New to large format...help!

<p>Hey everyone! I'm going to ask a somewhat generalized question regarding Large format camera's. I'm not new to photography. I have plenty of working experience with 35mm film and now digital SLR's. In fact I work exclusively with the 35mm format. Anyway this is not a whats better type of question. When it comes to shooting events or reportage I wouldn't trade it for the world but now I would like to expand my horizon. My personal interest outside of shooting people is Architecture and Landscape... when time allows. I have been relying on my D300 for such work but honestly I'm less than impressed. I have even considered stepping up to a FF and getting some Tilt shifts but the cost is outrages and still I think it would not match the quality of a 4x5 or 5x7. Eventually my goal is to display and sell my work. I want to be able to print fairly large, so quality is of great importance. However, I'm concerned that I will not alway's be able to find film or the labs to take on such work. Also, I'm not quite sure where to start. How much do I need to invest. From what I have read, you can get some used equipment pretty cheap, at least compared to the alternative. Any thoughts or input would be appreciated.</p>

<p>If you are concerned with the availability of film, stick with 4x5. A lot of people shoot it and there are bound to be sources for it for many years. As far as an equipment list goes, I might be considered biased because I sell such things. This is what I recommend as a quality 4x5 outfit. Ebony RW45 in mahogany. This is a very high quality camera good for general use. 6 Fidelity or similar filmholders. A tripod big enough for 4x5. My preference is Gitzo. A loupe, unless you are nearsighted, for scrutinizing the ground glass. Film. A cable release. A lens. All purpose is a 150mm, wide angle for landscapes is a 90mm, longer for portraits, 210mm. A technika type lensboard. A dark colored shirt may be used as a darkcloth. There will be a temptation to get a cheap vintage camera such as a Graphic. They are OK but very limited, the lenses on them have a vintage look, and if you are serious about photography you will probably end up selling it and getting a good camera later. </p>

<p>Since this is your first shot at large format, I would recommend something less expensive than an Ebony (which is a wonderful machine). You should get your feet wet with a Graflex of some time. The one with the most movements is the Super Graphic. If you shop around, you should be able to get a Super Graphic with a lens for under $300. The Super Graphic is a metal-bodied 4x5 press camera with a built-in rangefinder. It differs from the Crown Graphics and Speed Graphics in that it has tilt and swing movements which the older cameras didn't.<br>

The only other things you'll need are a cable release, film holders, and a steady tripod. The entire kit should cost you less than $500. The standard lens on the Super Graphic is a 135mm model, which I believe is the equivalent of a 35/40mm focal length in 35mm photography. You can also find a 90mm Graflex lens (commonly used on the Crown Graphic) which is somewhat wider. My kit contains a 90mm and a 210mm.<br>

If you decide you like large format, you can sell the Super Graphic for what you paid for it (if not more), and get yourself an Ebony or another nicer camera.</p>

<p>Don't waste your time and money.</p>

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<p>Don't waste your time and money.</p>

 

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<p>One persons "waste of time" may be another persons form of self-expression or passion. Imagine if someone had told Ansel Adams or Edward Weston, "Don't waste your time with the that big camera". Truly puzzling. But who even knows what the rather terse comment above meant. Is it "Don't waste your time with LF" or "Don't waste your time with the Super Graphic" or "Don't waste your time with the Ebony W45". Who knows, but it is comments like this why I rarely "waste my time" with this once great forum.</p>

<p>Don't listen to trolls like Bill -- LF photography is wonderful, and once you figure out the movements, you have capabilties (esp. for architecture and landscapes) that no FF dSLR has. 4x5 film will be around for a long time, and if you go B&W, you'll be independent of labs as well.<br>

Either a Speed Graphic or a (used) wooden field camera (e.g. Tachihara) is a great way to start. Once you know how to properly use movements, you'll probably find out that wide-angle lenses are not your most used lenses -- my 203 Ektar or 210 Apo-Sironar (depending on the kit) get a lot more use than either of my 90mm lenses. With that in mind, make sure you get lenses with plenty of coverage...<br>

Enjoy!</p>

<p>Don't forget that with the Speed / Crown Graphic, you are not limited to the lenses made for these cameras in the 1950's and 1960's. You can use any large format lens, as long as it fits the lensmount. I use Rodenstock Grandagon 6.8 90mm MC, Nikkor W 135mm and Rodenstock Sironar N 210mm lenses with my Crown Graphic. I turned the front standard of the camera around so I do not need to drop the bed to get forward tilt. A job done within 5 minutes and no need to take of the bellows.</p>

<p>I will second the vote for an Ebony RW45 -- a great camera; the Ebony is not inexpensive, but it is a good value (I was lucky enough to find one slightly used) -- and Gitzo tripods. My personal preference for lenses are a 135 and a 180 rather than a 150 and 210, but that is a quibble. A 90mm could be added as a wide angle, but for weight reasons I would recommned the f/8 lenses (f/6.8 in the case of the Rodenstock) instead of the f/4.5 lenses. You will also need a good tripod head. I use an Acratech, which is light and strong, but there are numerous choices. Do not forget film holders -- I like the Toyos, which I bought new a few years ago from Freestyle, but they have gone up since then. Used ones seem to be plentiful. You may also need a film changing tent, even if you have a place to change film at home, if you want to change holders in the field. <br />You are right about the quality. A few years ago I saw Robert Polidori's Chernobyl exhibition at Edwyn Houck galleries in New York. The prints were about 4 <em>feet</em> by 5 <em>feet</em> and stunning. I believe he used a 4x5 camera for those photos, although I know he sometimes shoots 5x7.</p>

<p>Roman,<br>

I agree with Jeff & Mike. Checkout used gear first. Check KEH you may be able to pick up some reasonably priced gear through them. See if you like LF before sinking some serious dough into an Ebony, or other high-end camera. <br>

If you really insist on "New", then look at Tachihara, or Shen-hao's. Another possiblity would be Chamonix. They have a 45n-1 currently in stock that is about 3 lbs. It will be replaced with the 45n-1 in about 8 to 10 weeks. The 45n-2 will reportedly be a bit heavier and cost about 10% more than the current model.</p>

<p>I have three 4x5 cameras I use: Sinar X (most of my studio work), a Toyo 45F (which I tend to use in the field for architectural or otherwise corrected images), and my main camera: an old Crown Graphic, that just keeps working and working. I've removed the shutter from the back, and don't worry about the finder. I use it like a field camera. 4x5 provides very gratifying results for me. You do need patience and drive to use a LF camera. They are very "intentional" and methodical cameras, and definitely not for the point and shoot crowd. Also, a good resource is Ansel Adams book, "The Camera". You should also commit to finding vendors whom you trust, such as Bruce Cahn. You can really be taken advantage of by people selling bad equipment, or people who just don't know what their selling or the condition of the equipment.</p>

<p>Another consideration the original poster mentions is processing. In the last 6 months I've lost the lab that used to process 4x5 for me. I'm getting material around - chemicals, containers and a tank to do my own B&W processing - I've processed 35mm before and from what I've read B&W 4x5 should be doable and economical. I'll think about color after getting more experience.<br>

I think I could lay in a pretty good supply of film and put it in the freezer, so I'd have enough for several years, so film supply isn't a concern to me, but how to get it processed may be.<br>

So, it might be worth considering how you'll get the film processed up front<br>

Are you planning on doing black and white or C41 or E6? - Black and white you may want to do yourself<br>

If not - Can you locate convenient processing?<br>

Will it be around for a while?</p>

<p> </p>

<p>With the 2500-series tanks from JOBO, doing B&W processing of 4x5 film is as easy as 135 or 120 film -- you just get a better workout as the tank for 6 sheets takes 45 oz. of liquids...</p>

<p>The old pre-zip code Calumets will work and are tanks (you can tell the old ones because the address is local postal codes for Chicago, not a zip code). They're cheap first bodies but have more moves than the Speed/Crown Graphics.</p>

<p>Like with any other camera system, put the money in lenses. Calumet NYC had new lens plates for the beast in the early 2000s, probably still has them. Make sure everything moves and that the bellows are light tight.</p>

 

<p><strong>"I'm concerned that I will not alway's be able to find film or the labs to take on such work."</strong></p>

<p>I would not be concerned with getting film. There are plenty of users of large format film to support supply for a long time. <br>

It sounds like you have your 35mm work processed at a lab. I doubt you will find that practical for large format. Medium format may be a better alternative if outside labs are to be utilized.</p>

<p>Bruce, Should have asked much sooner but I guess I was just running to and fro to realize it but your recommendation: "a quality 4x5 outfit. Ebony RW45 in mahogany"<br>

I'm assuming that this will handle Roman's intended uses: Architecture & landscapes.<br>

I'm in the same boat, same interests. As a newbie, I have enough info to be dangerous. Although I'm leaning towards the Chamonix, I like to keep my options open. From what I know of the RW45, I'm assuming that it should be more than adequate to handle the demands for Architecture. Ditto for landscape work since the number of movements would be less demanding.<br>

As a former string player having owned and seen beautifully worked Ebony, I can just imagine what one of these cameras would look like. Would you need a bag bellows for a 75mm lens, or would the normal bellows suffice?<br>

Could you elaborate a bit more? Thanks.</p>

<p>Don't listen to trolls like Bill. The quality you'll be able to obtain on a 40" print will equal what he can achieve on a 10" print from the Olympus he uses. </p>

<p>I went with a used Linhof monorail to start. Found some used film holders on Ebay. Picked up a couple of lenses on Ebay (75 and 150) and loved it all so much that I opted for a 4x5 Shen Hao as well. There is nothing like having a grain free 32x40….with detail you can crawl in to….and tonality in spades. </p>

<p>Processing black and white film is easy and inexpensive. I started processing sheet film with trays, which worked well, but was messy. I ended up getting a Jobo 2523 drum which can hold 6 sheets of 4x5 sheet film (as well as being useful for 35mm and 120/220 film).<br>

I don't often shoot color, as it's rather expensive, but I am putting together an E6 processing kit so I can develop slide film.</p>

<p>I have a 6x9cm Linhof Tecknica,with which I shoot both roll film & 6x9 sheet film. The camera is an engineering master piece, some what heavy & sheet film is difficult to source, for 6x9 format. The 4x5 Tecknica is almost exactly the same, with film & lenses readly available. Yes you can obtain ALMOST the same quality using 35mm, BUT you need excellent lenses a sturdy tripod a cable release & if your slr has mirror lock-up, use it. Then comes the processing, with large format it is a LOT easier to obtain beautiful prints that you fall into. If you can, get a hold of one of Roger Hicks books, he explains in laymans terms the different formats, advantages & diadvantages, lens resolution, circle of confusion, film resolution etc. . You will find, that you will shoot a lot less, but that you will think more about what you are trying to photograph. Jump in the waters fine & very relaxing.</p>

<p>Bought a Cambo SCII in excellent condition from Keh for $210.00. Love it. Some would recommend the most expensive ones. But, not everyone has that kind of money to spend. The Graphic is good. But, the Cambo, while heavier, has a lot more movements.</p>

<p>I have a several 4x5 cameras I've picked up over the years: a Calumet monorail, a Bender monorail (which is amazingly light in weight), a B&J flat bed, several Graflex Speed Graphics and a Graflex Super Graphic, and several Graflex SLR's. In order of use (mostly for landscapes, with a few weddings and portraits thrown in) from most used to least used, it goes like this (for me): Super Graphic; Graflex RB Auto; Graflex Super D; B&J; all the rest very little. I like the self-casing feature of the Graflexes, and the fact that you can hand-hold them for most shots. I would do a lot less large format photography if I needed to bring a tripod along for every shot.</p>

<p>I suppose in some ways i like cameras better than shooting, but i still shoot a nominal amount of 4x5 when i can. Ever since my last box of polaroid 55 dried up i have shot less (one of my all time favorite films)... I have a little bit of each also; A Peter Gowland Pocket View for the "serious" stuff, a speed graphic with a vintage 1903 Eastman Kodak lens for the pictorial stuff, a Korona 5x7 which i used to contact print from using cyanotypes and such, and a rickety old (yet light-tight) Burke and James 8x10. I just picked up my dream camera however, but have yet to put a sheet of film through it (rainy here for a couple weeks now) a full on hand-held 4x5 box camera! http://www.camerapedia.org/wiki/Cyclone_Jr._and_Cyclone_Sr. (ok, I can't get that link working correctly but if you add the period at the end of the link, it does come up, for some reason the period will not activate, but it is part of the address... dumb internet). I have been on the prowl for one of these for a decade, and finally found one down the street from where i work... can't wait to try it out!<br /> Sure, you could buy the latest greatest digital full frame and a tilt shift lens, but you'll be replacing the camera in 2 or 3 years. I've had that Gowland for 22 years now, and it still holds up wonderfully. <br /> There are some good points up there, and luckily large format has gotten a little more affordable over the years so you can replace a camera fairly cheaply if it doesn't do what you want it to, and unlike the digital novelties, most of the accessories and do dads work on every camera out there, lenses, holders, cable releases, etc.</p>

<p>you don't need something that is over the top ...<br>

for landscapes and architectural work you need a basic 4x5 monorail<br />get an old graphic view II or if you can find one, an older toyo filed view ( is like a speed graphic but with more movements ).</p>

<p>good luck!</p>