Will 1/30 be enough to stop motion?

<p>

<p >High I am shooting at a really dark church in a couple of week’s time. No flash allowed. I went to the church this weekend and did some meter readings. From the position I have been allocated and the level of lighting (neither of these I have been told can be changed under any circumstances). </p>

<p >I will have to shoot at 1.4, 6400, 1/30. To get the correct level of exposure. I don’t want to go any higher as ISO 6400 is what I am comfortable with my camera (buying or renting another camera isn’t an option as I am a second shooter) and I can’t go any wider.</p>

<p >My question is that at 1/30 will my photos will be blurry ? As I have always been taught that 1/60th is what is required to stop motion.</p>

</p>

<p>Assuming you use a tripod, things that aren't moving and are located within your focal plane won't be blurry. Everything else probably will be.</p>

 

If you are doing a shot of them walking down the isle, practice panning beforehand and try that out as well. At 1/30 you

won't be able to capture tthem while they are moving anyway, so you can at least try something else during that time. Also

Check with the coordinator to see if flash is allowed during procession/recession. Sometimes it's allowed even when flash

during the ceremony is not.

<p>You have actually asked two questions:<br>

a) will the photos be blurry at 1/30s and in this regard I agree with Asa's answer - use a tripod and shoot when everyone / everything is "still" – use mirror up and a remote release . . .<br>

<br>

b) you also asked will 1/30s stop motion, the technical answer is NO, but you need to define: "motion" - because 1/30s might be enough to reduce the alleviate the motion significantly enough for the photo to be a keeper.<br>

<br>

The elements of motion to be considered are: <br>

<br>

Speed (of the motion) – remembering there are many speeds eg: that a swinging arm at points of the swing is moving faster than the forward motion of the body walking. The faster the speed of motion the faster the Tv required to stop it.<br>

<br>

Direction in relation to the axis of the lens. Transverse motion requires a faster Tv, than head on motion<br>

<br>

Distance from the focal plane. Closer Subjects require a faster Tv<br>

<br>

FL of the lens Telephoto lenses require a faster Tv than a wider lens (for the same Subject Distance)<br>

<br>

*** <br>

<br>

Rules of thumb: B & G Standing or Kneeling at the Altar; Standing in an Embrace; Standing exchanging Rings . . . all these images where they are essentially “still” then yes you can pull 1/30s, IF YOU TIME the SHUTTER RELEASE and you will get keepers at about 10ft to 15ft with a 50mm on a 5D – and I would use a monopod for safety, even though I am confident to pull 1/30s hand held.<br>

<br>

A slow walk, head on motion, you might be lucky to pull 1/30s and get an OK shot – but it will be either lucky or great skill with shutter release timing and excellent to nail focus, using F/1.4 <br>

<br>

WW<br>

</p>

<p > </p>

 

<p>

<p >I won’t be allowed a tripod, as the church warden said they are not allowed.</p>

<p >I can’t raise ISO to 12800 as they shots will be too grainy.</p>

<p >Guess I might be out of options here.....</p>

</p>

<p>I would just manage the expectations of the B+G and tell them about the restrictions.</p>

<p>No Tripod Even???!!! That seems fairly odd. What about if you are standing at the back of the church. I can maybe understand no tripod in the pews. You didn't mention where you were told to stand and what lens you will be using. If you are stuck in pews, and if it isn't too full a wedding, see if you can get to a spot where people aren't directly in front of you. Then make a tripod out of your arms on the top of the pew in front of you. This will give you more stability. Rest your elbows on the top of the pew. If you are in a balcony, and still aren't allowed use of a tripod, then do the elbow thing again on the railing. Also, you said you are the 2nd shooter. I'd ask the lead photographer what he'd like you to do in that situation. He may be aware of something that you aren't, like that the church is letting them do a mock up of the ceremony with flash after the real one. That's happening for me at a shoot I'm doing in a few months. They are very strict about no photos at all during the real ceremony. Find out more details from your lead photographer, and maybe suggest the recreated shots if he or she doesn't already mention them.</p>

<p>Agree with Vail that the tripod ban is unusual. If you're limited to one spot and no flash, usually that spot is out of the way and thus a tripod is allowed. This is especially true in settings with extremely low light. If you're only getting 1/30 at ISO 6400 at f/1.4, well, golly, that's pretty dark. </p>

<p>These restrictions suggest to me that the church warden and/or pastor/priest might be unaware of the severity of these constraints. You might try shooting a few examples and showing the warden the results (assuming you've been working to develop a good relationship with the church staff). Maybe ask the warden to walk down the aisle while you shoot. Examples like this, along with a very friendly and calm approach, might be enough to persuade the warden to relax one or more of those constraints. </p>

<p>In addition, listening sympathetically to why some of those restrictions are in place may satisfy the church staff that you are sensitive to their goals, and that you won't act like a jackass. I've obtained permission to use flash in venues that ban flash in the past simply by asking gently about the circumstances that led them to impose the ban in the first place, and then promising not to do what the jackass did.</p>

<p>It seems certainly worth alerting the bride and groom to the restrictions and their impact on the photos. It's not quite a total photography ban, but it does mean ceremony pictures may not feature prominently in the album or photo set. </p>

<p>As a last alternative, if you're a Nikon shooter (I don't know how Canon's highest-ISO camera does), you might suggest adding a component to the contract that allows the B/G to pay a bit more to allow for rental of a D3s, which would probably allow about two more stops of ISO before introducing unacceptable noise. (I'm inferring from your worry about exceeding 6400 that you're not using this camera body.)</p>

<p>Renting a D3s would probably run about $300, which probably doesn't make sense for a $500 package, but might for a $1500 package. (It's a last resort, and to get to this point in your discussion, you'd have to have shown the B/G example shots of the scene, negotiated extensively with the church, and explained to the B/G how your own equipment is adequate for nearly every circumstance except those in which the venue simply refuses to account for the consequences of their restrictions and for the wishes of the bride and groom to obtain quality photos of the ceremony.) </p>

<p>Couple of ideas.</p>

<p>If you can't use a tripod/monopod, consider a cord attached between your foot and the camera. Easy, discreet (basically invisible) and the positive force of keeping the camera under tension will get you two extra stops with comfort, possibly even three.</p>

<p>Consider also making a virtue of slow shutter speed. It's only a problem if you're trying to freeze motion. But you could shoot at a deliberately slow speed (1/8 or 1/15) and make movement an important ingredient of the picture. Some very artistic images can be made this way.</p>

<p>Re-read William W.'s post re motion and stopping motion. As for the tripod, I have one answer for you--string tripod. It should be fine for 1/30th with good technique. Or try to bargain for at least a monopod.</p>

<p>A string tripod can be made for less than $10. Use a metal eye hook that has a 1/4 20 screw tip, and tie a length of nylon rope to it. If you want to, fuse the knot with a match. Also look for found objects--pew tops and walls to lean on/against.</p>

<p>You realize that 1/30th is hand holdable with good technique, with wide focal lengths to perhaps, 35mm (full frame).</p>

<p>Hi Steve,</p>

<p>There is a new device in the market called a " Steadpod"...It's a cable with a clip on one end and a block that attaches to the camera on the other end. I have one and it works quite well. The clip allows you to clip the end to your belt or you can run it to the floor and step in it. Google steadpod and you'll find it.<br>

Good luck</p>

<p>Ha ha...Gary--that's a commercial version of the string tripod.</p>

<p>Agreed, the biggest thing your paying for is the self-recoil cable. I first picked mine up at the Javits center, really inexpensive as they had a show price.</p>

<p>#1 As Vail suggests, discuss the problem with the primary shooter. What is he/she doing? It is the responsibility of the primary shooter to make sure the 2nd camera is compatible with him, so he can use the pix of the 2nd shooter in the album. If he is telling you to "go figure it out yourself" w/o any guidance and then he expects GOOD pix that risks that you bringing back unusable pix.</p>

<p>#2 re ISO setting. IMHO if the decision is noise at high ISO vs no pix or a blurry pix, I would choose to use a higher ISO and accept the noise. Again check with the primary photog as to what he is doing and his advice.</p>

<p>#3 re 1/30 sec shutter speed. How is YOUR low shutter speed skills? IOW can YOU hold the camera still enough to get good blur-free shots at 1/30 sec with the lenses that you plan to use? If you cannot hold still enough, then the answer is NO. And remember that event shooting is more stressful than a calm testing.<br>

The general shutter speed guideline of 1/ISO is a "general" guideline based on 35mm full frame w/o benefit of VR/IS technology. If you have a crop factor camera, you have to multiply the guideline by the magnification effect of the crop factor. Example 50mm lens = 1/50 sec * 1.6x crop factor = 1/80 sec. But these are "general" guidelines. YOUR skills at shooting at slow shutter speeds, and the specific conditions at the time affect this as well. <br>

- If you do not have a STEADY hold, you have to shoot faster. <br>

- If you have a STEADY hold you can shoot slower.<br>

You really need to know your own limitations, as going beyond it risks blurry pix.<br>

BTW VR/IS technology is not a magic bullet. It compensates for YOUR movement, not subject movement.</p>

I didn't read any of the posts. First off I never shoot above ASA 800. when shooting ceremonies because the altars are lit up. So you have to adjust your camera according to the types of altar lights. If you don't want to reset your camera for this type of lighting, simply shoot on AUTO and adjust them in photoshop. I feel a tripod is a must. Take 3 or so shots of the same pose, the bride and groom don't really move around much, so within 3 shots you should get a very sharp image.

 

In the very dark chuches I usually shoot around 15th of a second at F4 and at ISO 400. Again, the lights

on the altar are pretty well lit.

 

When the bride and groom kiss for the first kiss you can use a flash. No one will ever notice the flash. 30th of a second at or about 5.6 or so dependin how far away you are, will work fine; with a flash. If you are far way set the flash to full power at F4 or so.

 

Since no flash is allowed I'd use a tripod, not a monopod simply because there could be some shake at 15th or an 8th of a second.

 

The reason I'm opposed to shooting above 800 or so I feel there is a drastic color shift, less vibrant and you also have to deal with pixels. I'm using the 1Ds Mark 3 and when I enlarge something over an 8X10 you can really see the difference between 1600, 800, and 400.

 

If you can see the church during a Sundays service, study the lighting on the altar.

<p>Oh yeah, and any of these suggestions I'm giving you of making a tripod out of your arms, at the edge of pews and rails of balconies, USE YOUR CAMERA STRAP. On the off chance you loose your balance, you don't want your camera to come crashing to the floor, making a scene, and you out thousands of dollars in damaged camera equipment. A photographer I was working for once imparted these wise words to me, "It has a camera strap, USE IT!"</p>

<p>Also, shoot in RAW (which you should be doing anyways), this will give you more flexibility to bring up the exposure in post in photoshop or lightroom (or your editor of choice). It isn't a perfect solution, but it helps.</p>

<p>Oh, sure, Vail, be safe -- that's fine and all -- but you're overlooking the the potential "I told you so" moment you'd have when you later confronted the church warden who forbade the tripod if, during the service, you loudly shattered a $2,000 lens, disrupting the ceremony. Imagine how red-faced the church warden would be <em>then</em>! </p>

<p>You don't want to go higher than ISO 6400? Wow.<br>

If you have to shoot at 6400 AND are shooting a 1.4 lens, you're brave.<br>

The hand strap is a help to me and if combined with some sort of strap technique as Vail mentioned (I have strap over my left shoulder and then use my right elbow to create a rigid frame) it can help.<br>

I don't know if a string tripod could be combined.<br>

Let us see a pic or two? Even if they aren't great?</p>

<p ><strong ><em >“I will have to shoot at 1.4, 6400, 1/30. To get the correct level of exposure”</em></strong></p>

<p ><strong ><em > </em></strong></p>

<p >Call me silly but I went to bed last night thinking about these two sentences . . . they troubled me.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >ARE YOU CERTAIN ? ? ? Is that measured as a skin tone / 18% grey card - reflected reading from a subject where the there will be located?</p>

<p > </p>

<p >That’s an awfully, terribly, critically low EV: </p>

<p > </p>

<p >I shoot “Carols by Candlelight” mostly every year (literally by candlelight ONLY) and notionally pull F/2 @ 1/60s @ ISO1600 throughout the Evening.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I have shot a lot of my work at excruciatingly low light levels and with equipment which is not “capable” of ISO much more than 1600 – and in the old day ASA800 film and pushing it to 3200, maybe . . .</p>

<p > </p>

<p >But what you are suggesting is an EV which is:</p>

<p > </p>

<p >[-2EV] from this <a href="../photo/9567754">http://www.photo.net/photo/9567754</a> which is essentially illuminated by only one room light in a 20ft ceiling.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >[-2/3 EV] from this <a href="../photo/10442931">http://www.photo.net/photo/10442931</a> which was a single street light situated about 40ft away and on a moonless (thick cloud covered) night </p>

<p > </p>

<p >[-1EV] from this: <a href="../photo/10738709">http://www.photo.net/photo/10738709</a> which was a 12v 40w ceiling spot about 8ft away – and it was set on a low dimmer. . . </p>

<p > </p>

<p >You are basically talking an EV like this: <a href="../photo/9568321">http://www.photo.net/photo/9568321</a> which I think I underexposed by one stop, maybe a bit more and pulled at F/1.4 @ 1/15s @ ISO 3200(struggles to remember exact details) but none the less it was a very, very dimly lit bar – I have never been in any Church that dark, during any type of Ceremony. ? ? ? </p>

<p > </p>

<p > I am not arguing I am just asking are you CERTAIN of you meter readings and your metering technique?</p>

<p > </p>

<p >WW</p>

<p > </p>

<p >PS: </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Apropos techniques to assist: It seems obvious you will be at the 24mm to 85mm range and using a Prime as per<em > "I will have to shoot at 1.4, 6400, 1/30"</em> - so if you give <strong ><em >exact details</em></strong> in regard to: </p>

<p >Ø FL, </p>

<p >Ø SD, </p>

<p >Ø You position and location and standing sitting surrounds for support etc</p>

<p >Ø The exact parts of the Service you have to shoot, </p>

<p >I reckon you'd get some detailed, and very shot specific advice. </p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p> "I won’t be allowed a tripod, as the <strong><em>church warden </em></strong>said they are not allowed."<br>

<br>

England ? - County Church? Old and incandescent lighting? Few windows, those that are, are high and stained glass? Night-time / evening service? <br>

<br>

Details are useful to assist advice, much easier than guessing all the time.</p>

<p > </p>

 

<p>That is one dark chapel. Groom might miss the ring finger or the kiss. Wow, weddings can be crapola, even at 6400. How did any previous photo shooter achieve anything. Check the church records. Contact the firm, and get someone to talk to you as a favor, as all need assistants now and then. Be a light detective. Why not? Sounds like a church that needs a remodel to allow illumination. Even the guests want to snap a few, huh? I could be wrong. I hate technical dilemmas like this. Not fair. The service is a service to the bridal couple and not to the clergy and sexton...(bah and humbug.).</p>

<p>Assuming the primary photographer is a pro and knows what he is doing.....why not discuss this with him or her first?</p>

<p>you don't even state what camera you have - rangefinder, slr, or what? i'd be more confident in this circumstance with the former, as opposed to the latter.</p>

<p>Sounds to me like the still photographer is playing second fiddle to the videographer (again). Shoot the flash and deal with the fallout later.</p>

<p>I agree with William are you sure about the 6400 ISO, I once shot a wedding where the only lights were way high and recessed, 1600 worked fine with 1.4 lens, may want to ask about monopod usage they did not allow tripods during the ceremony they did allow a monopod. The lights were much better at the alter.</p>