B&H, Adorama no shutter counts

<p>Side note from the who-shot-john about how relevant shutter count is:</p>

<p>All the major used re-sellers give you at least a 30-day return policy with no questions asked. If you get the camera and find the shutter cycles are too high for your peace of mind, it's no hassle to just send it back. All you're out is shipping back.</p>

<p>This thread is interesting.</p>

<p>http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=617565</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Personally, I have absolutely no use for a company that rather than respect their customer base by doing whatever it can to instill faith and loyalty in their customers and their brand by being upfront and open about every aspect of their products, it would rather play “gotcha games” by devising ways to sneak through the back door and into consumers’ pockets. Most of the other camera manufacturers have chosen NOT to keep purchasers in the dark by hiding that information. Why hasn’t Canon also made it available WITHOUT COST? Can you say “planned obsolesence”?</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>How will Canon manage without you?</p>

<p>Canon has decided to obscure the shutter count information, yet they still sell cameras in their hundreds of thousands. I'm going to take a wild stab at suggesting that they're more successful in what they do than you are in whatever you do.</p>

<p>So - for the vast majority of us - they're getting it more right than wrong.</p>

<p>I fail to see the connection between hidden shutter counts and planned obsolescence either - cameras with available shutter counts are just as obsolete just as quickly as Canon bodies.</p>

<p>Oh - and this:</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Thus IMO, consumers have the absolute right to know that information; otherwise, it could easily be construed as at least bordering on fraud.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Funniest thing I've read so far this year. You, as a consumer, have absolutely no "right" to know this information (how would you even get the shutter count for a <em>film</em> SLR? The existence of this information on a DLSR does not automatically mean you have a right to it, just like a lot of other "maker note" information in the Exif), and the idea that concealing it is somehow tantamount to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud">fraud</a> is an utterly preposterous proposition.</p>

<p><strong>Shutter count information tells you <em>nothing</em> of worth about a camera: back in the day I had shutters go on two 30Ds within about a month of each other: one at c. 3,000 actuations, and one within 100 actuations (I'd owned it from brand new for less than a week, bought because I didn't like being without a camera while the other one was being repaired!)</strong></p>

<p><strong><em> The 30D is a camera with a 100,000 actuation MTBF.</em></strong></p>

<p>Alan;</p>

<p>RE: "2) All else being equal, the shutter in a camera that has had few actuations is more likely to last longer (relative to the time of purchase of the used camera) than one that has had a lot of actuations. Will it always be the true for an individual camera? No, but it is very likely to be statistically true."</p>

<p> It is my experience that real life is the opposite of this; thus items that see usage last longer.</p>

<p>It is not an opposition to shutter count; more like expressing concern that folks dwell on a data that means little; and often is missleading to lay folks. it would be a great parameter to sucker folks with; since the public often dwells on parameters that mean little.</p>

<p>(1) A Nikkormat Ftn I bought NEW in 1976 was a total disaster. It was bought as spare for backup. Its mean time before failure for me was a few rolls. Its entire life was spent to and from Nikon Garden City; it was there 3 times. After each fine repair it died in usage. it finally got stolen; good riddance.</p>

<p>(2) A Nikkormat Ft I got used in 1965 for 105 bucks has never failed; never had a cla yet. Camera (1) was bought for 201 bucks new as a backup for (2).</p>

<p>(3) A Nikon F I bought used in 1962 has never failed; never had a cla yet</p>

<p> I repair of customers cameras; it is ones that that see little usage that have the most issues. Items with more usage often never fail due to wearout; they break due to being dropped. Folks who use them little leave the batterys in they leak and the around the insides which ruins the insides. The shutters with the least usage have the most lubrication issues; or lube migration issues.</p>

<p>*EVERY* other repair person wants to add foam or due a CLA on (3); but the camera has a silk damper pad that still works</p>

<p>(A) In my wide format printers the one with 1,030,000 square feet still has the same drum;</p>

<p>(B) a sister model that is on year older has just 640k square feet AND is on its 3rd drum; 2nd embeded controller . It was under a service contract too.</p>

<p>Knowing the shutter clicks is piece of data.</p>

<p>Most cameras never die due to shutter failure; they die by dropping them.</p>

<p>A unit several years old with little usage tends to have more issues with electronics and lubes; these have more issues than ones that see normal exercise.</p>

<p>A unit that is used regularly has a user who does not leave dead batteries that leak.</p>

<p>A unit that is used regularly almost never has any old time mechanical self timer issues; its the cameras that are used the least that get hung up.</p>

<p>With cameras that have built in flashes; regular usage means the flash cap is in great shape. Little used cameras have worst leakage; their flashes may never charge up fully.</p>

<p>****Look at Photo.net's folks actual camera accidents; one has on rare times folks with a thread about a modern dlsr's shutter that failed in normal usage ; and gobs of ones where folks dropped the camera & lens; or dunked the camera & lens in water. One has 100 times the accidents with dunking and dropping; versus an actual shutter wearout.</p>

<p>Thus If Gomer Pyle gets his Canon Mark VII wet and finally it works again after 3 months of drying; he might want a Canon Mark X . If it is used as a trade in at Adorama or B&H the trade in guy might say it only has 3500 clicks in an advert; but have no clue that the electrical traces inside have a growing cancer due to Gomers salt spray on a Tampa vacation.</p>

<p>Knowing clicks is like knowing cell phone minutes on a used phone; it contains no info about water; shock; bumps that kill off about all old cellphones.</p>

<p>Dwelling on parameters that matter very little is common with consumers. It just adds confusion faster than actual meaning. Thus the poor soul who buys Adoramas used Canon Mark VII and has it die in one month will be ticked; their brain has it that "3500 clicks HAS to be like it is about brand new". </p>

<p>Since most all cameras die due to being dropped or dunked; knowing the shutter click is more like a "let us please lay crowd" gambit. A far better parameter/model would to have a blind man feel camera A and B to find out which has more bumps and dents.</p>

<p>In disc drives I have here; the ones that are used more each year last longer. The old Photoshop dream machine from 1994 has its original hard drive; it is on all the time and being used every day now printing UPS labels. Units that see intermittant useage have the most crashes and failures.</p>

<p>In servers the boxes that are on all the time have no capacitor issues; the ones used little now are used more to get MORE usage to increase the MTBF.</p>

<p>Actual shutter failures are rare ; most cameras die due to lack of usage than regular usage</p>

<p>Here It is sort of fun to see how long stuff will work. The first washer was bought when Truman was President; the second when Ford was president</p>

<p>A</p>

<p>It is far more common for the older camera to die due to lack of usage; it gets put up as spare; the batteries leak; the capacitors loose their "forming" ; an internal super cap or lithium battery drops its voltage and the settings get lost.</p>

<p>Photo.net has weekly threads about folks dropping and dunking their cameras; and about zero on shutter failures</p>

<p>The whole dropping, dunking nukes the shutter issue; it is 100 to 1000 times more likely than shutter wearout.</p>

<p>A far bigger issue is how long that Canon shutter will be around in years as a replacement; in the rare case it does break.</p>

<p>A used item has risk; it will always be like that.<br>

<br /> (1) A camera body with 3500 clicks might be 1 year old and was dropped in the water at Daytona and it took 3 months to turn on. It is a ticking cancer; it has its traces with corrosion and was used as a trade in after "it worked".<br>

<br /> (2) Another camera body sat on a copy stand and has 70,000 clicks. Lay folks on this board will shun it.<br /> When you buy camera (1) and it dies in 1 month; a repair chap might open it up and say to total it; massive corrosion on all traces; IC's a huge mess ie cancer.<br>

<br /> The issue is lay folks will equate that less clicks is wildly better; thus pay more for this touchly feely weak parameter.<br>

<br /> Both cameras (1) and (2) might look the same as to actual usage; but camera (1)might die in 1 month; and camera (2) in 10 to 30 years.<br>

<br /> Since dunking and hard shocks often cannot be seen in a used camera; one really does not know. Then the parameter that has little bearing; ie clicks becomes this parameter that drives pricing.</p>

<p>Pricing is almost never rational in consumer items</p>

<p>I could worry about "few actuations is more likely to last longer than one that has had a lot of actuations."<br /> with my washing machine or Nikon F or my grandfathers windup Kodak darkroom timer.<br>

<br /> The timer is from the 1920's at least. Do I sell the one from Rochester because it has a lot of usage?<br /> The Nikon F was bought use in 1962; it has never had a CLA yet.<br>

<br /> The first washer was bought in 1947; the second in 1976. I have two spare pumps and a spare motor and timer so I am not stressed.</p>

<p>****What if folks chose their mates by lack of actuations?<br>

You want the person who is glued and never moves; since they last longer than ones who walk a block or two?</p>

<p>Some empirical information on shutter lifetimes of various cameras.</p>

<p>http://www.olegkikin.com/shutterlife/</p>

 

<p>By the way,</p>

<p>I have a canon T2 with a frozen shutter... failed all by itself with no provocation. I once had an Exakta whose shutter failed, although the camera received fairly regular use. I presently have a Zorki 4k with a bad shutter. I have an Olympus film SLR that my mother in law gave me that has a bad shutter. I have a Topcon unirex with a bad shutter.</p>

<p>I admit that none of these would be considered real high end cameras (with the possible, but arguable exception of the Exakta VX iia), but in my experience shutter failure is not all that rare.</p>

<p>By the way, none of these cameras were dropped or dunked or otherwise abused to the best of my knowledge.</p>

<p>Another site that discusses number of shutter actuations.</p>

<p>http://www.flickr.com/groups/400d/discuss/72157603359184822/</p>

 

<p>And more.</p>

<p>http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=36072463</p>

 

<p>Why haven't the moderators locked this thread? It's way over due for their intervention.</p>

<p>Donald,</p>

<p>Instead of locking the thread, if this thread is bothering you then why don't you just not read the thread and let those who are interested participate without being bothered by your petty request?</p>

<p> If your model of "more excercise means you die quicker" differs with my experience; you might want to quash the observation of others; it does not fit you model.</p>

<p>It actual products the life is not some orderly thing; one has wild variations in lifetimes. It is like how long somebody lives</p>

<p>Often when the "shutter fails" it is not the shutter assembly at all; it is that the user who got the wind knob buggered up; they forced something. It is like saying a cars engine is bad; when it is just the starter motor; or the carb.</p>

<p>Saying it is "the shutter" is what most folks say why a camera died; sort of like saying somebodys heart stopped; when the real reason is unknown.</p>

<p>There are boxcars worth of 1950's, 1960's, 1970's cameras where folks say the shutter is dead; when the shutter inside is just fine; the wind area got abused; something got forced; the batteries leaked.</p>

<p>A common Retina IIIc is about like this in 99 percent; the shutter works fine but the cocking arm got abused. The same camera with a carefull user will last a lifetime; and an abuser will tear one up by winding super fast in a few rolls.</p>

<p>In Zorki many shutters "fail" by the user getting the spring inside goofed up by getting the change shutter speed and wind sequence wrong. This failure is fixed by pulling of the top cover and moving the spring back in place. Its failure has to do with the number of goobers who used the camera not shutter clicks.</p>

<p>There are some fixed lens old 1960's leaf shutter cameras were every one seems to be broken; and folks say it is the shutter; when it is the wind and linkage that was poor; the actual shutter inside is never really broken. Thus practically it is the shutter in a lay sense; but the life is really dependent on how much abuse it saw in super fast winding. The shutter assembly is still in great shape; it is just buried inside with no connection anymore to the end user.</p>

<p>In about many cases were the public says the shutter is dead the actual shutter still is fine; it is the linkage; wind; selftimer on older stuff. It is like if folks junked a car "because the engine failed" when the starter is just broken.</p>

<p>In a dumb P&S camera; the public says the shutter is broken if the clam door gets torn off; the software halts the camera from working. A dumb Nikon L6 I have is like this; I took off the nosecone's face and now it works.</p>

<p>In old Kodaks folks often say the shutter is bad; when the camera only needs a roll of film.</p>

<p>The total shutter count is just one piece of data; it weakly corresponds to used life; since the ownership is unknown. If the camera body was a rental unit; or one used at a school; it has often seen a hard live.</p>

<p>Old leaf shutter cameras like the Topcon Unirex often just died due to lack of useage. Cameras these were a not liked even decades ago. After the first user grew tired of the camera; it got mothballed and the shutter got stickly; all due to lack of usage. The same camera if used each month can have 100 times the clicks and still work fine in 2010; it had some exercise and thus did not die due to lack of usage. Many of these cameras were not even worth fixing even 30 years ago; from a cost standpoint. Folks who fix stuff like this do it for love; its the camera they first had etc.</p>

<p>In actual test results of units I have had in the field in engineering; when actual test data has the wrong slope; folks with rigid midsets often want to quash the data; for it does not fit their rigid model. This is actually quite common .</p>

<p>If total shutter clicks is ones concern then buy a camera were the shutter replacement cost is known; thus can be planned for. If it is a typical 200 buck or less P&S digital; they basic repair might be 80 to 120 bucks for about anything; thus it is cheaper to buy a 2nd hand one than fix the old one.</p>

<p>So Dennis; folks differ on photo.net all the time about photo issues. One person might say his flatbed is s rock solid 6400 real pixel per inch image; an others of us might find the same model to be a solid 1500 to 1800 dpi in "dpi setting" since our flatbed is not perfect.</p>

<p>Alan believes that camera body life is strongly correlated to total clicks; I do not.</p>

<p>Do you have an interest at some camera store or repair place such that this subject bothers you; that at you want the subject quashed?</p>

<p>All through out photography's history there have been shutters; as exposures grew shorter than using a hat or lenscap.</p>

<p>One can go back 100 years ago and ask it if is good to use a shutter/piano/car once a month; or store the unit away for tens years to keep the clicks/key hits/miles low.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Man, 61 replies, PN and Adorama should be writing me a check for all the page views I've generated by starting this juggernaut.</p>

<p>Kelley,</p>

<p>You said "Alan believes that camera body life is strongly correlated to total clicks". Actually that is not quite what I said. I invite you to go back and read what I actually said, and then feel free to post a correction to your post.</p>

<p>Now let me comment on one thing you said which was "In actual test results of units I have had in the field in engineering; when actual test data has the wrong slope; folks with rigid midsets often want to quash the data; for it does not fit their rigid model. This is actually quite common ." You seem to be implying that my point of view is contrary to the data. I am a little confused about your point for several reasons. To start with, exactly data are you referring to, and how am I contradicting the data? I don't actually recall that you have posted or linked to ANY data. The closest you come is anecdotal accounts based on your own experience as a repairman.</p>

<p>In fact, I believe that I am the only one that linked to any data on shutter life, and I don't think there is anything I said that contradicts the data in any way. Here is another link to some data on shutter lifetime. I don't think there is anything that would support your contention that shutter usage has little correlation with shutter failure, or that there is any kind of "negative slope" involved.</p>

<p>As I said, shutter actuation count is akin to the odometer on a vehicle. At 100,000 to 150,000 miles, a motor vehicle is most likely to start experiencing major (costly) mechanical issues. Consumers shopping for a used vehicle have the right under state and federal law to know before they purchase a given vehicle how close it is to that point. Thus it’s illegal to screw with odometers. Most DSLRs shutters are touted by most manufacturers to be expected to last up to around 100,000 actuations before they start to experience major (costly) issues. Now, what other purpose could shutter actuation count possibly have?</p>

<p>Further, if a dealer lists what appears in every way to be a brand spanking new camera and all that originally came with it but you don’t ask if it is, they don’t volunteer the information, and you buy it only to find out the truth later, that dealer has violated state and federal consumer protection laws. Shutter actuation count freely obtainable by consumers would certainly prevent that from happening – customer doesn’t get screwed, dealer doesn’t get busted.</p>

<p>Canon doesn’t necessarily have to fear running afoul of consumer protection laws in that respect since they aren’t in the business of <strong>selling</strong> used cameras. They (and Nikon in some models, so it seems) have nonetheless devised a way to make money off of them.</p>

<p><a href="../canon-eos-digital-camera-forum/00T95d?start=0">http://www.photo.net/canon-eos-digital-camera-forum/00T95d?start=0</a></p>

<p>Search internet, there is free program, it’s reading exiff and give you shutter count, all you need just one pick file from camera.<br>

Stores do not like to give that info, hi shutter count the same as hi mileage on the car, resulting price drop. </p>

<p>Alan;<br>

In actual field test data on hard disc drives; were the SMART data was collected for total hours on and start stop cycles; I have collected data that had the opposite slope than "folks want to see". Thus when the SMART hooks got added to earlier disc drives and was collected in field service work; I have seen data were the units that were used the least died quicker. This totally flies in the opposite of folks simple minded models want to see. </p>

<p>In actual engineering mechanisms; one can have one in the lab going a million cycles; and have the same mechanism get busted in a month due to abuse the field. Then us engineers get to do the CSI to find the root cause; and often it is not something related to cycles; the darn unit got hit so hard that things jumped of their pivots; etc.</p>

<p>In the discs drive case units with the least number of cycles; and in humid areas; and with a poor batch of disc overcoating would stick; ie the recording heads get stuck to the disc platter. Then when it is started the suspension gets tweaked; and now the head flys wrong; thus increasing the chance of a head crash. An analogy is letting a car set up for months or years; the chance of a dry bearing or galling goes up radically.</p>

<p><br /><br /><br /><br /><br>

****Alan; the point I am trying to make is you and most other folks here have a stronger belief that shutter clicks are a great indicator of used up life than I do.</p>

<p>All of us are different; I trend to look at the condition of stuff I buy; and use the odometer/clicks as a weak indicator of used life; or one that less can be worse too.</p>

<p><br /><br /><br /><br /><br>

With all the hacking that is so easy; I fear many folks are fit to be fried in a used camera purchase. About anything can be hacked.</p>

<p><br /><br /><br /><br /> One has a weak parameter that folks want and embrace; and it will be hacked. It sounds like a perfect way to harvest folks. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br>

Since so many folks here seem to deeply worship clicks as gospel; just reduce the number of clicks to sell an old clunker.? ?<br>

<br /><br /><br /><br /><br>

It is a wide open new thing;and who knows if the clicks reset due to a power glich? It does sometimes on SMART HDA data; I have a unit that reads liks it has been on so many hours it had to be from the civil war. Then another unit that has been on mostly since 1994 reads like it has just a few years usage.</p>

<p>In many cameras; here I have seen were the least used camera bodies have more issues; ie the problems are worse when they see little usage. This is really nothing new; it happens in all sorts of consumer items. A cars AC compressor if not used every few months will develop a leak in the rotating seal. If you take somebody who only uses the AC 2 months a year; and it doesnt run with the defrost; they can go through a compressor every 2 to 3 years. If one uses the thing more; the issue goes away.</p>

<p><br /><br /><br /><br /><br>

Look at an gas outboard motor or weedeater or chain saw; if you use them every month or two; one never has any issues with bad gasoline; clogged up carb; ethnol gas eating up the aluminum fuel bowl.</p>

<p>Many inkjet printers are like this; if used on a regular basis; one gets few issues with clogging. Folks who are want reduce the number of hours usage often skip some exercise each week; thus they have more problems.</p>

<p> In big ink printers like I have here; the lack of useage is the root cause of most all clogs and calibation issues.</p>

<p>Folks here are free to buy their used items with the least usage; since "clicks" is a piece of data that is mentioned today with some sales.</p>

<p>The click meter in a camera allows a repair shop to log what was done by clicks fired. They do the same thing with the meter counts on my 14 copy machines. Look at drums on a copy machine ; one of mine has 1 million square feet and still is in great shape. One on the customer side of he counter got ruined because they added their own offbrand transparency material; ie died after the drum was just replaced due to nicks from somebodys ring. So the machine that is not a handled by the lay public can go a million;and dinky 8.5x11 copier sees total abuse; thus one throws in in the dumpster.</p>

<p><br /><br /><br /><br /><br>

It is very interesting how folks rally around shutter clicks as being so important. In cars, copy machines and big printers; you WANT to see a certain amount of usage per year; if too low you wonder about fraud or low usage issues.</p>

<p><br /><br /><br /><br /><br>

Most consumer items need some usage to attain a long life. In actual data most items have the longest life when not mothballed or glued to collectors shelves.</p>

<p><br /><br /><br /><br /><br>

Many pros want and ask a camera store to check out their new camera they are buying; thus a new camera has to have some clicks on it. They want the unit to work.</p>

<p>As clicks becomes more of an obsession to photographers; you find fellow believers asking if the click count seems real on used camera for sale; or complaining that their used camera died in 2 months. You are free to worship and seek out the lowest click cameras.</p>

<p>I am not against used places listing clicks; it is sort of fun to read how folks embrace such a weak/ hokey piece of info. Most all cameras die due being dropped or dunked; thus folks worry about the less than 1 percent issue; and do not even plan on a possible shutter replacement's cost.</p>

<p>Many consumer items are only supported for 7 years.</p>

<p>If you buy a used Acme camera and it is 6 years old with 3k clicks; if you do not drop it or dunk it for 6 years; what if the shutter does break in 2016?<br>

Will one be able to buy a shutter?<br>

Will anybody care to fix it?<br>

The long term trend is you chuck stuff.</p>

<p>In P&S digitals; about all die due to being dropped; there is not a well known shutter on most; thus folks cannot dwell on the silly parameter.</p>

<p>The point of possible fraud with clicks; or it not being so important has ruffled many believers.</p>

<p>Isn't there like a 5,000 word limit on posts?</p>

<p>Kelley,</p>

<p>For heaven's sake, please get back on your meds.</p>

<p>Oh, and by the way, 1) We're talking cameras here, not hard disks. 2) Nobody here is "worshiping" shutter clicks. the point was made by several people several times that shutter clicks are one (and only one) indicator of overall usage. No one here has made any claim that they were the whole story. 3) You claim you evaluate overall condition. OK, how do you yourself evaluate shutter condition, regardless of whether the camera is overused or underused, and how do you evaluate overall condition? I'm guessing, just based on your previous posts, that you are mainly looking for dents and water marks.</p>

<p>Kelley you're ignoring the fact that when you buy a used body you have one and only one thing to go on currently, the grade from the shop. That's it. All the theoreticals you're belaboring have no bearing. Seems like argument for the sake or argument.</p>

<p>Of course having more info in the form of a shutter count - as long as you know that the count is accurate and reflects cumulative totals for the life of the body with regards to possible shutter replacements - can only be a useful additional piece of information to factor in to an informed decision. It's a basic logical proposition.</p>

<p>Alan;</p>

<p>As I mentioned earlier; IF one can handle the camera in ones bare hands; dents and dings can matter. A consumer item like a digital camera body or cell phone; surveying level that has dents points to being bumped and dropped.</p>

<p>Brett;</p>

<p>some of us buy used cameras from customers; at swap meets; from actual brick and mortar stores. If an Ebay camera looks like it has been through a garbage disposal; it is not rocket science that it probably has had a rougher life. If somebody has crummy abscuring ebay images; it maybe pointing to hiding something.</p>

<p>Alan;</p>

<p>Here I have bought an sold several thousand cameras; thus I can understand you might need your meds to grasp that shutter clicks is a weak variable; or one with reversely sloped. Maybe being an insulting person is your character? You really do not like what I mention that clicks is a hokey parameter; thus have to ruin a civil thread by childish attacks. Here I have found that cameras that have the least amount of usage have the biggest amount of repairs. Maybe that is your goal; you want a thread closed because you think clicks is a great parameter and I think it is a hokey one; ie cannot handle actual field experience that is the exact opposite.</p>

<p>If you buy a used camera and has 30K clicks; and it has poor images; I am just willing to pay as much.</p>

<p>I have a shoebox full of dead DRebels; all dead due to dunking and dropping; and none have quote dead shutters. They are just now worth fixing; a most common thing in todays disposable market. The same goes with P&S digitals; the shutter about never fails ; folks just abuse them.</p>

<p>All a seller has to do is hack into the software and roll back the clicks and then the camera is worth more to the bulk of the planet who believes clicks are a great thing.</p>

<p>But Kelley, you are not answering the question(s). How do you evaluate usage, and in particular if you are of the opinion that it is the less-used cameras that fail more frequently then how do you know which cameras have been less used? Furthermore, how do you evaluate general condition. Furthermore, would you have us believe that you do not look at the shutter count on any cameras that make that information available? Furthermore, where is your data on the topic? You have given your anecdotes. I have also given anecdotes, but the crucial difference between you and me is that I have linked to multiple sites with data whereas you have shown no data nor have you linked to any sites containing data, despite your comments about the importance of data.</p>

<p>As to being insulting, I admit it. I made an insulting comment in response to your long and rambling tirade a few posts back. And don't forget this either: many of your comments were made in a tone to belittle the comments of others, so you really can't complain when the tables are turned a bit.</p>

<p>One last thing, just out of curiosity, if you had the choice of three cameras, one of which you knew had 100 shutter actuations, one of which had 10,000 shutter actuations, and one of which had 1,000,000 shutter actuations, and if they were the same price and by all appearances were in equal condition, which would you choose?</p>

<p>As to hacking into a camera to change the shutter count, I doubt if there is one in a hundred sellers who would be capable of doing that, and of those who are capable, the majority are probably honest and would not do it, so the risk is just not worth worrying about.</p>

<p>Kelley, one more thing. With regard to closing the thread, you must be confusing me with someone else. In fact, I specifically commented AGAINST closing the thread.</p>

<p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=2238958">@Nick Doronin</a></p>

 

<p>As I noted above, there is <strong>no</strong> programme available to the consumer to accurately give the shutter count for this unit.</p>

<p>At Adorama we <strong>always</strong> give the shutter count if requested provided we have the required software, and the prices we quote for our used gear take the shutter count - as just one factor - into acount, when we set the price.</p>

<p><strong>Helen Oster<br /> Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador</strong><br>

<a href="mailto:HelenO@adorama.com">HelenO@adorama.com</a></p>