And then the clergy said: "This is a holy event-no photos."

<p>Hello everyone and thank you ahead of time for your insight. This is a two question thread :)<br>

Question 1:<br>

While getting to know my clients I asked about the ceremony and if there was anything I needed to know. Clients replied, "nope." I arrive at said clients event and all is fine and dandy. I photograph the wedding processional, the bride being given away, etc.. All of a sudden the clergy man stops and says, "This is a holy event. Due to that there will be no photography."<br>

I froze. I know there can be restrictions with churches, but I've never been to a no photograph at all ceremony.<br>

I ended up staying in the back of the church, turned my flash off, and took some photos but didn't catch the ceremony in its entirety.<br>

My question is: If this situation happens again (situation= clients are misinformed or clueless about there being a no photography policy) should I put down my camera? Or try to shoot?</p>

<p> Question 2:<br>

Same clients. Contract states they ordered and paid for four hours of coverage. To make a long story short couple disregarded their time line and everything was done at their convenience. A half hour after I was supposed to leave the bride still hadn't tossed the bouquet, I hadn't been able to take a few photos of the rings (the bride and groom insisted on accompanying them), cut the cake, had the father daughter/mother son dance, etc.. The bride talked me into staying another hour and a half because she had to have these photos (yet wasn't willing to pay the extra rate)<br>

I know our contract clearly states I had a right to leave- I'm curious how other professionals would have handled the situation.</p>

<p> Thanks everyone.</p>

<p>Well, I can't answer for staying. We have (not generally more than 30 or 45 min) just to make sure the bouquet toss, etc photos are taken, and then I just don't charge (1.5 hrs would be a different story). Generally, especially when there's a DJ, we'll be conferring with him and talking about moving the couple along and giving them nudges about the time, and guest leaving, etc etc.</p>

<p>Now, as for the officiant.... That right there is PRECISELY why we always go to rehearsals. We want to see the place before hand, get to know the wedding party, and TALK TO THE OFFICIANT!!! We ask him if he has any special preferences, we schmooze (and get more leeway or special favors a lot of the time), and we make nice. And if he still says no.... I'd probably go to the back, turn off my flash, and not move around, but still take some photos.</p>

<p>Virtually this exact same thing happened to me. I always brought up the "are there any restrictions" question with the b&g, and the MOB promised me that there were no problems and that her family had been going to this church for 50+ years.</p>

<p>Of course, there were problems. I was able to sneak a handful of photos from the choir loft and through the chapel doors (that some kind ushers held open for me). I felt bad for the B&G, but it wasn't my fault. And to be fair, they didn't blame me.</p>

<p>In the future? Just be sure to tell your clients early on that they MUST talk to their church and officiant to clear up any possible misunderstandings. This doesn't happen often, but when it does....what a mess.</p>

<p>I don't rely on the couple for this information. I always ask the officiant himself, before the ceremony. Couples often don't really know what the rules are. I would not have been in your position, but if I were, and the officiant said 'no photography', I would put my camera down, sit down and observe, so that I could recreate the highlights after the ceremony. As soon as it was over, I would run to speak to the officiant before he took his robes off and ask for restaged shots immediately.</p>

<p>As for staying late, I am usually lenient. However, an hour and a half is too lenient. I allow maybe 30 minutes or so of 'free' time. If it creeps to an hour, I speak to the couple and start charging.</p>

<p>Two of the busy studios I sold jobs for handled both of these items differently, and my own policy was/is a bit different. Studio A we would give the couple a form that had to be filled out by the officiant and returned two weeks prior to he wedding along with a "planning guide" with further details about the organization of their day. They were also very strict about mini coverages, 2pm - 6pm was exactly that or each half hour was charged for period. Studio B had a policy of just getting the ceremony info from the couple and talking to the officiant only on the day of. There was no mini coverage only half day or full day coverage. My own personal was the same ceremony info as Studio A and three coverages. Mini, up to three hours; half day six hours max; and full coverage. This was sold appropriately so I never really had a problem. Now I only do small "portrait/candid" events/weddings where I will shoot short jobs only.</p>

<p>Thanks, Dave! The officiant form is something I will be utilizing in the future. Most of my ceremonies have not taken place in civilian religious facilities (I work with a lot of my fellow military spouses- base facilities are all pretty standard).<br>

Like Nadine said, it's wise to begin charging after an hour- but I see a loop hole in my contract. I need to put in a clause that states if I am requested to stay after contracted time X amount is added on per X amount of time.</p>

<p>Nadine is correct. Always speak directly with the officiant just prior to the ceremony and respect their wishes. A form for the officiant to fill out weeks before the wedding seems to me to be an unnecessary PIA, it's also possible that the officiant and the guidelines can change right up to the last minute.</p>

<p>Suggest that you price your services by the job/products rather than by some hourly rate.</p>

<p>Some church ministers allow video, but not still photography during the service -- go figure...</p>

<p>A wedding photographer has to cope with the situation, and the church rules are one thing you have to work with in covering a wedding.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>often "No photos" is aimed at the guests as much as the hired photographer. Which is understandable given the plague of people on a mission wielding their P&S with pop-up flash.</p>

<p>I always speak to the officiant prior to the ceremony, and if necessary let them know how discrete I can be ... and listen to them as to where I can shoot from. A tripod, 70-200/2.8 zoom+1.4X is part of my Church kit at every wedding ... just in case. Often a compromise can be reached if you are respectful of the officiant's concerns.</p>

<p>As to time overages, I have it clearly in my contract that 1/2 hour additional is $XXX and 1 hour is twice that amount. I usually work with an assistant, and do not feel it fair to make them work longer for free either.</p>

<p>When the client reaches their cut off point, they can make the decision then. Since I review their time-line prior to the day, that rarely happens. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Some church ministers allow video, but not still photography during the service -- go figure</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's because videos tend to be unobtrusive while still photographers may use flash, move around and can attract people's attention. That is why Marc's method is a good one.</p>

<p>Why wouldn't you want to have 1-1/2 to two weeks to know there's a potential problem and work it out well in advance, rather than running in last minute and negotiating your case five minutes before? I've been on both sides hundred of times, and I know which I prefer.</p>

<p>I agree with Dave, but different people work in different ways. I should have talked to the minister prior to the ceremony, but my report time was 30 minutes prior to the ceremony and I never saw him- I did talk to the church coordinator a bit. She never mentioned anything.<br>

I feel bad about taking photos and realize I shouldn't have. I was like a deer in the headlights- this was my first time even hearing of a no photo policy. Live and learn. On a positive note, even without a flash or tripod in a dimly lit church I got some fantastic photographs. Another positive: this thread has given me several things to consider for my future events. :)</p>

<p>Fortunately the moment the priest said no photography you were legally "off the hook" as far as photos lost for your client. But of course it is still a let down.</p>

<p>As wedding photographers we have to be easy to adapt to whatever unexpected situations are thrown at us and keep smiling no matter what, our clients are still our clients regardless. This always calls for a cool head and even temper and learning how to be adaptable.</p>

<p>As far as charging for extra time, I usually charge for the event rather than by the hour and adapt my prices according to the various "stages" that I will be expected to cover. The main thing really is to have good communications and have it all down clear and in writing. I find this approach tends to relieve a lot of the stress from both sides and I often get a really good plate of food into the bargain while waiting for the client to finally toss that damn bouquet...</p>

<p>The last thing the B&G need is some photohead bugging them for more cash while they are celebrating their happy day. Happy, unstressed clients mean more referrals and return business, IMHO.</p>

<p>These two questions should have been found out and dealt with way before the ceremony took place. Firstly, why didn't you speak to the Minister himself before the wedding day and find out? This then could have been taken care by either by the B&G explaining to him that they would really like images to be taken and negotiate a happy medium. Secondly, your time line should be explicitly discussed with the clients along with timings of the day of what’s going to happen and when and you both should have a copy. Of course things run late. I personally stay on if this happens, without charge.... that’s life. I wouldn’t want to be discussing pay for extra time or pay full stop on a wedding day with any client, unless it is them that starts the conversation regarding something extra they want. I don't want to be rude and I don't mean this to be disrespectful but it just screams unorganised. I don’t want ANY surprises that would cause me to freeze on a wedding day. </p>

 

<p>I have been to a few weddings where photography was prohibited - by the congregation. I recently shot a wedding where the congregation was told no flash, but I was given free reign to shoot at my pleasure.<br>

Checking before hand with the officiant or coordinator will prevent situations like this....he may have only meant no photography for those in the pews.<br>

As to staying, it's my feeling that giving the b&g something extra will go a long way with referrals. I typically give the b&g something "extra" (I typically work something in to make it look like I am giving them a deal) so they will be happier with my work. Let's face it, people want the most bang for their buck. Giving people "freebies" make them feel like they are being treated special, and will be a lot more likely to refer.</p>

<p>When I say I talk to the minister beforehand, I mean I make a focused effort to find and speak to him or her. If he isn't around, I ask until I find him. As for a form for the officiant/church rep to fill out is all well and good, David S. is right--sometimes things change, and sometimes the officiant isn't in his 'home' church, and his rules may differ from the church he is officiating in.</p>

<p>Lanthus- very true. I smiled and agreed to stay- I'm after referrals (I'll admit, on the inside I was super irritated. They did not feed their vendors and I was afraid to step out for a moment becausethe timeline I was given had events happening in rapid succession).</p>

<p> Thanks everyone for the feedback.</p>

 

<p><em>"Why wouldn't you want to have 1-1/2 to two weeks to know there's a potential problem and work it out well in advance, rather than running in last minute and negotiating your case five minutes before? I've been on both sides hundred of times, and I know which I prefer." -Dave W</em><br /><em></em><br />Because it's not necessary, it's also an unnecessary burden on the B/G to worry over the form and things can change at the last minute. A pro is (or should be) prepared for either situation and is also able to stay flexible and adapt to any last minute changes. I've been on the photography side more than 500 times and I also know which I prefer. BTW, church rules and the officiant's guidelines are not "negotiable". I do pledge to be discrete in my use of flash/movement during the ceremony however and present myself in a manner that supports a professional decorum.</p>

<p>A1. I always speak with the Minister (the head person – not the 2OIC) before the event; I don't trust second hand information.<br>

A2. I charge by the event, not by the hour, but with an agreed end time, but I am flexible - an hour is the limit of my flexibility unless extenuating circumstances, which in your case there seems there was not.<br>

WW</p>

 

<p>That is why, whenever I have to shoot an event, I ALWAYS communicate with the organisers and the venue managers (for weddings, see venue manager AND officiant) directly AT LEAST a week before the event. That way I have ample time to both communicate with my client(s) AND find a solution for the problem - if one exists. In that respect I have found that clearly and politely communicating with the officiant, more often than not, solves all my problems.</p>

<p>As for the extra time, there have been VERY FEW weddings that have NOT run longer than expected. That is why, whenever I shoot weddings, I always charge for the event assuming a full evening (Greek weddings are almost always evening and night weddings) and not a certain amount of hours. Events are another game altogether. I grant them 30 mins more than initially budgeted for and that's it. More than that is charged accordingly (and THAT is stipulated for in the contract).</p>

<p>1) - as pointed out be everyone before me - don't rely on the couple or MOB - Call the church as soon as you book the wedding - chances are they have already set the officiant - since most churches now require a counselling session with them.</p>

<p>2) Time lines at weddings are guides at best. Be flexible - to a point. Get the shots you're paid to get. Don't schedule anything after the wedding - that way when it runs long - you don't miss anything or have to "rush" away from the wedding. I typically will not book anything after a ceremony - not even a family dinner or event. The one time that I did book something after (a family dinner) - was a disaster - the wedding ran late, photos ran late, people that were supposed to be in photos dissappeared, wedding coordinator got mad at groom, reception didn't get started until an hour and a half late, groom insisted that I hadn't shot for the # of hours....you get the picture - it was just a bad wedding... but those will happen occassionaly.</p>

<p>As for the 3rd point - Couple didn't want to leave the rings - Yeah? I can guarantee you that the majority of couples on their wedding day - won't let the rings out of their or the best man's sight. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

<p>Sorry David Schilling, I gather you don't care for the form for the Officiant. I do, I want everything set in writing first, even if it might change. So, we're all a little different how we operate. As I said, I have done many weddings with the form and planner, and many more without, and I much prefer the with. Cheers for now as always 8-)</p>

<p>A once saw WW3 start because of a *SUBSTITUTE*clergy said:</p>

<p>"This is a holy event-no photos."</p>

<p>It was a 2 denominational wedding; B&G two different cultures; ie two langauages too.</p>

<p>Both churches wanted it to be held at their own church.</p>

<p>I went to rehearsals at both places of worship and the photographer met with both churches leaders. It was OK to shoot images.</p>

<p>Then to stop the bickering; the B&G chose a neutral 3rd church; of neither denomination; there was a 3rd hearsal there too.</p>

<p> All was well until the ceremony when the one denomination substituted a different clergy member; who wanted to inject "This is a holy event-no photos" after his counterpart had already agreed it was OK.</p>

<p>This guy did not show up at the THREE rehearsals !</p>

<p> ***Thus you probably need it in writing; so the if substitute arrives he just does not go half cocked trying to change the rules on the fly; ie pushing his weight around and creating a ruckus.</p>

<p>This total jerk (I am being very kind) never showed up at 3 rehearsals; saw none of the planning and was dictating that plants be moved.<br /> Asking the groomsman (one of them me) to move plants from the altar to the entrance; to do some religious stuff I have never done before with no rehearsal; that I do not know how to do.</p>

<p>Yet another groomsman flatly told him no; ie against his religion.<br /> Heck I would have done it; but with a darn rehearsal; not some thing in front of hundreds; with second notice.</p>

<p>. I knew the photographer; he stood his ground on the image taking and the substitute chap was enraged.</p>

<p>It set a bad tone for the wedding. A fellow who was not at 3 dry runs shows up and starts to dictate to do stuff that was not planned; to inject images cannot be shot; ie very weird.</p>

<p>I am not sure even if if was in writing that the substitute chap would have not been such a jerk/bullhead.</p>

<p> <strong>The whole purpose of "being prepared" meeting(s) with the church members is to prevent such bad surprises; to know who,what, when, where one can shoot images.</strong></p>

<p>ie to reduce the prima donna designated pitch hitter from another planet arriving at the last minute; to dictate the bases are no longer 90 feet; that there are 2 strikes and you are out; ie game changing stuff to fit his dominate ego.****Get it in writing if one has a weird brew of folks one is dealing with.</p>

<p>Dave, if you're having success with a form then that's great by me. My point is that forms will not make any difference on the actual "day of". Time lines will change, officiants can change and even when it comes to matters of contract, do you really want to pull out a contract during the ceremony or at some other point in the day.</p>

<p>It's a good idea to set expectations with the B/G prior to the event and managing expectations of clients & guests is another part of the job. However, newcomers can easily be lead into a false sense of security by using forms and relying on proposed time frames and guidelines and then can easily be frustrated by the all too common last minute changes that experienced pros can take in stride. Every day I see posts from new shooters complaining that the wedding didn't go the way they planned....the bride was late (so what else is new?), the officiant wouldn't let me use flash, catering staff was standing in the frame during a toast, I only had 15 minutes at the altar to do formals, the videoguy was a PIA, the MOG was a PIA, the groom was a PIA, etc...., etc... A seasoned pro is able to adapt while many newcomers despite their "passion" for photography can become flustered and rushed. Getting something in writting does not prepare you to adapt and rise to the challenges of the day.</p>

<p>David S;</p>

<p>The unruley chap in my story could have been asked if he wants to go against the written note from his own church; or create a sin by going against his churches wishes; that the other guy agreed to.</p>

<p>Without any written down rules; the substitute chap can just ignore 3 rehearsals; and change anything he wants to. It really depends if one wants to stand one's ground and deliver a product that one planned and got approved by 2 churches; or be a wimp/whuss and say ok no pictures by a dolt and get sued by the B&G; MOB for zero images; ie a real mess.</p>

<p>To prevent being steamrollered; having something in writing means one has 200 folks in the ceremony; against one chap who doesnt not want to follow what his church agreed to. It confronts his evil.</p>

<p>If you let some guy change the rules at the last minute; one faces a possible lawsuit; you agreed to shoot the ceremony; the church members said yes in 3 rehearsals; then this bozo who skipped the 3 rehearsals says no.</p>

<p>When somebody says no images in a courtroom; sports event; wedding; having something in writing has a great worth than just dialog. It also creates tension in the bully; for he is the rude chap who a the last minute changed the rules; and wants to go against his own church's wishes. Having so paperwork to say it is ok has a legal bearing more than dialog.</p>

<p>Having some paperwork if one suspects there might be trouble cannot hurt; it is a sign of a pro and maturity to be prepared and not assume stuff.</p>

<p>Thus if Mr Smith the clergy says yes for flash; and you are there testing during the rehearsal; if Mr Smith is sick and the substitute chap is a jerk; writing can help; or booing the substitute chap that happened in my wedding story.</p>

<p>There is no way to adapt to zero images in the church; this is unacceptable in the churche(s) agreed; and that is what the B&G are paying you to do.<br>

<br /> You want as many as these loose cannons to be exposed and known.</p>

<p>The purpose of having some paperwork; is like a spare camera; suit or tire; ie backup.</p>