B&G wants full copyright.

<p>I shot my 1st wedding a few weeks back friend of a friend. I stated up front over the phone. That I retain copyright and if they used my images anywhere then I must be credited. This was fine( of course it's verbal right?!) <br /> The B&G have now decided they don't like my release form which I have been using for 3 years and NOT ONE complaint or questioning. And I state clearly in my form I retain copyright.</p>

<p>This is what they are requesting be put into the contract.</p>

<ul>

<li>No assignment of copyright over the photographs to you,</li>

<li>Permission is granted to you for use of any or all of the photographs in your own portfolio, including display on website or other medium, for your own marketing purposes</li>

<li>Photographs to be displayed in a manner which prevents them from being copies or downloaded by third parties</li>

<li>If you wish to use any photograph(s) for any purpose other than for your own marketing materials, then you must explain to me/us how they will be used and obtain specific authorisation (which shall not constitute transfer of copyright to you or any other party).</li>

</ul>

<p>Bride thinks if it was my wedding or photographs of my children I'd want the above wording too.</p>

<p>I wish I could show you what's in my release form, but I am in the middle of moving house and don't have access to the computer on which it is stored. But it's just a standard model release form for the UK.</p>

<p>So question is do I hand over copyright? I feel like I shouldn't be. Never have done, and actually never intended to, but perhaps this the norm in wedding photography I don't know!</p>

 

<p>Not something I'd do but if you are in the UK, the laws concerning privacy are different than they are here in the US. In fact, a lack of a model release in the UK gives you far greater leeway in using the images than having a model release.</p>

<p>But, as for the separate issue of assigning copyright, I guess I would do it but the rate that I'd charge would be far higher.</p>

<p>I would explain to them that you need to retain the copyright and have their release on file that you can display their images in your portfolio or galleries. Basically they are asking that you don't sell their images to anyone else, which doesn't seem to unreasonable. They are still allowing you to use them for your own marketing, but you must retain your copyright to do so. What they really want is a personal usage license.... but in this license you should also restrict them from selling the images to anyone else since they are not allowing you to do so either.</p>

<p>It is not normal to turn over copyright. Most wedding photographers these days grant printing rights, which vary. Other uses, particularly for commercial reasons, are negotiable.</p>

<p>1) They don't own the copyright, so they can't deny you copyright.</p>

<p>2) Permission for images to be used in portfolios and for marketing purposes is traditionally included in most wedding photographers' contracts.</p>

<p>3) This is impossible to do. Short of having one set of prints which you guard with your life, you won't be able to comply. If you put any of your images online, they can be copied. If you lose your printed portfolio, or a sample album, they can be copied.</p>

<p>4) Other uses beyond a photographer using the images for obtaining similar work, are typically negotiated on a case by case basis. Again--they don't own the copyright, so they can't deny you the copyright--or transfer it either.</p>

<p>The bride's points 2, 3, and 4 sound absolutely reasonable to me. Point 1 doesn't make sense because they don't assign copyright to you, that's not how copyright works. You own copyright and copyright only transfers to them if you decide to give it to them.</p>

<p>Why do you want a model release, and why do you want to do more with the images than in you own marketing materials? One other thing you might want to get them to agree to is submitting the images to a wedding magazine if they might be interested in doing a profile of a wedding, but that depends a bit on the pics.</p>

 

<p>p.s. I was interpreting their third point to mean putting the images in a password protected gallery, or at least a private URL not linked to from your website so the public are unlikely to find it, rather than physically prevent downloading.</p>

<p>Thank you, it's 1.30am here in the UK. I shall read and absorbed your comments in the morning.</p>

<p>I know about point one, I was thinking - erm I actually do already own copyright to the photographs!<br>

I am not fussed about the other points that's fair enough, except the whole internet images anyone who is aware of the internet knows that it's a free market these days!<br>

I'll look into a personal Usage license Thanks Sheri</p>

<p>Simon they had the private gallery on my website and I put up some images of a guest and of miscellaneous items like the transport and the glasses being filled. But none of them.<br>

Rob - I made a mistake and only charged a nominal fee as it was my 1st wedding.</p>

 

<p>I suggest you make it clear that you own the copyrights automatically, since you created the images, and that you will not transfer the rights to them. I also suggest you agree to not use any of the wedding images in any kind of self marketing at all. This just makes it easier all around. As for other uses, agree to notify them of possible uses, in exchange for them to notify you. Payment and actual use to be negotiated among buyer, subjects (them) and copyright owner (you). If you transfer copyright to them, you will lose all control over your images--they could cut a deal with a third party, get money for it, and you'd never know.</p>

<p>Ah Nataliya, if you're in the UK then a model release isn't an appropriate thing to get them to sign, unless you had some wacky commercial use for the images in mind.</p>

<p>You do need to get their consent one way or another to using the images in your marketing etc. though, but it should be more informal than a model release. An email from them saying 'sure go ahead put them on your website' would be fine.</p>

<p>Yes Simon I am in the UK<br>

No I just wanted to use the images on my website and portfolio. No other reasons.<br>

Nadine - This is what I was tempted to do. Say no I keep copyright and I won't use your images at all. Handing over copyright just seems insane and then they can go do what they want where they want. I DON'T LIKE THAT at all!<br>

I also feel like I should hand it over as I really would like to branch out into weddings and could use their images to help market myself.</p>

 

<p>So you may have found that your asking them to sign a model release was a red rag that made them get uppety.</p>

<p>You need to explain to them that there's no need for them to sign the model release, that the photographer always owns copyright but [they can use the images in whatever you're happy with eg. you will sell them a CD that they can use as they want for £x, or they can use images on Facebook, or whatever you reckon you agreed with them and won't upset them too much], and that you agree with their proposals that:-</p>

<ul>

<li>"Permission is granted to you for use of any or all of the photographs in your own portfolio, including display on website or other medium, for your own marketing purposes"</li>

</ul>

<ul>

<li>"If you wish to use any photograph(s) for any purpose other than for your own marketing materials, then you must explain to me/us how they will be used and obtain specific authorisation (which shall not constitute transfer of copyright to you or any other party)."</li>

</ul>

<p>Those points sound fine. As for how to put them in a gallery, find out what they want (it's not clear to me anyway) and do it if technically possible and doesn't cost a fortune. If not possible then it's not possible.<br>

Or have I misunderstood something?<br>

Simon</p>

<p>I always preface my comments about legal stuff by saying I'm not a lawyer, so I'll do the same here. Other than that, though, it doesn't seem to matter when the couple signed your agreement. If it signed the agreement, it should be bound by the agreement.<br>

And, the images are indeed yours because you created them. Often, if you stand up to people in these situations, they're not - and the situation isn't - quite as intimidating.<br>

Otherwise, as Nadine said, since there's an adversarial relationship now, it's best not to overindulge in use of the images - if at all.<br>

Curt</p>

<p>See now, items 2 and 3 are contradictory, and you just cannot guarantee that an image, once uploaded online, won't be copied. Smart thieves can get around any copyright protection schemes. So if you want to use some of the images to solicit more wedding work, I'd suggest to them that you will only use the images in printed form in your portfolio, and that no copies will be made or distributed. Then--guard the printed pieces with your life, and don't make any guarantees.</p>

<p>Ah, I thought that they wanted the wedding images for themselves to view on a private gallery that the public couldn't access and download from, rather than making the marketing images used on your website un-copy-able. But I probably misunderstood.</p>

 

Never ever give way to your copyrights - ever!

<p>I agree, never ever give away the copyright.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Bride thinks if it was my wedding or photographs of my children I'd want the above wording too</p>

</blockquote>

<p>NO! It should be understood that the client isn't hiring you to merely take pictures. They are hiring <em>you</em> because of the <em>way</em> you take pictures. The way <em>you </em>see the wedding unfold. This distinction is <em>your work</em>. You own it. </p>

<p>I have no legal advice for you.</p>

<p>That said, make your customer happy. Sell them all rights to the photographs to use as they see fit. It sounds like they really don't want the images of their family on the internet, even though they trust that you'll just use it for showing potential clients, once it's on the web, anyone who can see it can copy it, so it will be out of your control.</p>

<p>If I were getting married in the internet age, I might just ask the same. You can always show some nice prints to potential clients. And you'll have plenty of other wedding samples to put on your website.</p>

<p>In the type of photography I do for a living, I never own the copyright, the client does. They sign a contract that they'll give me a copy for my portfolio, but if they don't there's not much I can do about it other than to pirate it after its out in the marketplace.</p>

<p>So, if the occasional client wants to protect the privacy of their family, let them have it and you'll all be happy in the end.</p>

<p>I'd just walk away and find another client if it were me. But then again, when I was doing weddings, I worked hard to make sure that I had clients who I saw eye to eye with.</p>

<p>Make the effort to educate, but if that doesn't work. I'd walk away. In my experience, this sort of thing in the beginning is often indicative of other future problems.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Make the effort to educate, but if that doesn't work. I'd walk away. In my experience, this sort of thing in the beginning is often indicative of other future problems.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I think mostly like Josh does. You could get into a lot of trouble in the future, maybe they are just not your clients. I mean, nobody can't be all things to all people.</p>

<p>Bit late to walk away, I already shot their wedding LOL</p>

<p>Hi Nataliya,<br>

and? how did it go? and what did you agree in the end?<br>

let us know!</p>

<p>Sorry, I thought that the contract was being written prior to the actual event.</p>

<p>Since laws vary from country to country, I'll tell you what I would do: Charge extra for the images' rights and don't use those images at all. I would probably go as far as deleting every single copy from all of my servers/workstations once all it's done, why take any chances? Hard drives can be stolen.</p>

<p>That would make them happy and you'll avoid future legal problems. Also, make the proper adjustments to the contract.</p>

<p>I am just writing up a Email here is what I am going to say. If anyone as anything to add or remove please let me know!<br>

 

<strong>As I mentioned in our phone call I always retain copyright and if you use my images anywhere I am to be credited. I never hand it over to my clients. Under UK law the photographer retains copyright unless they do sign an agreement to hand it over. I never have done and will stand by that it's just usual practise for myself and most photographers.</strong>

 

<strong>I can amend it to include your other 3 points if you still wish to sign it. You do not have to sign it however. No photo's of yourself or your husband will be used on my website or any other form of advertising.</strong>

 

</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Never ever give way to your copyrights - ever!</p>

</blockquote>

<p>For your own personal artistic work I would agree but for weddings, why would you want to retain it?</p>

<p>So If I hand it over should I say sure you can have it for xxxx amount? maybe a way to make money and keep client happy? Trouble is if I do that and they put people forward they can then say "oh she gave us copyright we just paid her xxxx for it" </p>

<p> </p>