Amazon vs. B&H Camera Return Policy

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<p >I would like to try the new Panasonic DMC-ZS3 but the reviews seem to be the usual "you've just got to try it for yourself" opinion. Naturally I want the option to return and there really are only two online sellers to consider either Amazon or B&H. I think Amazon is one of the most reliable online sellers for anything. I've never ordered from B&H although I've heard stories about returns. </p>

<p >Can anyone tell me what EXACTLY (unsaid fine print) are B&H or Amazon's camera return policy? I'm only talking about their camera return policy, not their camera lens return policy, not the return policy of the merchants who sell through Amazon. I know Amazon's official return policy says this:</p>

<p > Camera & Photo items purchased from Amazon.com are easily returned to Amazon.com within 30 days of receipt of shipment via our online <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/css/returns/homepage.html">Returns Center</a>. These items must be in new condition with original packaging and accessories. </p>

<p >But after I bought a Fuji FinePix F200EXR about three months ago - and realized that the highly touted camera is utterly worthless for lowlight subjects that actually move (you know like people or things that require at least a 1/60 shutter speed) - I returned the camera. </p>

<p >However, as I was made to understand at the time, there are stipulations that they don't tell you in advance. Like you can return the unwanted (not defective) camera but they will only refund something like 50% of the original cost. Fair given the fact that they want to avoid every clown who would buy equipment just so they could use it for a week and return it. The other option they offer is to re-sell the camera yourself through Amazon's used marketplace - which is what I ended up doing. </p>

<p > My Fuji was essentially a brand new camera but I gave what I thought was the necessary 15% discount and then Amazon charges you a marketplace fee (about 8%), and although Amazon does provide about $5-6 for US Post shipping, it does not include insurance. In my case, the buyer unfortunately had to live in Florida while I live in LA. If I had insured the Fuji for its entire $375 worth, the shipping would have been $16. I settled for the standard UPS $100 insurance for a $12 shipping cost. My total loss was about $85 and the buyer didn't even bother to write me a positive seller review. Keep in mind I also gave the buyer the spare battery that cost me about $15. So actually I lost $100. </p>

<p >Does anyone know anything different about Amazon's camera return policy? Did I misunderstand something?</p>

<p >Thanks.</p>

<p >P.S. If you have to sell barely used, like-new cameras, try craigslist first. </p>

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<p>Just my opinion, but I NEVER buy anything of value, thinking that a return is likely (other than for defect). Stores, rightfully, make the proccess a pain almopst universally.</p>

<p>Go to camera stores and compare, fiddle. You can even rent one for a weekend.</p>

<p>I'm not perfect, but I have never had buyer's remorse. Now if it has a defect, that's a didfferenty story.</p>

<p>Probably easy for me to say since I live near a very large city with lots of camera stores, but the underlying theme here seems almost to be that stores might choose to sell on a "sale or return" basis. I can understand their reluctance to commit to doing that on a blanket basis given that they are effectively turning new stock into used stock in an instant, and for reasons that may not be even remotely their fault. I guess I don't see why retailers should carry that cost, and think its probably commercially unsustainable unless they're prepared to sell the returns as new, which IMO they should not if the item has been used. Further if I buy a new item, I don't want the price I pay to be inflated by the retailers need to factor in a 25% probability that the item's coming back.</p>

<p>If you live in LA which has camera stores. I'd suggest the right way to do it is to go see and handle the items you're interested in and then buy with confidence. If you vote for the convenience of home delivery without having seen and handled, then if you use the item I think that you should accept that its reasonable (more than that, its right) that you carry the risk. If the item is damaged on receipt, or not as stated, or faulty, or you simply decide whilst the item is re-saleable as new that it isn't for you, thats different. Indeed in the UK we have "Distance Selling" regulations that cover the right to return. </p>

<p>B&H return policy is stated pretty clearly here</p>

<p><a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/HelpCenter/ReturnExchange.jsp">http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/HelpCenter/ReturnExchange.jsp</a> </p>

<p>I'd have a lot more sympathy for someone who lives way out in the country and has no realistic alternative than to buy sight unseen. Maybe this is why some outlets choose not to fully disclose their policy for returns that frankly they aren't obliged to accept at all. Maybe they want space to treat every case on its merits, and if so, I don't think that would be wrong. </p>

<p>I agree with the comments above. At the same time, Amazon's return policy, as I read it, seems to allow the return of opened items within 30 days of purchase for a full refund unless the item shows "obvious signs of use." There are some specific categories of items for which only partial refunds will be granted, but cameras are not among them. B&H's refund policy clearly contemplates the return of items that have been opened, tried, and found wanting. Amazon's seems to as well, though it's certainly far more vague. Maybe there's a bit of a lesson here about not buying vegetables at the butcher's shop.</p>

<p>Given the wording of Amazon's policy, it seems to me that offering no more than 50% of purchase price is unwarranted so long as the item didn't show signs of use and was returned within 30 days. Amazon's policy should be far more explicit than it is if this is their practice.</p>

<p>I agree with David. Living in LA, you've got Samy's and Calumet as very fine stores, as well as many other places where you can try a point-and-shoot.</p>

<p><em>I've never ordered from B&H although I've heard stories about returns.</em> What kind of stories have you heard? To put that out there is unfair. Many of us on photo.net have been well-served by B&H.</p>

<p>Steve, you might need to re-think how you are thinking about things. If you bought a camera that doesn't do what you do, perhaps more research into the capabilities of the camera is needed rather than more information on return policies. Rather than asking about return policies via hearsay (like this forum) you need to fully explore the issue with the store itself if you are to know "EXACTLY" what their policy is. If you read a LA newspaper you will already know that Samy's is offering good deals right now. Check out their ads. There are other places, like Canoga Cameras that has decent prices... and like Samy's has a walk-in store with knowledgable sellers. Also, you might do yourself some benefit by not refering to the cost of disposing of your unwanted camera as a "loss"; that was the cost-of-doing-business. Don't let it eat at you. In the future consider that it might be worth spending a bit more money by doing your shopping locally where you can try out the gear and talk to a knowledable sales staff rather than buying blind and trying to sell to recoup your cost. That just doesn't work... as you have proven to yourself. Good luck!</p>

<p>[[However, as I was made to understand at the time, there are stipulations that they don't tell you in advance. Like you can return the unwanted (not defective) camera but they will only refund something like 50% of the original cost.]]</p>

<p>How was this communicated to you?</p>

<p>I am a photo retailer. If you kept the camera for 3 months and used it, it is a used camera. Would I be annoyed if I bought it as a new camera and found signs of wear. I have never bought anything from Amazon, so I do not know their return policy, but if as you say they give a 50% refund, that is because they are reselling it as the used camera it is. The issue of returning used cameras as new is of great importance to retailers. Their reputation is at stake if they resell a used returned camera as new. At my store (Bruce's Field Camera Store) we originally did not accept returns. Period. That was because I know so many people who buy something at B&H, use it for a week, and return it, getting a free rental. I have revised the policy giving the buyer 3 days to ship the item back if it is unwanted. Of course the camera and packing/instructions have to be in perfect condition. On used items I am now allowing a week, because they are used anyway. If you want a rental, you should pay for a rental. If you need three months to evaluate a piece of equipment, which is not unusual, you bought it. Don't like it, resell it. These kind of policies protect the new camera buyer, who since he is buying a new camera ,should get one.</p>

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<p>Camera & Photo items purchased from Amazon.com are easily returned to Amazon.com within 30 days [...] But after I bought a Fuji FinePix F200EXR about three months ago [...]</p>

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<p>Do you mean that you RETURNED the item to Amazon after you had had it for three months? Or that you had a problem 3 months ago whereby Amazon would not accept your return for a full refund within the stated 30-day limit?</p>

<p>I frequently buy items from Amazon that I have never seen, in the expectation that I will like them. Very occasionally, I return them within the 30-day inspection period (in as-new condition), and Amazon has <strong>never </strong> objected. In my case, Amazon's liberal 30-day return policy has been very profitable for Amazon because it has made me comfortable buying without examining the goods. I suspect this is true in most cases and that this is why they have such a policy.</p>

 

<blockquote><em>I've never ordered from B&H although I've heard stories about returns.</em> What kind of stories have you heard? To put that out there is unfair. Many of us on photo.net have been well-served by B&H.</blockquote>

<p>Thank you. B&H endeavors at all times to be customer-focused and I do not believe you will find anyone here complaining about our return policy or the elastic manner with which we enforce its provisions.</p>

<blockquote>That was because I know so many people who buy something at B&H, use it for a week, and return it, getting a free rental.</blockquote>

<p>We've gone around the dance floor on this stuff before, Bruce. You're in no position to comment on our policies or practices being an acknowledged competitor. Suffice it to say we're viigilant about abuse of our return policy. Henry Posner <br /> <strong>B&H Photo-Video</strong></p>

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<p>BH is the best hands down. I purchased not too long ago a canon 5dmkII and a canon xh-a1. One for video the other for pictures. After trying out the 5dmkii video, I decided to return the xh-a1. No questions asked when I called(i live in LA) just asked what was wrong told them I did not like it, got an rma, shipped ups 5-7 days, they received in 5 days, I was fully credited. Adorama asked many questions when I purchased a canon 30D(returned because I found no real upgrade to my 20D) a few years back and took about a week to credit and they wanted to charge me open box, it took a couple of phone calls and many hours of waiting to speak with someone else, finally got them to fully credit me. Since then, they have not seen a single penny from me and BH has pleased with many L lenses I have bought and other stuff which I would say is considerably good business. Too bad for Adorama because sometimes I feel like purchasing from them(they had a 5dmkii kit in stock once, nah, waited and purchased from BH better).</p>

<p>I been buying stuff online since the Gay Nineties so I add my two cents....Amazon has a fair <strong>UPFRONT </strong> return policy I have used infrequently. No fine print or ambiguity unless you can demonstrate that.... So does B and H. And so does J and R. All three are fair in offering a reasonable trial period. At least a few weeks, or a month. I keep all boxes and plastic bags and ties and cards and such as required.... And since each will have to inspect the item, they bear the cost of this overhead. Try to get that from a mall store. There are minor admin differences I notice in how each of the three handles returns. Time period, method of return perhaps, and if something is left out .I would expect a small reduction in the refund. No flat restocking fees. Which I can understand in a way, but find distasteful as most consumers do. You can tell I am not in retail.</p>

<p>Tough times for online retailers considering small margins and high shipping/insurance costs and inevitable damage in transit losses. Given the constraints I compliment <strong>all</strong> mentioned on their web sites and their customer service. they try.. In short, I feel like I have never been screwed over by Amazon, B and H, or J and R. (I find Amazon's customer reviews helpful on appliances, but on cameras, I use other sources. )</p>

<p>Prices are usually in the ball park. I have only used Adorama a bit. I am not as keen on its web site, not quite as usable for me as the others. B and H incidetally publishes magnificent catalogs...great bathroom wish list reading:-) You needed a three months trial....I believe so, yet that is pushing it a bit in this techno warp drive world. gs</p>

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<p>B and H incidetally publishes magnificent catalogs...great bathroom wish list reading:-)</p>

 

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<p>YOU CAN SAY THAT AGAIN! :)</p>

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<p >As I said earlier, a deduction for returned cameras is understandable - just state your policy clearly in advance. That is not an unreasonable request. I bought that Fuji in good faith with every intention of keeping that camera. Just because it didn't work out doesn't mean I deserve to pay. If I had bought it from B&H, I would have received a full refund. </p>

<p >On top of the fact that my cost of living is considerably higher than someone who lives in the country, it is not fair to have a gray area double standard and penalize me with the extra deduction because I live in a big city. Why do you think I buy online (no tax, free shipping, maybe cheaper prices too). I'm trying to save money like the next guy. Not everyone who lives in LA is wealthy.</p>

<p >But the point I was trying to make is that Amazon's policy simply states that they will accept a return in 30 days provided the camera is in new condition. That gives the impression of a foolproof guarantee, love it or return it, even if you didn't or couldn't conduct proper research. No different from the kind of full refund return policy at a large electronics chain store. The fact is that Amazon will accept your return hassle free (but if I remember correctly they will keep half of the cost). </p>

<p >Amazon, like many other online retailers, requires that you log into your account and file for an Return Merchandise Authorization (RMA). This is when they told me about the camera return deduction, this is when they offered me the option of selling the camera on their used marketplace. I can't remember if there's no going back to a return once you have chosen the option to sell. I don't know if they have a special stipulation about Fuji cameras. </p>

<p >I called Amazon about their camera return policy today and I felt like their answer was a little unsure but I was told the "restocking fee", as they called it, would not be any higher than 20% for a camera. Of course it's possible there are other deductions on top of the so called restocking fee because, quite frankly, I don't recall my Fuji camera as having a mere 20% deduction in total. By the way, don't worry, from my experience I've learned that Amazon thankfully does not "restock" opened cameras for new resale. </p>

<p >I should add that all other online retailers that I've encountered state clearly in their return policies that they will deduct a restocking fee. At the very least I feel I am informing consumers about Amazon's true camera return policy and their hidden larger than usual deduction or "restocking fee."</p>

<p >If B&H does in fact offer a full refund, then all honest consumers should give them all the credit in the world given how much that policy can be abused. And since that policy can be abused, I'm genuinely surprised that any non-chain store would not have problems with people trying to return high end merchandise from online purchases. I guess they do large business or enough business with honest customers. The few B&H stories that I read were on places like Bizrate and the stories seemed to center around returns. I think I do recall reading about a helpful customer service manager who would try and solve your problem. The vast majority of comments I've read about B&H are positive but I'm focusing on their return policy which you may or may not have any experience with. And I have every right to question as you have the right to defend. </p>

<p >Until the Fuji, I had never bought a point and shoot in my life. I had only used SLR's and usually higher end Nikons. I've never had to second guess an SLR purchase. Obviously buying at least a prosumer level Nikon/Canon is different from wading through the unknown terrain of point and shoots. Like with other diehard SLR users, I only recently started to consider point and shoots due to all the features they offer these days. A soon to occur special event usually pushes me into considering a point and shoot. Other than for special circumstances, I don't like point and shoots and I realize point and shoot fans are a different breed with different interests. Apparently they're not at all interested in shooting a band onstage even though the better point and shoots seem tailor made for live music events. Especially given the stereo mic, 12x zoom, HD zoom capabilities of the DMC-ZS3. </p>

<p >As long as you CAN return a camera for a presumed full refund, I see no reason why a camera is any different from any other expensive item that you later decided to return for whatever reason. Lastly, if I could find a store that would rent out point and shoots, that would be handy indeed. </p>

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<p>"But the point I was trying to make is that Amazon's policy simply states that they will accept a return in 30 days provided the camera is in new condition."</p>

<p>I suppose you just proved that this is too good to be true.. like almost all other "too good to be true" offers. Hope you do better next time.</p>

<p>and, seriously... you might want to consider the good buys at Samy's which even with the stupidly-high LA County sales tax might be a better investment in terms of reducing aggravation!</p>

<p>Steve. You are being highly selective in what you say about Amazon.com and as a result you are misleading yourself and others that might read this. Amazon's policy on refunds is very clearly outlined on their website and easily accessible to all prior to purchase. They do not say simply that they "will accept a return for full refund in 30 days provided the camera is in new condition".<br>

What they actually say is</p>

 

<h2><em>"Returns Policy Overview</em></h2>

<p><em>You may return new, unopened items sold and fulfilled by Amazon.com within 30 days of delivery for a full refund. Items should be returned in their original product packaging. We'll also pay the return shipping costs if the return is a result of our error."</em><br>

<em></em><br>

Do you see those words "new" and "unopened"? You opened the product and used it. You do not have any basis to expect a full refund or argue that you have been hard done by without it. Their t&c are plainly accessible on their site. </p>

<p>Looking now at the amount of refund offered, their policy is described in overview as follows, again plainly accessible before you bought. </p>

 

<h2><em>"Partial Refunds</em></h2>

<p><em>Partial Refunds will be issued for the following items:</em></p>

<ul>

<li><em>Most items that are returned more than 30 days after delivery </em></li>

<li><em>Any item that has obvious signs of use </em></li>

<li><em>Any opened laptop or desktop computer. A 15% restocking fee will apply </em></li>

<li><em>Any CD, DVD, VHS tape, software, video game, cassette tape, or vinyl record that has been opened/taken out of its plastic wrap. (If you discover that the item is defective after the package is opened, a full refund or replacement will still be granted) </em></li>

<li><em>Any item not returned in the condition it was received"</em></li>

</ul>

<p>Again- you opened the product and you used it. It may well have been clear that you used it. </p>

<p>Look also at the following, clearly stated in their t&c, and not as you indicate sprung on you without warning after the event.</p>

<p><em><strong>"Partial refunds:</strong> Issued for items that do not completely meet our returns guidelines. Examples: </em></p>

<ul>

<li><em>Any unopened media item or non-media item in original condition that is returned more than 30 days after delivery: 80% of item's price. </em></li>

<li><em>Any book that has obvious signs of use: 50 percent of item's price. </em></li>

<li><em>Any CD, DVD, VHS tape, software, video game, cassette tape, or vinyl record that has been opened (taken out of its plastic wrap): 50 percent of item's price. </em></li>

<li><em>Any item that is not in its original condition, is damaged, or is missing parts for reasons not due to our error: up to 50 percent of item's price."</em></li>

</ul>

<p>You seem to be having difficulty grasping that something that cost you money can be your fault. You failed to read the t&c before the event, or indeed after the event, and are now blaming Amazon for behaving exactly as per their stated terms. </p>

<p>You say in your first post</p>

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<p>given the fact that they want to avoid every clown who would buy equipment just so they could use it for a week and return it.</p>

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<p>What in your actual behaviour (as against your original intent) distinguishes you from this? The possibility that other companies might have different returns policies from Amazon is not relevent to whether they treated you unfairly, or sprung surprises on you. </p>

<p>Something's off here. From the Help menu at amazon.com, this time around I found the following policy regarding the return of cameras:</p>

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<p><strong ><em>Returning Camera & Photo Items</em> <em> </em> </strong><br>

<em>Camera & Photo items purchased from Amazon.com, including items from the Target at Amazon.com store, are easily returned to Amazon.com within 30 days of receipt of shipment via our online <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/css/returns/homepage.html">Returns Center</a> . These items must be in new condition with original packaging and accessories.</em></p>

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<p>Either the people at amazon are seriously misinformed about their own policies, or something about this transaction took it out of the standard return policy [i.e., beyond 30 days of receipt, without some of the paperwork or packaging, etc]. If, on the other hand, the camera was in new condition, with all packaging and paperwork, and the return was within 30 days of receipt, you should probably be complaining to someone up the chain at amazon.</p>

 

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<p>At the very least I feel I am informing consumers about Amazon's true camera return policy and their hidden larger than usual deduction or "restocking fee."</p>

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<p>I don't get it yet..Sounds, as a disinterested party, like you don't <strong>truly</strong> know what you are talking about, Steve, <strong>OR </strong> you are representing just a piece of the whole transaction. Seems like your protest could have been more appropriately timed and directed and documented ( did you put anything on paper and get a reply to share w the troops?) Better now to write a letter to Amazon now that this is past tense with a step by step date based account of your transactions with recommendations to Amazon and not to the community. Sorry if I offend with my bluntness.</p>

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<p><!--StartFragment--><br /> David, you list Amazon's GENERAL policy overview and if you can read you will notice that it does not mention cameras at all. You entirely avoided their specific camera return policy because it obviously didn't occur to you to look for such a thing. As you can see, Joseph had to post it for you. "These items must be in new condition with original packaging and accessories." Note that it says "new condition" and not "new and unopened." Please don't post again unless you have an informed comment.</p>

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<p>You say in your first post<br /> given the fact that they want to avoid every clown who would buy equipment just so they could use it for a week and return it.<br /> What in your actual behaviour (as against your original intent) distinguishes you from this? The possibility that other companies might have different returns policies from Amazon is not relevent to whether they treated you unfairly, or sprung surprises on you.</p>

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<p>You failed to make a distinction between a different return policy and a clearly stated return policy. The distinction is that other companies clearly state their return policy. I shouldn't have had to explain this.<br /> <br /> Everyone one else seems to have understood given the context of my original comment that a clown is someone who knowingly buys expensive equipment so they can "rent" it for a week or longer before returning it for a full refund. I'm guessing a restocking fee is simply a way of recouping some money before you resell an item for a discount - sounds reasonable. I forgot how gigantic B&H really is and obviously they can afford the returns and I'm sure they're not losing any money. Other than that one Fuji camera, which I returned after one day of use, I have never returned any expensive electronic equipment in my life although once I had to exchange a TV that had a crack in its case.<br /> <br /> Gerry, sorry if I didn't document the entire affair for your approval but I get your point. Maybe I should have tried to fight the power but then again I'm sure it would've taken more than a couple letters and if time is money….<br /> <br /> The original purpose of my post was to discover if B&H had any similar hidden return policy. I'm not asking anyone to solve my problems. As for my Amazon comments, I thought I was informing people but obviously some people resent this kind of information for whatever reason. But at least Samy's camera salesmen appreciate my post.</p>

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<p >I am having nightmares with Amazon UK. I ordered 13000,00 worth of equipment from Amazon UK two Nikon cameras D3x + D3s two Nikon Lines and a graphic board everything come on the 03.01.2010, everything was OK but when I opened the D3x Box I found an old broken camera, so I sent it back as registered post and told the I wanted a replacement. I sent Amazon a lot of emails complaining and asking when my replacement would be shipped only to receive generated emails, so I got on the phone managed to get through to management replacement services and they send me an Email every day.</p>

<p > </p>

<p > Dear Mr Hudson</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Further to your previous correspondence, with my colleague Leonard, please be assured that we are still working on resolving the issue of the refund.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >As stated previously this has been escalated to Senior Management and I shall provide a further update on 2nd March.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Thank you for your continued patience and understanding in this matter.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Warmest regards</p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Jasbir G</p>

<p >Amazon.co.uk</p>

<p >We strive to be Earth's Most Customer-Centric Company. Your feedback helps us build it. </p>

<p >============================== </p>

<p > </p>

<p >But nothings happening, I still do not now if I am getting a replacement or not or how long it will take, I just get the same old thing, “we are very sorry and we are looking into the situation” and it is now 03.02.2010 four weeks later and its driving me really mad, and it look like I will have to take legal action, I am living in Germany at the moment and need a good lawyer in the UK so if anyone can help me in any way I would be very grateful indeed.</p>

<p > </p>

<p ><a href="mailto:hudsonandrew@web.de">hudsonandrew@web.de</a></p>

<p > </p>

<p >Thank you all Andrew </p>

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