Leica S2

<p>It's my understanding that the Leica S2 is now shipping. Does anyone have any experience with this new digital body?<br /><br />Additionally, are the lenses that are featured on the <a href="http://www.s.leica-camera.com/">S2 webpage</a> new, i.e. for use with this new digital body...?<br /><br />Thanks in advance!</p>

<p>At those prices and with the long production delays it will be a little while to find someone with experience on one of these. I was able to handle one at a dealer show, but that doesn't count for much. Yes, the autofocus lenses are newly designed and dedicated to the S2. They're hefty, too, to cover the very large sensor, like most medium format SLR lenses. In handling it reminded me of an improved digital R8/R9 with larger lenses. Pretty special system.</p>

<p>Go <a href="http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-s2-forum/">here</a> you can read comments by real users and wannabe users of the S2. The Leica rep for my area reports they have been allocated about three S2's per month at this point, with about 20 on order.</p>

<p>Yes, the lenses are unique to the S2, and in fact most of them are not yet available (a new one was <a href="http://www.dpreview.com/news/1005/10051104leica35mms2lens.asp">announced </a>this week).</p>

<p>In addition to the Leica forum Steve linked above, here are the North American writeups I've seen:</p>

<p><a href="http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12243">Guy Mancuso/Jack Flesher</a></p>

<p><a href="http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/leica-s2-first.shtml">Michael Reichmann</a></p>

<p><a href="http://www.reidreviews.com">Sean Reid</a> (paid site, but $30/year is well worth it for any Leica user)</p>

<p><a href="http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2010/02/28/the-leica-s2-digital-camera-review/">Steve Huff</a></p>

<p>I'm sure there are plenty more....</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I just held an S2 in my hands the other day. They have one at my local photo store, Pictureline in Salt Lake City. Absolutely amazing camera. It costs more than my car. Don’t plan to get one. Maybe a M9 someday.</p>

<p>Thanks for the information!<br /><br />I have been unexpectedly out of town during the past 5 days, so I haven't had a chance to initiate some follow-up questions until now.<br /><br />They are as follows:<br /><br />Having never had the opportunity to work with Leica equipment before, <em>especially as it relates to the incredible reputation of Leica lenses,</em> I can only go on what I have read and, more particularly, by the personal recommendations made by amateur and professional photographers who own Leica equipment.<br /><br />I remember a conversation I had with a professional wedding photographer several years ago, someone who was shooting with the R system (even though it was manual focus only, of course... a specific challenge, he noted, for any wedding photographer) and who said that given his 25 years of wedding photography experience, NOTHING came close to the clarity and precision of Leica lenses (especially the clarity). (He really did emphasize "NOTHING" in that manner...)<br /><br />Based primarily upon the many, many hours of conversations I had with this associate, I was convinced that someday I was going to own a Leica system, especially for the lenses.<br /><br />Given that Leica has just released its S system (medium format), and given the fact that Leica produces its new camera bodies (in particular) much, much less often than Nikon or Canon (or even other medium format digital manufacturers), for instance, my first question is:<br /><br /><em><strong>I am assuming that this digital body will hold its value MUCH better than a Nikon or Canon digital body (even the high-end for these two brands), and perhaps even better than the digital bodies of Mamiya or Hasselblad…?</strong></em><br /><br />Meaning, if I went ahead and seriously considered the investment surrounding this new digital body, I'm hoping it would hold its value much longer than most 35mm and medium format digital bodies.<br /><br /><em><strong>Secondly, for those individuals associated with this particular forum, I would like to get as much input as possible regarding the lenses. In particular, are they truly some of the finest glass (if not the finest) ever devised, or is their reputation somewhat overblown...?</strong></em><br /><br />I would have 2 professional photographic purposes in mind in investing in such a system: first would be my landscape photography (I have been shooting with the Canon 1Ds Mark III for the past few years). Secondarily, I would also be involved in wedding photography in my local area as well (having been a semi professional wedding photographer for the past 7 years, using the Canon 5D).<br /><br />Lastly, what is it exactly about the Leica class that makes it so incredibly clear and precise, so remarkably valuable, particularly with regard to not only monetary expense but overall reputation as well.<br /><br />Thanks in advance for any and all responses!</p>

<p>Hi Kevin,</p>

<p>I've been following the <a href="../medium-format-photography-forum/00WPVM">long thread</a> you started over in the MF forum, and it's been very interesting.</p>

<p>Re: your questions above:</p>

<p>First, don't read too much into the opinions of the wedding photographer you met who said that nothing comes anywhere close to the Leica R lenses.<br /> <br />Consider: there are an awful lot of professional photographers and successful businesspeople who photograph as a hobby/passion who could justify the purchase of any camera they wish yet who <em>do not choose to shoot Leica</em>. Amazing! Perhaps they didn't do their research and thus are unaware of Leica (unlikely), or perhaps they've found that other cameras better suit their needs.</p>

<p>For example, for wedding photography, a $40-50,000 Leica S2 kit would likely be overkill. Sure, it would work, but it isn't as suitable for weddings as some 'lesser' cameras in some pretty important respects, such as "being able to shoot in very low light" and "having an identical backup body." A pair of 20-plus megapixel Nikons or Canons with good lenses and multiple flash options would be a far better choice, most wedding photographers would say.</p>

<p>Re: your two boldface questions:</p>

<p>1) Nobody knows how well the S2 will hold its value. On one level, resale value doesn't matter unless you expect to sell it before you earn from it the amount it has depreciated, and you shouldn't buy it if that's a likely prospect. But since you asked, all anyone can say is a guess. If the new Pentax 645 digital is as good as claimed, it could radically change the medium-format market and the Leica's value could drop dramatically. Granted, assuming you could find buyers who both covet <em>and could afford</em> a used S2 (and that's a tiny percentage of photographers), the Leica may hold a higher <em>percentage </em>of its value than less prestigious brands. But a $2000 Canon 5DII losing 50% of its value over five years is only $1000 depreciation, while a Leica S2 losing only 20% of its value over the same period is $5000, so notions of "retained value" are clearly relative.</p>

<p>2) The S2 lenses are no doubt exceptional. But they're not miracles. There are limits to how much information even the world's greatest lens can record onto a 30x45mm sensor, and if another manufacturer makes a better sensor with almost-as-good lenses, the S2's advantage is instantly negated.</p>

<p>--------------------</p>

<p>Re: your personal needs (and again, I'm referencing your comments in the <a href="../medium-format-photography-forum/00WPVM">long thread</a> at the MF forum):</p>

<p>There aren't many photographers who would say the ideal landscape camera is also the ideal wedding camera (your 1DsIII isn't a bad choice if the same camera must be used for both).</p>

<p>If you can really pull together the $30-40,000 entry fee for the S2, that money <em>might </em>be better spent on....</p>

<p><strong>For landscape</strong> - either the Pentax 645 (if you want to use digital) or a 6x7cm-or-larger film system with a healthy budget for high-quality scans<br /> <br /> and also<br /> <strong> </strong></p>

<p><strong>For weddings</strong> - a pair of good DSLRs (one for backup), some excellent glass, and a comprehensive lighting setup</p>

<p>Even after those two kits are assembled you'd still have enough change (compared to buying an S2 with lenses) to buy a high-performance computer, which you'll need to process the huge files you're going to get.<br /> <br />Good luck with your quest. My main advice re: this query would be to not assume that any Leica, even the most-expensive Leica, is the 'best' camera for all applications.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>If the new Pentax 645 digital is as good as claimed, it could radically change the medium-format market and the Leica's value could drop dramatically.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>

<p>Thanks very much for the info! It's truly appreciated.</p>

<p>Where exactly are people getting the latest info regarding this Pentax camera? Meaning, I've heard a lot of buzz about it, but not really sure where people are getting their info since I don't believe it's ever been officially reviewed (especially since it hasn't been officially released).</p>

<p>What is so special about the potential of this particular Pentax camera...?</p>

<p>Thanks again.</p>

</p>

<blockquote>

<p>My main advice re: this query would be to not assume that any Leica, even the most-expensive Leica, is the 'best' camera for all applications.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>And you are absolutely correct about one camera not generally meeting the express needs of both realms; therefore, I should point out that landscape photography is my primary semi-professional photographic activity.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"Where exactly are people getting the latest info regarding this Pentax camera?"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Nobody knows too much about it, because as you note it hasn't been released (and its availability in the US will come even later than elsewhere). But even only in promised form it's the big wild card in the Medium-Format market: any photographer thinking about investing $30,000-40,000 in a MF digital camera has to account for the prospect of a <strong>$10,000 40mp* </strong>MF camera coming along in the near future.</p>

<p>*<em>that's "what's so special about this Pentax": the combination of sensor size, resolution, and price, coupled with the prospect of at least some compatibility with lots of Pentax MF lenses that are already out there.</em></p>

<p>Not that the Pentax 645 digital hasn't been promised before....</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dpreview.com/news/0503/05031502pentax645digital.asp">March 15, 2005</a>:<br /> "Pentax has today announced the development of an 18.6 megapixel 645 Digital medium-format camera which will be revealed at the Photo Imaging Expo in Tokyo on March 17th 2005."</p>

<p><em>[Long pause]</em><br /> <a href="http://www.dpreview.com/news/1003/10031002pentax645d.asp">March 10, 2010</a>:<br /> "Pentax has finally unveiled its much anticipated 645D medium format digital camera."</p>

<p>That second link has various photos and specs (see also <a href="http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/pentax645d-1st.shtml">this</a>), but I haven't been watching closely to see who else has covered it.</p>

<p>The 645D is supposed to start shipping in Japan <a href="../pentax-camera-forum/00WPaB">by the end of May</a>, but that remains to be seen. Go to any of the various Pentax forums at photo.net and elsewhere for updates if you're interested; few matters relating to any Pentax camera escape discussion on those forums!</p>

<p>Thanks for the info, Ralph.</p>

<p>I was wondering if anyone had any additional info to add/provide in relation to the following question (from another post on landscape photography):</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Hi Q.G.,<br /><br />It was noted to me a couple of years ago that there were a select few number of digital camera manufacturers (I believe Leica was one of them) that did not have anti-aliasing and other automatic filtering mechanisms within their digital sensors; Bayer patters may have been another one of these aspects that were not included as well.<br /><br />The individual who noted this was a longtime professional wedding photographer, one who used Leica equipment primarily. He said he chose the R system specifically for this reason.<br /><br />Do you know if this is true...?<br /><br />I went ahead and downloaded the tech spec sheet on the new S2, but I cannot see any information regarding these aspects (maybe I'm blind).</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Here was the response:</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Kevin,<br /><br />The only other way of capturing colour would be the Carver Mead/Foveon trick, of putting the three wells below each other, instead of in a pattern next to each other. Else, a Bayer pattern (or similar device) is needed, and thus used.<br /><br />A few, more expensive digital devices do not have anti-aliasing filters, yes.<br /><br />The Leica S2 has no anti-aliasing filter (it uses software in post-processing to do what would be necessary). The Kodak sensor has a Bayer pattern.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Again, if anyone has anything to add -- Specifically as it relates to the Leica sensor's unique characteristics, i.e. no anti-aliasing filter and potentially the lack of other common digital-camera sensor aspects as well.<br /><br />Thanks again for all responses!</p>

<p>FWIW i saw part of a review by a Japanese magazine. The S2 vs Nikon D3. Well what i thought might happen, the D3 preferred. No, the magazine carried a test between two photographers, one with the Leica M9 and the other used film in a MP. There was no doubt that the MP was by far a better image maker. The magazine often shows the classic beauty of older techniques, film, wet-darkroom and classic cameras.<br>

i will wait to see how the Leica S2 fares against the Pentax 645! They share the same sensor from Kodak..<br>

The beauty of Pentax besides being way less expensive, is it's usage of all the old 645 and 6x7 lenses.<br>

The X1 is already trounced by Panasonic, Olympus and the soon to be available Sony N's..<br>

Unless the S2 is beyond superb not in price but results, Leica will have gambled badly with the killing of the "Hunchback of Solms" the R8 and R9.</p>