Pentax 67 Mirror slap and Other Qs

<p>Well, I am looking for a camera to do candid shots. Hand held. I have a mamiya AF 645. I had been planning on moving up to a larger neg, as I tend to print 16x20+, but I heard there can be mirror vibrations that effect the film. <br>

Do you know what range the mirror will effect the film?<br>

I prefer a SLR to a rangefinder. Are there any other SLR 6x7 cameras out there that are convenient to carry around?<br>

I havent yet printed my 645 up to a 16x20. Does anyone know how well that prints at that size?</p>

<p>Quality in prints is highly subjective. A lot of photographers here on Photo.net will make 16x20 prints from 35mm negatives and claim they are wonderful. Before going out and buying a new camera, why don't you try enlarging the 645 negatives to see if they meet your personal standards. You could rent or borrow the Pentax 67 and shoot comparison photos side by side with the AF645 and make enlargements from both negatives. If you can tell a big difference, then buy the new camera. If you can't, then save your money or buy additional lenses for the camera you already own. </p>

<p>As allen said, quality is highly subjective. My Pentax 67II negs hold up to my standards to an 11x14 enlargment, typically. I also shoot 4x5 and 8x10 mostly so i'm kinda obsessed with details in my prints. There are folks that print 24x30's from that camera all the time and are happy with the results. The pentax is loud, the shutter vibrates a lot, and I wouldn't recommend it for off-tripod shooting. The lenses are great though, some better than others. <br>

The bronica gs-1 would be a better choice as it uses leaf shutter lenses but they are harder to come by. Cheap though and you can swap backs on the camera.</p>

<p>I used to have a Pentax 6x7 (the middle version with MLU). With the 105 2.4 mounted I took some handheld shots of an old rusty dump truck at 1/500, 1/250, 1/125 and 1/60, changing apertures to balance the exposure. On Ilford Delta 400 all of the 4x6 proof prints (obviously) looked great, so I had the 1/125 shot enlarged to 16x20, and I was impressed. The detail in the headlight glass and the flaking paint was still sharp. <br>

If you get a Pentax 6x7 you'll have a lot of fun, don't worry about the mirror or shutter slap unless you are using the few critical speeds. If you do use those few speeds, such as 1/30 through 2 seconds, I found that pressing down gently on the prism with my hand worked just fine while I pushed the cable release. </p>

<p>A 16" print is barely enlarging a 645 negative. For years I have sold brides 20 and 30 inch prints struck from them. Negatives to be greatly enlarged just need a lot of TLC during exposure. Things like careful focusing, and eliminating camera shake via a tripod, etc.</p>

<p>Nathan, I have found the Pentax 67 to give consistently excellent results when hand-held with either the 90mm f2.8 or 105mm f2.4 lenses at a shutter speed of 1/125th or faster. At 1/60th I could see some degradation on some shots, which, for me, is about the same success rate that I obtained with a 35mm format SLR with 50mm lens.</p>

<p>Although I really like the Pentax 67 and still own one together with a few lenses for particular situations, I wanted a lighter and more compact kit for travelling with work, so I exchanged the familiar SLR viewfinder for the Mamiya 7II, which I think makes for a better camera for candid shots. The shutter is almost silent and is free of vibration, making much slower shutter speeds possible. The lenses are sharp wide open, too. It was just a matter of persisting through the initial unfamiliar feel. </p>

<p>"Candid" shots AND Pentax 6x7 ? sounds like an odd couple of things.<br>

The mirror claping noise will scare all widelife in a half a mile radius.<br>

Thw mirror clap will also warn human beings to close eyes in time for any subsequent flash photography.</p>

<p>While 6 x 7 lenses are great, the camera has mirror lock-up feature, and best used not for "candis" shots, but that depends how you define "candid".</p>

<p>In old Graflexs slrs one has 2x3, 3x4, 4x5 and 5x7 models; the mirror slap does not go out 1/2 mile; maybe several feet. The "wizz" of the FP shutters rollers is the loudest thing. <br>

Strangely one can shoot great candids with a Graflex slr</p>

<p>As far as vibrations; shoot 3/4 roll handheld and 1/4 roll with a tripod to see how *your* handholding is; versus different shutter speeds. Like shooting hoops; hitting base balls; you want enough data points to check ones *own* limits. How well folks can hand hold a camera has a lot of scatter; another's limit might be way less or way better than yours.</p>

<p>One gets a lot more scatter in results at lower shutter speeds. With a fixed scene one can shoot many images and use the few great ones. With a one time event were one can only shoot 1 or 2 frames; it is better to use a higher shutter speed.</p>

<p>I've observed no vibration-induced blur at any shutter speed, 67II, MUP, arca swiss Z1, series 5 sysematic, focal lengths up to 200mm. I've looked very carefully at 100% crops, compared them to pictures taken with a 500CM, and I think I'll go blind before I find anything wrong with either camera.</p>

<p>Over the years we have had a lot of discussion on this subject. As a long time Pentax 67 user, my opinion is that mirror slap is a noise issue. The effect of the large focal plane shutter closing is what may cause loss of sharpness. If you are shooting hand-held, this will not be an issue because your hands dampen any vibrations from the mirror closing. Lots of study has shown that if there is any degradation of the image, it usually happens in a shutter speed range from 1/2 second down to 1 second.</p>

<p>The usual work around for those of us who use the 67 for landscape is to use a sturdy tripod, mirror lock up, and then put slight downward pressure on the camera and release the shutter with the index finger, not a cable release. Holding the camera and exerting the downward pressure on the tripod dampens any vibration.</p>

<p>P.S. the camera's relative contribution to softness is essentially zero compared to yours, if you're handholding. If you're handholding, sharper lenses make a bigger difference than lens shutters or mirrorless designs.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Several years ago someone in the Pentax 67 forum had performed a test of the reputed Pentax 67 and 67II mirror slap, using a nickel on the top deck and also using a small laser pen affixed to the top of the prism. I believe it was found that the noise as well as movement occurs AFTER exposure. I've been able to handhold mine easily at 1/60 with all but the 200 and 300mm lenses.</p>

<p>Second what Tom says - with all the noise and clatter that goes with the 6x7 shutter, it never gave me any soft negs. Ive owned lots of different cameras and loved the big Pentax, but I found that 6x7 and 5x4 cameras all got really bulky and much less fluent to use in the field that their 35mm or 645 equivalents. The big question is whether the extra quality will show on a 16x20.... the answer I found was that there was a massive difference going from 35mm to 645. A noticeable but small difference going from Bronica 645 to Hassy 6x6 and no noticeable print quality benefits from 6x6 to 6x7. The Hassy was also the smoothest easiest MF camera to use. Whilst this is all subjective my advice would be to look at the 500/501CM or Mamiya 7.</p>

<p>Dittos, in using the non-MLU 6x7 for 35 years! I recall seeing that balanced-nickel video, quite convincing... of something I'd really always knew. It's said that the 67II has even better vibration damping.</p>

<p>Nathan,</p>

<p>Let's see. A Mamiya 645 frame is 41.5x56mm and 3:4 ratio. A 16x20 print is 4:5 ratio. This means you'll be cropping the long side of the frame slightly, and the enlargment factor is based on the short side. 41.5mm is 1.63 inches; 1.63 -> 16 inches is almost exactly 10x. This is around the generally accepted upper limit for a "sharp" enlargement from film at close viewing distance. [Digital captures are often enlarged 20-30x...e.g. a 7x5 inch print from a 7x5mm digicam 1/1.8 sensor is 25x]. So with fine grained film and careful technique, you should be fine.</p>