Rangefinder questions

<p>Hello,</p>

<p>A while back, I bought a Nikon D90. Even further back, 10 years almost, I shot with a Pentax K-1000. Since then I have purchased a Nikon FM2n, FE2 and some glass, which I really enjoy. Unfortunately, my D90 sits on the shelf as shooting film brings me much more happiness - a sort of Zen approach if you will. This being said, my D90 is being sold to my brother who will put it to good use shooting various events. I consider myself to be a "street" shooter as I usually just walk around and take pictures of things that catch my eye. I always have my FM2n with me, and I appreciate the comfort of well crafted mechanical objects (quite soothing really)</p>

<p>After researching between an M system or a V (Hasselblad), I decided that a small RF camera would be ideal for my lifestyle and travels to come. I'm almost settled on the Leica M6 with a Summicron 50, and eventually Summicron 35. I'll be keeping my FM2n and 2 lens as my SLR setup (28mm, 50mm and 105mm).</p>

<p>I do have a few questions about rangefinders and in particularly, the Leica M6 which I'm now seriously considering. I apologize in advance as this is 101.</p>

<p>1. How can you tell what's in focus if the rangefinder square is larger than an area? For example, if you're trying to focus on an eye, but the eye is much smaller than the square itself? I know...101 stuff.</p>

<p>2. The Leica M6TTL; What is a fair market price? Seems to me they have gone up in price on fleabay? 1400-2000 seems to be their going price. Is there a film revival of which I was not informed?</p>

<p>3. Given my affinity for lens in the 28 to 50mm range, which mag should I be looking for? Am I looking at too much of a range here? I'd be happy with 35 to 50 if I'm being honest.</p>

<p>I think I'm a Leica man. I love quality optics (astronomy gear as well) and mechanical devices. However, I'm open to other M mount cameras, such as the Zeiss Ikon (again, hard to find used and going for a lot online...must be the revival again).</p>

<p>Well if you've read this far I thank you for your time, and any forthcoming advice.</p>

<p>Cheers from Canada!</p>

<p>Julien</p>

<p>1. When the eye is all in one piece, i.e. not split.<br>

2.Whatever you're willing to pay. I sold mine in great condition for a grand. Wouldn't pay more than that.<br>

3.mag?</p>

<p>1) It dosen't matter if what you are focusing on is smaller than the patch, so long as you can see it well enough to focus. An eye is easy to focus due to the contrast.</p>

<p>2) I havn't been watching prices lately, but a TTL should be about $1,200 - $1,500. A classic can be had from around $1,000.<br>

3) Do you mean viewfinder magnification? Standard 0.72 has 28mm frames, they're at the edge but useable. No problem if you're right eyed, but I find them a bit difficult to see being left eyed. If 28mm is your preferred focal length, a 0.5? would be better, but they cost a bit more and focus is less accurate.<br>

An M6 will be an excellent camera, I would choose one over an Ikon. If you can live without a meter, I think M2 and M3 are better cameras than an M6, and cost less too!</p>

<p>2. I sold my Ex Classic for ~$1100 and EX+TTL .58 for ~$1400 like 2-3 years ago.</p>

<p>3. If you like 28-50mm, my first choice would be .58 then .72 if you wear glasses. If you don't, then .72, .58. though you should try them out first regardless.</p>

<p>But you really need to figure out if you are a leica man. Just because you think you are doesn't mean you are. And buying a body and a lens just to find out isn't smart especially these days. Good luck!</p>

<p>I want the meter, that I know.</p>

<p>I meant magnification of the VF, yes. As far as focusing, I guess I don't fully understand. If I'm pointing at a face, lens at F2, and the focus square occupies the whole face - how do I know if the eye, and not the nose, is in focus? Or am I thinking too much?</p>

<p>Thanks,</p>

<p>J</p>

<p>If I don't like RF photography, I can always sell it. This being said, I love excellent lens and will have both SLR and RF setup.</p>

<p>J</p>

<p>#1 When not in focus, the RF patch will show two images that are displaced with respect to each other - when in focus, you will see only one image. In addition, the borders of the patch can be used like a split-focus indicator. Here is an example (scroll down a little) http://www.photozone.de/slr-vs-rangefinder</p>

<p>Not quite sure which camera you are looking for - the M6 or the M6TTL? The M6 only comes with .72 and .85 viewfinder magnification (the latter only quite late in the production cycle), the M6TTL is the first that offers .58, .72, and .85. You can always add a 1.25x magnifier to convert the .58 into a .72 and the .72 into a .85.</p>

<p>Personally, I see very little reason to go for the M6TTL and would rather spend the money on lenses - for 35mm the .72 finder works fine; 28mm is OK but if that will be your most often used focal length, then a .58 VF might be better (just add the 1.25 magnifier if you shoot with anything longer than 50mm)</p>

<p>Thanks,</p>

<p>I am use to manual everything as I shoot my FM2n all the time. I don't use flash, and don't "plan" my photos - I just always have a camera on me, and shoot on a whim. This is why the FM2n was a big step UP from the D90. I'd be happy with a 35mm and a 50mm lens. Any macro or telephoto will be on my Nikon SLR system. </p>

<p>My real interest in equipment (read; not photography) is glass. Leica glass is what I'm after here. I have a Zeiss ZF 50mm F1.4 for my Nikon - I love it. From what I read, Leica has even "better" glass. But I understand that better is too subjective, and it's more a question of how a lens renders. I love how Leica glass renders, and follow many Leica photographers.</p>

<p>As a side note, how often does the RF need adjusting? Is this a common problem?</p>

<p>Thanks,</p>

<p>J</p>

<p>Since you don't use flash I would suggest going with the plain M6. The names may be a bit confusing because the "TTL" in the TTL version works with the dedicated Leica flash, but both versions actually have TTL meters for non-flash metering.</p>

<p>From my research, an M6 with a 50mm Summicron (non ASPH) would be a good start. I am considering the possibility of a cheaper body, however. The Bessas seem ok, the Zeiss Ikon are in the same price range so not saving anything there, and the Minolta CLE is a bit of a strange one.</p>

<p>J</p>

<p>"how do I know if the eye, and not the nose, is in focus? Or am I thinking too much?"</p>

<p>I think you need to look through a rangefinder, it will make sense.</p>

<p>Bessas are good and well built, and you will save a substantial amount of money. They have a different range of magnifier magnifications too. The main drawback for me is the fuzzy edged rangefinder patch, it works, but I find the Leica patch easier to focus.</p>

<p>The rangefinder dosn't need regular adjustments, probably just if the camera is knocked, or as part of a normal CLA. Not something I've ever had a problem with, having owned four Leica bodies.</p>

<p>There is no Asph 50mm Summircon. You really can't go wrong with a 50mm Summicron, it's a stunning lens. The current version has been in production for about 25-30 years, so there a plenty of used examples around.<br>

This is the tabbed version of the 50mm Summicron, made in the eighties.<br>

<a title="Queen St, Brisbane by Geoff A Roberts, on Flickr" href=" src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4580356259_ecc789b6ed.jpg" alt="Queen St, Brisbane" width="500" height="325" /></a></p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>2. The Leica M6TTL; What is a fair market price? Seems to me they have gone up in price on fleabay? 1400-2000 seems to be their going price. Is there a film revival of which I was not informed?</p>

</blockquote>

<p><a href="00X94B">Leica is rumored to be discontinuing the manufacture of film cameras.</a> That may drive the price up of used Leica equipment and new, old stock.</p>

<p>Research Leica M4P and Rigid/DR Summicron 50/2. Start from there.</p>

<p>Thanks,</p>

<p>I'm hoping to find an M6 in Canada, as most of you U.S. fleabay posters won't ship to Canada! (shipping is always set to US only) Also, a lot of M6 - not even the TTL - are selling for 1500$ US, which seems to be a lot higher than what one reads in articles. For example, KR mentions that a used M6 can be found for just under 1000$. This is far off the mark it seems. I've also read other articles that claim such fantasy. </p>

<p>It appears that for a body only, one needs to spend 1500$US, which is just a little over what I would consider a bargain. This is what lead me to look into the Zeiss Ikon line, as they are suppose to be cheaper. Again, not the case. Most of them are going for 1200 to 1500 US $. For a few extra hundred dollars I get an M6.</p>

<p>As for the Summicron 50, they seem to be reasonably priced depending on the version. I'm OK with a used lens from the 80s, and don't require an ASPH.</p>

<p>J</p>

IMHO a Leica M is not a *small" rangefinder camera. See this - http://www.photo.net/classic-cameras-forum/00X9SK - for a discussion of small rangefinder cameras.

<p>Have a look here, for example:<br>

<a href="http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/23838">http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/23838</a></p>

<blockquote>

<p>I'm hoping to find an M6 in Canada. Also, a lot of M6 - not even the TTL - are selling for 1500$ US, which seems to be a lot higher than what one reads in articles. For example, KR mentions that a used M6 can be found for just under 1000$. This is far off the mark it seems. I've also read other articles that claim such fantasy.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I just did a completed auctions search of US eBay; recent final prices for M6 body only (no lens, no special edition) ranged from $949 to $1600, with 24 recent auctions ending between $1000 and $1400. Didn't check eBay Canada, but obviously finding one in the low-$1000 range isn't a "fantasy" (unless perhaps you limit the pool to Canada).<br /> <br />As Marek pointed out just above this, I would also say it's worth monitoring rangefinderforum.com classifieds; I don't know about shipping to Canada but that site attracts sellers from all over the world so it should offer viable hunting for you.<br>

Even KEH.com has three non-TTL's for (just) under $1300 right now (two of which are in EX condition), and they have an excellent return policy if you're not happy.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>As far as focusing, I guess I don't fully understand. If I'm pointing at a face, lens at F2, and the focus square occupies the whole face - how do I know if the eye, and not the nose, is in focus? Or am I thinking too much?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Maybe not enough thinking yet. If you think of more accuracy, the two pictures in that small square never coincident perfectly, maybe the eyes match but the noses don't. Also, this is very important that only the center point of the square is calibrated to be correct. That is why the square should not be too big and the tolerance is acceptable</p>

<p>That's a problem I have with a lot of auctions on EBay. A lot of people in the US refuse to ship to Canada. Funny thing is, they have no problem buying abroad. I guess it's too much effort for the extra letters in the address. </p>

<p>Their loss. I've seen auctions for many things go for far less than what I would have paid...but was denied because it was US Only. I just sit back and chuckle at their loss. </p>

Interesting that eBay allows such restriction. Always seems silly to me, especially if they won't ship to neighboring Canada.

Canadians would know better than the rest of us why.

<p>I see that KEH has some Leica M6 (non-TTL, which is all I need) for close to $1000 in "BGN" condition. It's hard to tell what a bargain condition means without seeing the actual item. Does anyone have experience with KEH and BGN items? If it's just cosmetic, I'm ok with that.</p>

<p>Also, do KEH CLA the gear before reselling?</p>

<p>J</p>

<p>@Dave Luttmann, you may want to blame your overly regulated government. Having sold to Canadian customers before, one has to realize the hoops <strong>us sellers have to jump through</strong> in order to finish a transaction for you folks.<br>

(Also true of many overseas countries)<br>

Several forms to fill out, and worst of all, <strong>mandatory</strong> lines to stand in at our nearest inefficient Post Office.</p>

<p>ANY of three major carriers only requires that the simple <strong>USA</strong> package be dropped off. (Or picked up) </p>

<p>Julien,</p>

<p>The question of the RF patch and eye versus the focus on the rest of the face is irrelevant with most focal length lenses (to 135mm) and probably with the ones you are thinking of (28 to 50). The subject in those cases (where the RF just covers the face) will be far enough away from the camera that whether the lens is focussed on the eye or the nose is mainly irrelevant as the DOF of the lens will take care of that (except perhaps if you want to use the f1.0 or f0.95 Noctiluxes).</p>

<p>I have sold to and bought from the US on many occasions. No great problems for myself or the seller. If there are any problems, it is certainly not with Canadian regulations, but with the possible inefficiency of the US Post office. There is, if it is like Canada Post, just one small and simple form that goes on the package. <strong>No big deal. </strong>You can indicate to the seller that you are less demanding on the ship out date (leaway of say 2 to 5 days) so he can combine the Post office visit with other business. Using UPS or Fedex or the like is easiest for him (they come to the door), but the advantage of USPS is that there are no customs brokerage payments for you. I have had no complaints from US sellers, including Cameraquest, about postal shipment problems at their end. I've sold a few unneeded items to Czechoslovakia and England, and that is more difficult and costly, but also quite manageable.</p>

<p>Don't look at the "buy it now" prices on the Bay as indicators of value, as they do not always represent what the item is worth and by checking stats on final sales you will see what the auctioned M6s actually went for and you will see many unsold buy it now items. Some sellers inflate prices greatly, including one or two offshore (Orient) dealers. Use Photo.Net or other sites for often better deals, or Kijijii or Craig's list for your city (Montréal, Toronto?).</p>

<p>Without criticising the Z-I camera which is very good, the M6 is a camera that has been refined over many years and is about the best available in its class (the highly expensive MP adds a few refinements that not everyone agrees is really worth it on a Q/P basis) . If you are patient, you should be able to pick up a near mint classic M6 body for $1000 and possibly get a good deal on lens and camera. The upward motion on the M6s and discontinued Leica items are the result more of continual price hikes by Leica of their current items than of a resurgence in Leica film photography.</p>

<p>Bonne chance!</p>

<p>Arthur,</p>

<p>Thanks for the reply. I have decided to really take my time here. I want an M6, and looking at other options always leaves me wanting the Leica. Since I already have 2 Nikon SLR cameras and a series of good primes, I am in no rush to buy "the next Leica". When I see a deal, or fair price, I'll buy it. I might even buy a 50 Summicron locally as there's one for sale for 600$.</p>

<p>As for shipping, I bought most of my Nikon gear from the US and the sellers were more than happy to ship to Canada. I think the power sellers are use to it and it's just part of business, whereas it might be a bit more intimidating for private sellers getting rid of one item.</p>

<p>I understand much better now about the RF patch, and it's what I thought was the case. Just wanted confirmation. I guess I didn't know the size of the famed RF and so wasn't too clear, but seeing a few diagrams it became evident of its use and function. </p>

<p>Interestingly, I also just held and looked through an M6! I was having coffee and a gentleman walked by with a Leica. He sat down and I asked him about it. He recently sold all his Canon digital gear and purchased an M6 with Summicron 50. He had no regrets. Also kind enough to let me hold it, and view through it. Unfortunately, now I MUST have one.</p>

<p>J</p>

<p>Julien,</p>

<p>It is a great instrument. I sold mine, a classic non-TTL flash M6, as well as a very nice Hexar RF for M lenses, when I wanted to go into the medium format RF field, but have since had second thoughts about not pursuing as well 35mm photography, and bought an M4-P and 50mm Elmar-M lens. The M6 is better than the M4-P to my mind for most photography, given the rapidity of use of an on-board TTL exposure meter. I am in the Quebec City-Montreal region and will contact you if I chance to hear of anything becoming available in this part of Canada. RF photography is really enjoyable, in a different way to the equally fulfilling SLR photography for other uses.</p>