My experience with the M8...a few observations.

<p>I'm not sure how many of you will care, or want to read my post but I recently bought a used M8 and I would like to share my thoughts on the purchase. <br>

Let me start off by saying that I am a long time Canon SLR/DSLR shooter, but my loyalty to that brand is only really attributable to the fact I have a large Canon EF lens collection. Aside from that, I would probably be perfectly happy shooting Nikon, or even maybe Sony. OK, not Sony, but you get my drift. At any rate, I have become increasingly annoyed about the size of my 1 series EOS and have always been intrigued by the size to performance ratio of the Leica M series. Recently I find that for family outings and street walking I want something of superb image quality and compact size. I experimented with the G10 and S90 from Canon, both of which are great cameras but I always felt like I was compromising with the smaller sensor size.<br>

At any rate, I recently came across a used Leica M8 with box and accessories for $2200. This seemed like a good deal to me and I thought, what the heck...time to scratch that Leica itch! For a starter lens I picked up a new Zeiss 25mm 2.8 ZM and headed out shooting. Here is what I experienced:<br>

<strong>Craftsmanship</strong><br>

Call me gullible, shallow or whatever....but I am one of those people who appreciate fine craftsmanship and the Leica M8 has that in spades. You pick the camera up and the thing just reeks of quality, from the heft of the camera itself, to the feel of the metal body. I realize this has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on image quality or the handling of the camera...but the M8 really is a thing of beauty.<br>

<strong>Lenses</strong><br>

Everybody says that owning a Leica M series and putting any lens on it besides a Leica is like dropping a Kia 4 banger into a Ferrari. Unfortunately for me...I don't have the dollars at the moment for the Leica 24mm Elmarit Asph, so I have to 'slum it' for now with the Zeiss 25mm 2.8 ZM Biogon. With that said, I do fully intend on my next purchase being a genuine Leica...even if it is an older non-coded 50mm. Either way, there are tonnes of lenses available for the M series, from the affordable Voightlander, to the expensive Zeiss, to the ridiculously expensive Leica lenses. I have to say, the vast lens collection available for the M series weighed heavily in my original purchase decision.<br>

<strong>Image Quality</strong><br>

In a word, wow. Wow. Did I say wow yet?? Man, for a 5 year old camera the M8 produces amazing looking files at lower ISO's. The clarity and detail...the crisp sharpness from the Zeiss/Leica combo is just really amazing. You hear all the time about how sharp Rangefinder images can be due to the lens design that is not compromised by a mirror in the camera body...but until you experience it you really don't appreciate it. Canon wide angle lenses have been the bane of my existence...until the recently released 17mm TSE there really was nothing from Canon that was sharp across the entire field of view. One of the great advantages to the M series, and rangefinders in general is that there are quite a few terrific quality wide angle lenses to choose from.<br>

I imagine part of the perceived sharpness from the Leica also has much to do with the lack of an AA filter, and I am very impressed. I have taken a few hundred photos already of various different subjects and so far have not come across any 'ruined' photos due to lack of AA filter. I really wish Canon would offer a 1 series non-AA version as an option at the top tier of their camera range.<br>

<strong>So to summarize, thus far the Leica M8 rocks!! But.....</strong><br>

...and you know there <em>is</em> a but....there <em>always</em> is, nothing is perfect despite what the Leica faithful will tell you. There are a LOT of shortcomings to both the Leica M8 specifically, and to rangefinder cameras generally. For starters, let's talk about the style of shooting with a rangefinder. <br>

Ask a Leica faithful about what they love about shooting rangfinders and after they stop talking about the amazing lenses they'll start to wax on about being 'discrete'...the ability to capture the 'decisive moment' due to the lack of a mirror blocking your view as you snap away at your shutter. What a bunch of hogwash! First of all, in this day and age there is nothing at all discrete about walking around with a Leica M8/M9. Anyone who knows even a little bit about cameras knows that Leicas are ridiculously expensive and stare at you and your camera. The other 25% of the people on the street who don't know/care about Leica <em>still</em> stare at you and your gear because it looks like you are shooting some antique camera from the 50's. Which brings me to the all manual focus 'feature' of rangefinders...<br>

I challenge any Leica guru who fancies himself/herself as a pro with using the manual focus to a shoot-off with my 1 series Canon. I guarantee you, the mirror flipping up and blocking my viewfinder view will not, and has NEVER cost me a single lost photo opportunity. I tell you what WILL cost you a photo opp, and that is trying to quickly manual focus, especially if you are dealing with razor thin DOF on a fast lens. This opinion that some have that lack of features such as AF somehow make you a faster photographer is really beyond my reasoning. With that said, the manual focus on the M8 DOES work, it just isn't as fast, and there is something really satisfying about getting a crazy, sharp photo that you focussed yourself on the fly. I went into my new Leica relationship knowing that speed would be a trade-off, but I think some don't realize just how much they rely on AF for a quick photo. It doesn't matter how good you get with the MF, in most cases it will never be as quick as a pro AF system.<br>

<strong>...another but...</strong><br>

I'm all for style over function (to the chagrin of my father), but even I am appalled by the poor user interface on the M8. I understand the purists want to keep the camera as simple as possible but here are a couple suggestions.<br>

1) Why can't we add just one more dial to the top of the camera for exposure compensation?? I like to shoot in aperture priority mode (, a travesty I know!) but in order to get to the exposure compensation I have to actually go through the menu on the back of the camera, select it, and then change it. Are you kidding me? Even my $400 G10 has an exposure compensation dial. I can hear those of you already that disagree with me, 'just shoot in full manual'...well guess what, it's not as fast (at least for me). There is nothing simpler than shooting in aperture priority where the shooter has full creative control by turning the aperture ring, and than dialing in exposure compensation as needed.<br>

2) But what about the ISO?? Ok, give me one other quick button for the ISO, this time on the back of the camera...maybe I just depress the button and than rotate the new exposure compensation dial Leica just added for me and that changes the ISO...Hey, that's a great idea! It's stupid to have to dig through a menu to get to the ISO and then change it...once again, not very quick at all if you want to capture that 'decisive moment'.<br>

<strong>...and last but not least..another but...</strong><br>

In this day and age of stratospheric ISO settings that seem magically clean at almost all settings on the newest DSLR's, the Leica M8 really does lag behind. So far, it appears that from ISO640 and lower I get pretty darn good results. Above ISO800 you better expose perfectly in-camera because if you underexposed in the field good luck making up for it in post, at least if you care about noise. And therein lies my next point, I don't really care about the noise. If I want perfectly clean images at high ISO I'll just shoot my Canon. For some reason I actually <em>like</em> the noise at high ISO on the M8...makes me feel nostalgic like I am shooting film or something. If you care about noise and are considering an M8, well think hard if you can live with it.</p>

<p><strong>...well that's a lot of buts...</strong><br>

BUT...I <em>really</em> love my M8! I don't know what it is, there's just a certain <em>je ne sais quoi </em>about the M8 and the Leica mystique in general that compells me. I can live with it's idiosyncracies: manual focus, slightly innacurate framelines (oh yeah, that was a BIGGEE for me, and I forgot to mention!), key features buried in Menu tabs etc, because I just love the look of the images I get, even if they are magentas where you should be seeing black...<br>

Yes, I purposely left the lack of UV/IR filter off my list because others online have already hashed that to death. I thought maybe some of my points would be uselful to someone looking at making a jump to the M8 or rangefinders in general, so hopefully someone out there will read this, and if you did, thanks for taking the time!<br>

Oops, almost forgot, if you look at my profile I haven't posted any Leica M8 photos yet, they are on another computer so I'll post some later if anyone actually bothers to read this thread:)</p>

<p>Clint,<br>

Congratulations on the M8 purchase! The shortcomings of the M8 have been discussed at length but I also think it is a great camera - just keep the ISO low as you mentioned above. I bought an M9 recently (wow!) and am keeping my M8 because (in my mind) it is worth far more than the re-sale value and it is wonderful to carry an extra M body and lens so no need to change lenses in the field. Happy shooting! Look forward to seeing the pics.</p>

It's quite misleading to say that the ISO and exposure compensation controls are "buried" in a menu.

Exposure compensation adjustment is, if I recall my time with an M8, as accessible and quick as with a Canon 5D.

 

Also, if you know how to use depth of field to pre-focus, that's faster than focusing on an object with any

manual or auto focus lens. It's instantaneous.

<p>Congrats, and welcome to the world of M "pleasures" - read: spending a considerable amount of your future disposable income on small lenses costing your at least three times the price of a new G12 :)</p>

<p>Jokes aside, I have not used any Zeiss lens, but from what I hear they are pretty close to if not up to par with the corresponding Leicas.... I am actually considering the 35/2.0 Biogon to fill the gap between 28 and 50.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>1) Why can't we add just one more dial to the top of the camera for exposure compensation??<br /> 2) But what about the ISO??</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Not to rub it in, bu for a mere ~$4000 more you get those things pretty conveniently resolved on the M9.... maybe someone will take pity and somehow implement that in future firmware.... should not be too hard.....</p>

<p>I liked my M8 and I actually miss that it doubled as an IR camera :)</p>

<p>Neither the DSLR or the RF Leica digital will give you everything, as you have found out. You pick the one that does best what you need, and maybe use the other for the rest of the shots. For one thing , make sure you have the latest firmware in your M8. The exposure compensation is very easily accessed and useful and I agree about the DOF use with normal and wide angle lenses. ISO is not a big thing to alter. Remember when you had to actually change films to do that? The ISO change on the M8 is quite rapidly achieved, as are other parameters like lighting (white balance), resolution, raw or jpeg or both, etc. No big deal unless you are working as fast as a photojournalist. The manual focusing is for me one of the good things about the Leica. Very precise, and you see what you actually focus on and the overall VF image is perfectly clear for viewing You also see what is outside of the frameline, which is often a great advantage.</p>

<p>The Zeiss lenses are very fine and some are as good or better than the equivalent Leica lens. Both usually tower above most other lenses. Some Voigtlander lenses, like the 12mm aspherical that becomes a 16mm lens on the M8, are real quality/price bargains and great performers.</p>

<p>The differences between RF and SLR, or DSLR, are well known. Apart from the main ones, just the difference in bulk and the lack of an AA filter over the sensor are enough to make me happy with my M8, When it doesn't get used, it is usually because I am loading B&W fiilm into my medium format RF camera.</p>

<p>Hi Clint<br>

Sold my m8 and I'm M-less...for now ;)<br>

Two suggestions -<br>

Instead of exposure comp, try - lock with shutter half press, then open/close aperture as needed. I found that much faster for exposure comp on the fly. Not a perfect solution but as fast as it gets.<br>

For pre-focus speed, i like the tabbed lenses. Not everyone likes them but ... focus by feel - tab at 6 O-clock means I'm focused at about 1.5m. etc. Can get fairly close.<br>

Have fun<br>

Charles</p>

<p>Pretty much my experience, too. I just picked up an M8.2 and the Leica 24 3.8 and 75 2.5.</p>

<p>This is my 3rd time around with Leica (wish I had kept those previous lenses!) The menu system doesn't really bother me. ISO is easily changed and I hardly ever use auto exposure. As far as focusing is concerned, it works for me. Too many great photographers took many great photos before the advent of AF. And, with the Leica lenses, zone focusing works well for general shooting. If I needed AF speed, I would have kept my Nikon D3s.</p>

<p>Enjoy your new toy, err, I mean...., well, you know. :)</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>It's quite misleading to say that the ISO and exposure compensation controls are "buried" in a menu. Exposure compensation adjustment is, if I recall my time with an M8, as accessible and quick as with a Canon 5D.<br>

Also, if you know how to use depth of field to pre-focus, that's faster than focusing on an object with any manual or auto focus lens. It's instantaneous.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>First of all, thanks to everybody for their comments. To Ray, who made the statement above I would say this...<br>

Exposure compensation is NOT as quick and easy on the M8 as a Canon 5D, or a any of the other Canon prosumer and higher models. With my 5D/7D/1DS2 I can change the exposure compensation without ever having my eye leave the viewfinder. You cannot do this on the M8. As for using DOF scale to pre-focus, I am well aware of that but try it with a fast lens wide open and see how many OOF shots you have...a lot more than a good AF DSLR.</p>

<p>Anyway, I understand the differences between rangefinder and DSLR, and I can live with them. I just think that there are so many areas that the Leica rangefinders could be improved but there are a lot of people out there for whatever reason are too traditionalist to consider change. It is ridiculous to suggest to future Leica users that the camera's deficiencies don't exist, or that they somehow are just not 'good enough photographers' if they can or won't live with the camera's quirks.<br>

Saying that great photographers did just fine with manual focus is akin to saying gramps got around fine on his horse and buggy, doesn't mean that most of us want to go back to that! Much like the horse and buggy, manual focus is slow yet purposeful, and in some cases beyond pure nostalgia it is even better, but generally speaking a car is quicker and more efficient.</p>

<p>Anyways, I don't want to turn this into a flame war. I actually love the camera, quirks and all. I actually don't mind manual focus either...I would just never try and tell someone it was somehow better, because 90% of the time it is not.</p>

 

 

<p> Congratulations on the M8. Beautiful little camera. I was looking at Leica's a few weeks in Palo Alto and they do seem very nice. However after today I need a tripod. I fell in the ocean earlier and bent a leg on my Bogen 3001 (it whacked a rock). The camera stayed dry but I did not from the waist down. I just went home after that. I did not get my shot.</p>

<p>Well Ross...at least it was you that got wet and not the camera!</p>

<p> I am glad the camera and lens stayed dry. Of course a Leica M8 and lens taking a bath would be much more serious then my F100. I was able to fix my tripod. It had a dent in the leg kind of almost like a center punch made it. The leg would not slide any longer. I just forced it when I got home and drilled out the dented area with a 3/16th bit and it removed the dented area and the leg slides freely again..It just has a small hole in it now. That tripod has been around the block however. About 3 yrs ago I was climbing some rocks in Big Sur and I lost my balance and the tripod fell about 100 feet to rocks below. The ballhead shattered and the bubble broke but other then that the Bogen legs were ok. I bought a new ballhead on the way home at Camera West, Monterey. That camera store has since left Monterey. Oh, the tripod was full of sand so I also completely disassembled the tripod and washed out all the sand and then lubed it with some silicon spray. </p>

<p>I've had my M8 since Feb. 2007. Whatever its problems, it is a part of me. I pair it with a film RF when I go out. A magnifier helps when shooting with lenses like the Summilux 75/1.4, but I tend to leave it off these days. Nearly all my contributions to <em>Viewfinder </em>have involved the M8. I will probably get an M9 some day soon. Am as addicted to film as I am the M8. </p>

<p>The M8 grows on you and spoils you in many way without you realizing it. Weight is one way. You don't appreciate it until you pick up a professional DSLR. I have considered a full-frame Nikon, have been duly impressed, and have wondered how I would care it around. </p>

<p>I believe the ISO holds up well to 1250. At ISO 2500 it is a bit dicey. And only in extremely dim lighting. I might add that I've gotten exhibition quality prints (A2 size) from ISO 1250.</p>

<p>Anyway, Clint, enjoy the M8 and be patient with it. It is an experimental camera. </p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Am as addicted to film as I am the M8.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>+1</p>

<p>Clint, the Leica certainly has its shortcomings. Macro and telephoto being the two most obvious, to me. AF, not so much.</p>

<p>AF inaccuracy wide open is the prime reason I switched back to Nikon from Canon. Also, I am not sure if it is even possible to put AF into an M body/lens. </p>

<p>My biggest complaint (besides price!) is ISO performance. Rather the lack of. Not sure why Leica couldn't have upped the ISO on the M9. I am happy with my M8.2. I knew what I was buying (back) into. Just wish I could afford faster glass. (I miss not having the 35 and 50 1.4 and the 90 2.0.)</p>

<p>Enjoy.</p>

<p>I never quite get the posts about the M8 shortcomings - it is what it is. If you don't understand that, don't buy it. If you do understand it, you use it for what it can do and don't complain about what it can't do. </p>

<p>As for being discrete - you'll have to use it for a while to understand. Non-photographically oriented people - that's probably about 90%+ of the population - have absolutely NO idea what a Leica camera is at all. I brought my M8 into an office situation about two weeks ago, and the general reaction was, "Leica?" "I've never heard of that brand." "How long have they been making cameras?"</p>

<p>You can walk around with the Leica and people think you have some little point-and-shoot (well, really you do) that is a snapshot tourist camera. So, they don't get intimidated when you point it at them. You've been shooting this a short time, I've used Leicas for over 30 years and there is a tangible reaction difference. Perhaps you get stared at because of your demeanour, and not the camera?</p>

<p>I can't figure out why you're using exposure compensation. The Kodak sensor likes full exposure as the shadows become noisy when under exposed, and over exposure means clipped highlights. Set compensation at zero and the sensor delivers great color and a wide dynamic range. I think you'll find that if you slow down a bit, shoot at ISO 160 and review the histogram immediately after exposure, you'll learn the camera more quickly and how the sensor likes to be exposed. </p>

<p>Yeah, the high ISO performance is not good, but, you'll find that ISO 320 and long exposure times can give you really good performance. I've done some testing at ISO 160 and minutes long exposures and you can get really good results as the dark frame subtraction works very well. I understand that this is not the same as being able to hand hold a camera at ISO 9600 and get a usable image, but - if you understand the work arounds - it is possible to make very low light photos, just in a different way. Again, it is what it is, and you use it for what it will do, not for what it won't do - not unlike you would do with any other tool. </p>

 

<p>I would have to say that I agree with some of the seasoned Leica users here. Don't understand the clamor for AF, or the need for camera controlled exposure compensation. To say that the Leica is a horse in a car world is also an unfair comparison. I would say that the more appropriate comparison would be between a Miata and an SUV. Your need for AF and Exposure Compensation is more akin to saying you don't understand why the Miata only has 2 seats and does not have a fixed roof. To me, a rangefinder and an SLR are different tools in a photographers modern arsenal, and it's not a throw back or old fashioned.<br>

I, too, came from SLRs and moved into the rangefinder world 3 years ago, and never looked back. Here's my thought. After using rangefinders exclusively for 3 years, moving back to SLRs, it seems like I am loosing control. The camera always seem to get in the way with the many impenetrable layers of automation. I just like how elemental the rangefinders are. You are completely in control, deciding on how you want the image to turn out.<br>

BTW, if you wanted exposure compensation, toggle the aperture ring on the lens back and forth. That way, you don't have to have the camera leave your eyes. However if you want it to shoot 3-5 continuous shots machine gun style, the SLR is your camera.</p>

<p>As I said, the M8 grows on you. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>BTW, if you wanted exposure compensation, toggle the aperture ring on the lens back and forth</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Sorry...but that is a poor work around for exposure compensation. 9 out of 10 times I am using a particular aperture because that is what I want/need for the creative outcome...ie: DOF. This is why I shoot aperture priority...it is very easy, I set the aperture I want and I can dial in exposure compensation if I know the lighting will trick the camera's metering. </p>

<p>As for the other poster who asked why I would use exposure compensation..there are a host of different lighting conditions where exposure compensation is quick and useful...I'm sure you can think of a few yourself if you wanted to...like shooting a subject in the snow as an example. </p>

<p>At any rate, I find it amusing how many people clamour to defend the Leica M8/M9 if anyone dares to question it's shortcomings. Like I have already said many times...I actually LIKE the M8, but I am not brainwashed like many others here to think that some poor 'design elements like exposure compensation buried in a Menu equates to a 'feature'.</p>

<p>At the end of the day I have the M8 for the excellent image quality and crazy, good lenses. Beacuase of this I am willing to live with manual focus, poor control layout, high noise, average battery life, and insane pricing.</p>

 

<p>Why do you need exposure compensation when you have a camera with one of the finest semi-spot metering systems ever made? I have never needed exposure compensation when using a Leica M body with a TTL meter. Just take a reading from a suitable area of the scene to give you the exact exposure you need. Or shoot im manual mode.</p>

<p>So I don't see the lack of an exposure compensation dial as "a shortcoming". An extra dial would add complication that isn't needed. Less is more.</p>

<p>As for your complaints further up the thread about your difficulties with manual focus, I can understand that someone who is comfortable with a high-end DSLR with blistering AF performance might find a split image rangefinder slightly quaint. But it is very fast when you get used to it, and once you have some experience you should be able to beat the accuracy of DSLR AF systems that often get it wrong.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, if you are looking for all your favourite "DSLR features" in a Leica rangefinder body you are going to be disappointed. Perhaps a DSLR would suit you better?</p>

<p>Alternatively, the Fujifilm FinePix X-100 offers automated "DSLR features" in a high quality metal body with a good lens while giving the appearance of a traditional rangefinder camera.</p>

<p>Leica is not and will never be the perfect answers for Photography. Leica had very good reputation , but also many defaults...then it is impossible for comparing leica with other mark, I thought no one can tell, by looking at a picture, which camera was used for. Just for someone who loves leica, this camera and its lenses are the best tools in his hands, he knows he can trust in it and thus giving more pleasure and successes in his work.<br /> ( Camera M8 / 18mm/3.8 S-Elmar - Melbourne- Australia)<br /><br /></p><div></div>