take in criticisms even though it is hard to swallow.</p>

<p>It is very hard to judge what kind of job you did based on one photo. Could you message me or post a way to see all the images from the wedding?</p>

 

<p>Commenting on the photo itself :: bright light, distracting way-blown highlights.</p>

<p>Cropped WAY too tightly in the VF. Shot in Manual mode (why?) at ISO 100, f/4, 1/350, 55mm with a kit hyperzoom lens. :( No fill flash. (I would suggest shooting this in Av mode, f/5.6 or f/8 and dial in +2/3 EC due to white dress, depending though on where you spot meter)<br /> <br /> EOS 60D and spot metered. The couple's gaze is way off too -- especially his. Also, knowing human nature, this is probably a better than average photo from this wedding -- I would guess there are worse and maybe a few better shots.</p>

<p>And yes, from this photo, she is a very pretty bride, it does come through.</p>

<p><em>"My advice: suck it up. Life isn't fair. Life kinda sucks. Get over it. Bill Gates bought DOS for something like $50,000 and then stole the whole GIU interface will all now enjoy from Apple and is currently one of the richest men in the world. How is that for fair? Better yet, does anyone really care?</em>"</p>

<p>Correction: Apple learned the GUI from Xerox... if you're gonna correct, get it right, please.<br>

"The GUI was first developed at Xerox PARC"</p>

<p>Adorable...</p><div></div>

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<p><em>"My advice: suck it up. Life isn't fair. Life kinda sucks. Get over it. Bill Gates bought DOS for something like $50,000 and then stole the whole GIU interface will all now enjoy from Apple and is currently one of the richest men in the world. How is that for fair? Better yet, does anyone really care?</em>"</p>

 

</blockquote>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Correction: Apple learned the GUI from Xerox... if you're gonna correct, get it right, please. "The GUI was first developed at Xerox PARC"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Darn - beat me to it. +1.</p>

 

The calm professionalism with which Deedee accepts harsh criticism suggests she will go far in this or any other career she

chooses to pursue.

<p>I believe the client would have a different (better) impression of your work if you had charged more. Sometimes cheap price means cheap results in the clients mind. Expensive means better work. Is it? I see photos of the wedding that took place on the other side of the pond that aren't as good as yours.<br /> Charge more next time. The client will view them differently. Join a PPA affiliate. Ours here in Minneapolis have lots of educational opportunities to learn. <br /> The first time I took a 5 day class with Monte Zucker, when he was with us, he said to all of us, "I'm going to learn as much as you." <br /> Does that say something?<br /> Keep at it.</p>

<p>Wedding photography is a business, a craft and an art. To concentrate on the art you must first master the craft.</p>

<p>That can be done in several ways. I think you should find a very experienced wedding photographer (either in real life or online) that are willing to look at your work and give you an honest opinion of the primary areas you need to improve. And also where you stand when it comes to skills, equipment and being able to deliver an acceptable product. If you can't deliver an acceptable product you should probably not be doing wedding work.<br /> Remember also that there are many ways besides being an assistant that you can gain experience that would translate to wedding work. For instance shooting event work, preferably in low light venues.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Correction: Apple learned the GUI from Xerox... if you're gonna correct, get it right, please.<br />"The GUI was first developed at Xerox PARC"</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Correction, Apple <em>bought</em> the technology from Xerox and made it commercially successful. Microsoft swiped it from Apple ;)</p>

<p>Of course life isn't fair. To be honest, I'm the greatest example of that. I mean, come on...I've been given access to all sorts of opportunities, and it might be said I didn't take enough advantage of them.</p>

<p>I didn't think I'd get as much out of this thread as I have. I really don't mind the harsh criticism...it's actually a relief from parents who may have been overly supportive. Or maybe it's the masochist in me.</p>

<p>I've been really struggling lately trying to figure out what to do with myself. I want to accomplish a lot, and up until recently, accomplishment was easy. But now it's time to get serious, and I think somewhere along the way I lost my faith in myself and my drive. Earlier today I was poring through Craigslist, trying to see if I can resign myself to a receptionist job, or wondering if I can get a McDonald's job...or trying to see how I can marry a rich dude (Fat chance, I'm not trophy wife material...and I really like my current partner)....and then I came back to this thread and realized I've spent a lot of my recent years giving up on things once they become difficult. And I'm sick of it. If I want to achieve the level of personal satisfaction I desire, then I must do the work, as you all have done the work. I am going to keep trying. So thank you for every comment here - harsh, positive, and Apple/Microsoft/Xerox related ; }</p>

<p>That being said...how do I begin finding that assistant or second shooter work? I don't think that one photo is a good example of what I can do. I would like to move to San Francisco sooner rather than later, and I am, of course, worried about finding work in such an expensive city. I know there are lots of ways to garner experience, but I think I'd like to be "on set," so to say. Can I still offer my services as a kid birthday party shooter? Shoot my friends' headshots? What work should I take on my own and what work should I wait to take? </p>

<p>I would suggest that you go back to craigslist and look through the available 2nd shooter positions - sometimes you can find a diamond in the rough there. </p>

<p>Also - go to a local camera store and talk to the employees - Many pro shooters talk to them asking for second shooters / assistants - they hear everything and may be able to point you in the right direction. Some even have bulletin boards that you can post your availability as a 2nd shooter on. </p>

<p>And finally - who knows? someone that reads this thread may respond to your request and offer you a spot as a second.</p>

<p>By admitting you were over your head on this wedding and that you still have things to learn, you've taken the first step. You could have very easily said "You know - all of you are wrong - and my photos are great - get lost!" And you haven't done that. You've shown you want to learn and to understand what you need to do better. </p>

<p>As for what to shoot - you basically said that you were comfortable doing low-key weddings - so keep doing those - show the couple your work - and tell them (be honest) where you are at in the learning process and make sure that they are comfortable with your style... Headshots, birthday parties, whatever - keep doing what you are comfortable with, always being open and honest with the client.</p>

<p>Looking back on the thread - one possibility (and you've never really indicated that the client saw your work) - is that the client had a beer drinkers budget and a Champaign appetite - meaning that she could afford you, but really wanted someone like Joe Buissink or Monte Zucker. To avoid that - you need to meet with the client and listen to what they want... I always say that the interview with the client is as much you interviewing them as them interviewing you. Mostly to determine if your styles are going to fit. <br>

And if there isn't a fit - as tough as it is when you're starting out - walk away. </p>

<p>Good luck -</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

<p>Deedee, stop, take a deep breath and relax ... everyone goes through this sort of thing some time along the way, and not just with photography.</p>

<p>One of the toughest things to do with any endeavor is to train yourself to focus, and take it a step at a time. When you look at the over-all things you want to accomplish, or where you want to be, it can feel very daunting. Trying to lose 30lbs can feel overwhelming, but if you shoot for 5lbs it feels doable ... then doable again, and again. Step-by-step advancements are energizing and motivating. Trying to do it all at once is often a formula for failure.</p>

<p>Wedding photography isn't brain surgery or rocket science. The basic principles are simple and straightforward, and the pattern of weddings are not unpredictable nor unknown like a war correspondent might encounter. However, it does take preparation, practice, observation, practice, experience, and practice ... did I mention practice? : -)</p>

<p>One of the most important aspects of wedding photography for any wedding photographer is preparation ... especially for those with less experience. Knowing the client to some degree, getting a schedule of events for the day well in advance, scouting the locations in advance if possible ... and while I personally do not work to a client's shot list nor guarantee delivery if they do provide one, it can help the less experienced ... or run up a red flag indicating a client is expecting too much for the time given.</p>

<p>All of the above acts to build familiarity before the fact so you can ... focus ... on the art and craft part with less distractions.</p>

<p>The art part can be absorbed by exposing yourself to as much good work as possible ... looking and asking yourself why this works. Then practice shooting people anywhere and everywhere you can in all kinds of lighting scenarios.</p>

<p>It really isn't all that hard if you take it a step at a time. </p>

<p> </p>

<p>I sencond for Marc W said. Practice brings you closer to the desired outcome. <br>

With the respect to your question: I would have NOT refunded the money, if the bride saw your work before she booked you, she knew exactly what the outcome would be. I will not comment on your work, that is not the place, but remeber you can shoot wider and crop later, for those have absolutely have to have their every strand of hair in every photo.<br>

Tom</p>

<p>And just a dose of reality. San Francisco is a very expensive city. I don't know your financial situation but you will probably want to line up a full time job first and then work at your photography as a part time thing until you build up more experience. It's going to be a lot of work. Many people will fail at this. But if it's your passion, your dream, then you will find a way to make it work. </p>

<p>I am not so sure I would go looking on CL for "opportunities" to 2nd shoot. The idea is you want to <em>learn</em> both photography and business. I am not sure you will learn either from a CL shooter. I might look for a professional in "whatever" area whose work you respect. Offer to work for free. When we "train" an assistant, it is always an unpaid job. But then again, beyond showing up and presenting yourself well, you don't have any <em>real</em> responsibilities. Carry bags, makes sure a light stand doesn't blow over, go get me a bottle of water. :) For me, the first step is simply proving you are reliable enough to invest my time in. That is what you would need to convey to the professional. Then simply start learning: pay attention, ask questions.</p>

<p>Deedee,<br>

How do the images that your bride is criticizing compare to the work you showed her originally? I would say that's the true test.</p>

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<p>Correction, Apple <em>bought</em> the technology from Xerox and made it commercially successful. Microsoft swiped it from Apple ;)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Correction correction. Apple and Microsoft both swiped the technology from Xerox. When Apple sued Microsoft, Microsoft (not Apple) licensed (sort of like "bought") it from Xerox, and under encouragement from Microsoft, Xerox then sued Apple. Although Xerox's suit was dismissed, it did help Microsoft get something like 180 claims of Apple's suit dismissed.</p>

<p>Apple is the "great litigator". You're no one unless you've been sued by Apple, sued Apple, or entered into an enormously complex licensing agreement with Apple where you will never figure out exactly what you've bought or sold. Reference "Faust" or "The Devil and Daniel Webster".</p>

<p>It's a dog eat dog world... with reference to both topics in this thread.<br>

Unless the wedding pictures were willfully shot badly, the OP has made only one mistake... agreeing to a refund.</p>

<p>To OP,<br>

I'm a Green Photog just like you but I would never agree to refund her the money. This photo is average at best but for $500, it's not that bad if this represent your average work. People generally agree that a $50K car should be better than a $25K car. But when it comes to wedding photography, some people expect to have a $5K album for $500 and that's just not realistic.<br>

The only thing I have to point out is that you can't cut it shooting with the cheap 55-250mm lens. It's not a bad lens for the price but thin depth of field is the easiest thing to sell in wedding photos. Of course, you can't justify buying some f2.8 lenses when you only charge $500.<br>

You need to have a thick face when doing this kind of stuff and if you don't you won't last very long.</p>

<p>... um, Ken why is it ever wrong to shoot in Manual? It's pretty rare when I (or the other photographers that I know) <em>don't</em> shoot in manual... :/</p>

<p> . . . I am not answering for Ken in any manner, but you'll note my comment was also to stop down to F/6.3 (when using that lens).</p>

<p>I didn't note that Ken wrote it was WRONG to use Manual - he just asked WHY was Manual Mode being used.</p>

<p>I wouldn't be surprised if he and I are barking up the same tree - merely to get that lens stopped down a bit <em>and to better understand WHY the Photographer made the technical choices she made and if there are not valid reason for the choices made, the object is to stimulate some thought and preparedness in this regard.</em></p>

<p>Using Av Mode (Ken's suggestion) ensures the lens is stopped down quite effectively, and he also gave the EC for the shooting scenario.<br>

He also mentioned (and IMO implied questioned the use of) the <em>Spot Metering:</em> which I noticed at the time I investigated the image; but I did not mention in my commentary.</p>

<p>The OP has not commented upon these technical issues Ken and I raised; or commented that these matters were (or were not) contributing factors on the day. I still believe they were. The most important issue being that likely the wrong lens, was on the camera.</p>

<p>WW</p>