Is it the lens or the photographer?

<p>

<p>Hello All,<br>

I recently decided to get into digital SLR photography to take photos of my children and the scenery around me. I did a lot of online research and purchased a Canon 50D with a 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM kit lens, a canon 70-200mm f/2.8L IS EF USM LENS, and I also have a Canon Speedlite 420EX. I have read quite a bit about photography and surf these forums regularly. However, I am lacking in practical experience.<br>

My issue at the moment is that a large majority of my photos, especially basketball / indoor sports photos are blurry or out of focus. I have two examples posted below. (As a matter fact my wife tells me her Sony Cybershot takes better pictures and so far I have to agree.) I posted two examples below.<br>

We play in a small indoor gym for children where the bleachers are very close to the sideline. The focus distance for the 70-200 seems to be too long for the gym we play in and the frames are too narrow to capture a sense of the action. The 28-135mm, gets good frames but the photos just don't turn out. I have tried adjusting the ISO to no avail. I tried using Tv with say 1/250 and the photos come out too dark. When I try Program mode with high ISOs and the photos come out shaky or too narrowly focused (only the person/area with the AF dot comes in focused). I shot the example below in Action Mode and got this shake. I have alot of photos just like this one. I would like to be able to freeze the action including the ball, players, all and still keep the scene in focus. I don't think using the flash is option.<br>

Photo 1 info shutter=1/10, f/5.0, 70mm, flash=off, metering = Pattern, ISO 1600, Action Program<br>

<img src="webkit-fake-url://AEEF0C59-E34E-4430-9C08-F09C77CB003E/image.tiff" alt="" /></p>

<p>Can the 28-135 without flash handle this type of indoor photography? Do I need a faster lens? Wouldn't the faster lens exacerbate the problem with the bokeh, or only one player/object being in focus?<br>

Any advice on taking better basketball photos, or photos in general is much appreciated.<br>

Best regards,<br>

Dave</p>

</p>

<p>Unless you can <em>really</em> crank up the ISO (in order to buy you both a higher shutter speed <em>and</em> a stopped-down lens to get you the depth of field you're after), you're out of luck. Laws of physics stuff.<br /><br />Yes, f/5 is probably just too slow to solve your problem. A faster wide lens would help, but you certainly will be dealing with shallow DoF, no matter what. Your only other choice is to add more light (say, off-camera flash - though that's frowned on by many leagues and coaches).<br /><br />The shutter speed of 1/10th of a second is much to long, and could never freeze action. You need to be up around 1/250th or even faster. That's something like 4 stops less light coming in, which means you need to buy back four stops some other way. If you open up your lens to do that, you'd have to be down around f/1.8 (talk about shallow depth of field!), or you''d have to split the difference, shoot around f/2.8, and raise ISO to or above 3200. <br /><br />Sounds to me like you'd really benefit from something like a 50/1.8 (cheap, actually!), and then working on compositions that lend themselves to the shallow DoF.</p>

<p>I shoot sports all the time and just finished up a season of basketball. Matt is right, 1/10 is wayyyyyyyyyy too slow. The ideal situation is a fast lense, 2.8 or lower and a high iso. The 50 1.8 should help you get the 1/250 or more. The Canon 50 1.8 is not real well build but it works well under the basket, and for under $100, you need to get one.</p>

<p>the 70-200mm f/2.8 is a great b-ball lens. It can seem a little long on a crop , but if you get on a corner of the court it will work with some practice. I have used the f/4 version (the f/2.8 is ideal) in a high school gym with great results. Just peg the zoom at 70mm when the action is on the close end and at 200mm when its on the other end of the court. I tried the 50mm, but it was too short for me. It worked great under the basket, but that was it. I even had 2 bodies, one with the 50mm and the other with the 70-200mm, but I eventually gave up on the 50mm b/c I couldn't change hands as quickly as the action happened. I just kept the 70-200mm in hand b/c it produced more keepers. Here are a couple examples of a shots at the near end of the court at 70mm.</p><div></div>

<p>Here's another example.</p>

<div></div>

<p>Thank you for the advice everyone. Nathan, I really like your basketball shots. That's what I'm going for. I'll try the 70-200 at practice this week. I'll also look at getting the 50mm f/1.8. </p>

<p>Thanks again. Have a good day to all of you.<br>

Cheers,<br>

Dave</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Wouldn't the faster lens exacerbate the problem with the bokeh, or only one player/object being in focus?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Dave, just to clarify, the problem that you're talking about here is not bokeh, or the quality with which out of focus objects are rendered, but depth of field, which is the range of subject distances that are in focus given a certain aperture and focal length.</p>

<p>Before you go to practice, take a look at this <a href="http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html">depth of field calculator</a> and plug in your camera, possible focal lengths, and realistic subject distances. This will give you a range of apertures, focal length, and subject distance combinations to try out. For example, using your camera with the 70-200 set at f5.6 and 70mm, for a subject 20 ft from you, you get a depth of field of 17.7 to 23 feet (total of 5.3 feet). Which means that anything within that range should be in focus. Set the focal length at 200mm and you get a range of 19.7 to 20.3 feet. That's a range of only .6 feet. With a subject at 100 feet, the ranges go to 60 to 300 ft and 92 to 100 ft, respectively.</p>

<p>Wider lenses give more depth of field than telephoto lenses. If you set your 28-135 at 50mm (which would be the same as a 50mm prime lens, as far as DOF is concerned) at a subject distance of 100 ft and the same f5.6 you get a DOF of 43 feet to infinity. The trade off is that the subject does not occupy much of the frame and you will have to do some cropping that will lessen the image quality. Try setting your 28-135 at 50mm and see what you get before you buy a 50mm prime.</p>

<p>A trick that I use when shooting in low light and trying to keep shutter speeds fast, is to use aperture priority and set -1 (or -2 if the light is really dim). This deliberately underexposes the shot, but causes the shutter speed to be cut in half (or by a factor of 4 for -2 ev). Also make sure that you're not set on auto ISO so that the camera can't change ISO instead of the shutter speed. I then use EV compensation in post processing to brighten the picture back to what it should have been. The only trade off here is that you might lose some detail in the shadow areas.</p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

<p>Nathan...the other 'Nathan', is right about shooting from the corner at 70mm end of your 70-200. I use Canon's 85mm f1.8 lens from the same spot and get good results, usually at iso 3200 or 1600, f2.8-f2.0 and 1/500 to freeze the action. For shots from under the backboard, I'd recommend something wider like the Sigma 30mm f1.4 which is fast and wide enough to get the underside of the backboard and not cut off the feet of the players.</p>

<p>You really need to spend some time learning photography basics and how iso, aperture and shutter speed are all related. There are a lot of good books on photography (not to mention your camera's manual) that will help you out a lot. You already have a good setup and will be getting great shots in no time. Good luck!</p>

<p>Oh, I'll add that I currently use a 40D.</p><div></div>

<p>I usually try to shoot at 1/500 shutter speed, and that often means ISO 6400 when I'm using a longer lens. The 50/1.8 already suggested is an excellent choice if you can stand near the baseline under the boards. I also put my camera in manual mode. There's no reason to meter more than once if the light is constant, and this way I don't have to worry that the meter will be fooled by the reflectivity of the subject.</p><div></div>

<p>Fast action in a dark gym without the benefit of flash pushes photography to its absolute technical limits. You have a good camera, but this kind of shooting would be difficult even with a technological marvel like the Canon 1DmkIV or the Nikon D3S in hand. Good luck with your faster lenses. They will definitely help. Can you use flash from time to time? Is that against the rules?</p>

<p>I am not a professional, but I will tell you from experience how I learned to deal with these problems you are having...</p>

<p>First of all, you have pretty good equipment. I just have a measley Canon Rebel XT and have been wanting to upgrade to the 50D. I also have a 70-200mm f/2.8 as well. After reading the other posts, I will also add that I purchased the canon 50mm f/1.8 and a 28-70mm f/2.8. The latter two lenses I use more when I shoot basketball. It really depends on what type of shot you want. If you want the player by themselves dribbling, use the 200mm. If you want a basket shot, use the others. I rotate around with all of these, but I mainly have the 28-70mm on my camera most of the time. It really depends on how much room you have at the baseline. I started out with only the 70-200mm and I made it work for basket shots, but the smaller, older gyms with small distances between the baseline and the wall really challenged me.</p>

<p>Secondly, it took me a lot of practice to get to where I did not have blurry shots. The best mode I have found to shoot in is Manual mode. This gives you complete control of every attribute and function of the camera including aperture, shutter speed, and ISO speed...all of which have EVERYTHING to do with lighting and good focused, crisp shots. I also use the center point focus, keeping the "red dot" on the player of interest. No matter what focusing mode you are in, you will probably never get "all" of the players in the shot in focus. Just concentrate on the player with the ball. Players without the ball are not as big of a point of interest in a basketball shot.</p>

<p>Thirdly, you may want to invest in some sort of post processing software such as Adobe Lightroom. Opening your lense all the way up to f/2.8 will add lighting, but it will also put you at risk for having "soft focus" shots. I have found that for most of the gyms I shoot in, the "sweet spot" for my lense is f/3.2, with ISO 1600 (This is as high as my rebel will go...ur 50D will go much higher which will help with lighting too!), and shutter speed absolutely no lower than 1/160. If I go lower than this, my shots are blurry, and everyone wants "ball stoppage" in a basketball shot. Your shots WILL look dark more than likely, but if you will notice they will be sharper and crisper. Also shooting with a high ISO speed will make your photos "noisy" which Lightroom is WONDERFUL at fixing too. I have the Canon 430ex speedlite, but I never use it in basketball photography. One thing to remember, as you will probably always want to get that great shot of someone shooting a layup, they DO NOT appreciate a flash in their eyes as they are shooting, especially free throws.</p>

<p>Just some pointers: To get great dribbling pics, time the dribble and try to get the shot when they are at the top of their dribble sequence. If you take it in the middle or at the bottom, you will likely get blur or a seemingly flat ball if it is on the ground when you push the shutter.<br>

~Hope this helps, from one amateur to another:)</p>

<p>

<p>All,</p>

<p>Thank you for all the great advice. I have been reading your posts with great interest and I think I am going to have to invest in two more lenses. I don't know that flash is against the rules per se, but I do think that it would be frowned upon heavily. Even though the young players probably wouldn't mind, I think their parents might.</p>

<p>Cory thanks for the info on DOF. That's an angle I didn't consider and will try to incorporate into my photography from now on.</p>

<p>So, I think I am going to pick up a copy of the 50mm f/1.8 so often suggested in this thread. It should work nicely on the close end of the court. But I am torn on what to do for the other. Should I stay with Canon? Then my choices are EF-S 17-55 f/2.8 vs EF 24-70 f/2.8? Or save a few $ and go with a third party lens. It seems to be a classic dilemma on the photo.net website. At the moment I'm inclined to stay with Canon.</p>

<p>Thanks again for the help.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

</p>

Dave,

 

Definitely pick up an EF 50mm f/1.8 II because it's dirt cheap and will give you the speed you need to

get those indoor shots. And I'd personally hold off on buying anything else until you shoot a few games

with the Nifty Fifty and your existing 70-200mm to get a feel for fast glass.

 

As far as your 17-55 vs. 24-70 dilemma, it's a no-brainer if you plan on sticking with Canon glass:

 

* Go with the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM if you plan on sticking with your 50D crop body for a while.

The IS (Image Stabilization) won't freeze motion but will give you a sharper image at slower shutter

speeds.

 

* Go with the EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM if you plan on dropping a few thousand dollars on a full frame

body in the next year or two or if you plan on shooting in a downpour or sandstorm. You'll lose the IS

but you'll gain the weatherproofing of the pro L glass.

 

Also note that the 24-70 is a half pound heavier than the 17-55.

<p>I use the Sigma brand and LOVE them, plus they are half the price...also can get them pretty cheap at Photo4less.</p>

<p>Dave,<br>

Everyone has covered the ISO, f-stop, shutter speed etc., etc.. But I have a question.<br>

Which AF Focus mode on your 50 D are you using? If not already there, check to assure that you are in the "A1 Servo AF." I was not able to view your sample images, but this thought crossed my mind. I had some similiar instances in the past and found that I had missed choosing the correct AF mode.</p>

 

<p>All,</p>

<p>Thanks again for the great advice. We have a game tonight in a very small gym. So, I am going to try shooting with my 70-200, in Manual mode, f/3.2, 1/500, ISO 3200, Servo AF (I had AF set to one shot). This will be my first time shooting in Manual mode. It should be fun. <br>

I do have a couple of follow up questions to the above posts above:<br>

In Sean's post he says the IS (Image Stabilization) won't freeze motion on the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM. Why is that?<br>

How do I meter in the gym with just the camera? I don't own a light meter.<br>

Does using the 24-70 on the APS-C sensor detract from the wideness of the lens? <br>

Thanks again to all for sharing your knowledge and advice.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

<p>Dave,<br>

I see no one has responded as of yet, so I will make an effort to try and answer some of your questions.<br>

First of all, how did the shot's from last nights game come out?</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"In Sean's post he says the IS (Image Stabilization) won't freeze motion on the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM. Why is that?"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>IS does not "freeze motion" on any lens(es). IS is simply gyro's in the lens to help in holding or panning to "steady" your hold on the equipment in "Hand Held" situations. In turn, it can allow you to get shots at slower shutter speeds or smaller apertures to allow more light to reach the film (or sensor in digital equipment). <br>

On my 100-400 IS in your shooting situation I would set my IS to Mode 2, which is for "continuous shots of a moving subject," or "tracking an erratically moving subject."<br>

I would guess it would be the same for your 70-200mm. (check your User's manual for your lens.)</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"How do I meter in the gym with just the camera? I don't own a light meter."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You should'nt need a separate light meter, trust the one built into your 50D. But you can get a "general idea" of the lighting by setting your prefferred shutter speed/f-stop and pointing at the "probable" shot locations and holding the shutter button in the "half-way" position. Look in the viewfinder and if the metering bar shows the lighted vertical arrow flashing to either the -2 or +2 then you will not get a correct exposure. If the "vertical arrow" is not flashing, then you will get an exposure that is within an f-stop or so. The "vertical arrow" in the center position is where the onboard light meter feels is the optimium exposure. If either the f-stop you have choosen (i.e., f5.6) or the shutter speed (i.e., 250) is blinking then the exposure is incorrect and you should adjust one or the other until it quits blinking.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"Does using the 24-70 on the APS-C sensor detract from the wideness of the lens?"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes, any lens(es) mounted to the 50D with the APS-C (Small Sensor) Sensor will have a 1.6 crop factor. Example; your 24-70 actually becomes a 38mm-112mm lens. The 24-70mm designation is comparable to a film camera or a "Full Sensor" digital such as the 5D.<br>

"Back in the day," the 50mm lens(es) were considered the "normal" lens in that it was considered to give the same focal length as the "eye" or what you see.<br>

<strong><em>Here are some thoughts that have crossed my mind in my experience's with my EF100-400mm F4.5-5.6L IS. </em></strong>I have never shot with the 70-200 such as yours, but I expect the IS functions of my 100-400mm would be similiar. I do have the 100mm Macro f2.8L IS with the more "advanced" IS, but have only used it a couple of times at this point, (My latest and greatest lens!) and I don't think your lens(es) would have the newer IS.<br>

Double check all the Lens switches. ie., as stupid as it sounds, "I have done it!," make sure it is switched to "AF" and not "MF" unless you want to bypass the Autofocus. (I personally will set mine to "MF" when removing my lens(es) from the Camera body.) Select the correct shooting range, either the 1.8m to infinity or the 6.5m to infinity. <br>

When shooting at an f-stop of less than 8.0, I do not get full advantage of the AF features, and especially with the 1.4X extender. And "ditto" for Flash use.<br>

Make certain that your IS is switched to "On," and is in the correct mode (Mode 1 or 2) for the type of shooting you are doing.<br>

With all that said . . . if it were me, ("And there are certainly better qualified than me here on Photo.net!") I would probably initially set my camera up in "TV" or Shutter priority @ 250 and adjust accordingly from there.<br>

On occasion, and until I got familiar with the Camera Body, Lens(es), IS, etc., etc.. I would take a few shots with the "Sports Auto Setting, or the "defaulted" "CA" or "P" modes, then check the histogram at a later point to get a better idea of where you "need to be close to" for fully manual settings and exposures. In the meantime . . . you should get some very acceptable shots and should not get frustrated with your new equipment.<br>

Study your "User's Manuals" and ask questions here as you have done!<br>

Happy Shooting,<br>

Jim J.</p>

 

<p>Hello All,</p>

<p>Thanks again for all of the help. I shot at the game Friday night and the pictures came out great. I had to set the speed at 1/250s or they just came out too dark. I'll have to work on composure next. I have a lot of shots with cut off heads, etc. But I think the settings <br>

Jim, thanks for the tip on the IS mode 2. I will test it out at next weeks game.</p>

<p>Thanks again,<br>

Dave</p>

<p> </p>