Stupid to buy like new Leica R4 mot electronic?

<p>I work in China, where a local camera store has offered me a leica R4 MOT Electronic, made in Portugal. It comes with in a box, with all original packing. It looks, and even smells, new; I doubt, and the store owner doubts, that it has ever been used. It seems to work perfectly; I put one role of film through it without problems. <br>

But i have read horror stories about this model. Some say that it was such a stinker that it almost destroyed the company. The electrical system was supposedly "plagued" with problems.<br>

Anyway, the going price is US500, and I have not bargained yet (and, this being China, means that I do have to bargain. I will get a slightly better price). I should explain that I once had a beautiful Leica R6.2 that I loved to look at -- I never used it much because I like medium format or bigger. I am fine with digital, but the digital cameras that I like are way out of my budget. And I like film.<br>

I would now like to have a 35mm camera --35mm film is easy to get in China. My medium format cameras and lenses are getting heavier as I get older. And I forgot to mention, I still still have some Leica R lenses. There are some R6 and R7 cameras around -- but those that are in mint condition are many times the price. <br>

The dealer (supposedly) offers a 7 day return policy, and a 30 day repair guarantee. Any opinions? Would I be a sucker to buy this? Are the flaws with this camera such that it would most likely require repair (if it can be repaired) within a year? I really don't want to buy into a 30 year old plague.</p>

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<p>I don't know about Chinese prices - but R4 on ebay are usually less than $300. In fact, I had to let a pristine R4 go for under $200 about a year ago; equally pristine R5 and R-E went for twice that amount. Normally, I would assume that any R4 still around doesn't have the problem - but with one that has never been used - who knows. Also, if I recall correctly, the problems were mostly in the first year production run - but nonetheless, the entire R4 run has a tarnished reputation as a result.<br /> <br /> http://www.photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/0042Sw</p>

<p>Im not a Leica expert but Ive owned an SL for a while and often thought about the R3 and R4. Price aside, this camera has a similar build and technology of a really nice Minolta (top end) camera from the 80's. So you might expect various bits of plastic or foam to degrade over time. Like most really nice Minoltas/Nikons/Olympus' from the period, many things can be fixed but this is how you might set your expectations around reliability. The bad press at the time was because older reflexes like the SL/SL2 and of course the M series had a much better build which the later R models never lived up to. In my opinion the technology and build of the R3,4,5,6,7 are all broadly similar.</p>

<p>I have a R4 for more than 5 years, no problem. On the other hand my R5 was sent for repair once. </p>

<p>The glitches that plagued the electronic Minolta/Leitz SLRs didn't effect every camera. But the entire line was unfairly persecuted and de-valued.</p>

<p>I can't say for the Chinese market, but $500 seems steep in the USA. Of course "new in box", will always arouse the collectors and raise prices. And maybe such a clean specimen shouldn't be shot?</p>

<p>The real beauty of the R cameras though, is the R glass. The 2nd version Summicron R's, (and later) are amazing lenses.</p>

<p>All of them have more or less similar prices but, IMHO, the SL offers a better price/quality ratio. It is really well built, much, much better than the R3 and it can be purchased for a low price (body around $200). Next in my list is the R4, quite pleasing camera, smaller than the R3 and SL. If you can afford a SL2, go for it, it may be the best full manual SLR ever built, but its on the heavy side (similar to the SL) and the more expensive of the group. The R3 is the last on my list of useable Leica SLRs (and I own each model). </p>

<p>I live in HK, a part of China now. US$ 500 is much too expensive for this camera. Few people want R series Leicas now, sad but true. The lenses however, are desirable. Don't be a sucker for this camera, mint condition or not. </p>

<p>You might start by offering him $200, then work your way up to $250 - 280. I wouldn't pay more than that. Bargaining can be fun though, and I've had many a laugh by offering ridiculously low prices. Get him to throw in some rolls of film if he's being sticky about it! </p>

<p>I appreciate your responses; I think I will pass this camera up. I also worry about the store's "return" policy; local ideas about good business do not always include good ethics (I recently purchased some B+H filters that turned out to be badly made copies. I went back to the dealer, and I was simply told that if I was stupid enough to buy them, I deserved what I got -- I went to the police, and the police told me the same thing).<br>

There are bargains to be had in China -- several months ago I purchased several Pentax 645 FA lenses in perfect condition for a very low price; when the digital 645 was announced, prices on the same lenses doubled or even tripled. It is hard to believe that there is so much speculation in a used camera market!<br>

I have great memories of my old R6.2, and when I saw this "like new" camera, I almost bought it on the spot. As I mentioned, I still have some R lenses that I liked very much. Jerry, would you consider an R6.2 or R7 cameras to be a bad idea also? Prices for R6.2 are around $1000 for models in very good condition. R7 s are much less expensive. </p>

 

<p>Hi Mike, I would surely go for a good deal on a R7. R6.2 have become a bit of a cult. R7 never had any real problems, are sturdy, can do just about everything except AF. A pristine R4 in box and all is something for a collector.<br>

Cheers,<br>

Pete</p>

<p>In my opinion, the R7 is a much nicer (better) camera than the R4 and R5, and really clean used ones are generally quite 'affordable' nowadays. Unless someone needs the specific features of a R6.2, there seems to be liittle to commend it over the R6, which appears to be falling in price in the UK currently. If I was to chose a (backup) Leica R right now it'd be a R7, or possibly a R8 if I could handle one for a while.</p>

<p>Mike, Having only a Leicaflex SL I believe that you know your R series cameras better than I do. I can only comment on the prices compared to HK. The camera has to match your lenses cams', firstly. Then condition and price to your satisfaction. Also, are your Leica lenses already with you in China? If not, then why rush into it?</p>

<p>Personally I would like to own a R6.2 someday. Prices for Leica R cameras, generally they are going down, not up. The lenses are in demand as they are being used on digital bodies, so they have kept their value.</p>

<p>R6.2 is likely the best of the lot, but the R6 is usually less than half the price, and is 99% as good (only things missing are the 1/2000th shutter speed and the viewfinder light switch is not in the correct direction (easy to engage accidentally).</p>

<p>For the best bargain, look for an R3, but check the meter and make sure the needle isn't bouncy. I did all of the research, and settled on the R6. When I went looking for a 50 Summicron, the one I ordered came attached to an R3, which is so nice that I use it more than the R6. IMO, the R3 is the most underrated camera in the entire Leica range, and perhaps their nicest SLR. Shutter release action in particular is far nicer than R6 or even SL.</p>