A Wista DX to learn on or not?

<p>I am purchasing a 4x5 camera with which to learn Large Format photography, shooting primarily landscape images. It is a used Wista DX, which judging by the photo the salesman emailed me, is the rosewood model. It is listed in 9+ condition, and is $595 and includes a Copal 1 lensboard (I already have a Fujinon-W 180 5.6) and also comes with a fresnel screen. My dilemma is this:</p>

<p>a) For approx. $50 more dollars I can get a new Shen Hao HZX 4X5-IIA which seems to offer more movements, and the option of using bag bellows. The Wista DX has 12" of bellows extension and the Shen Hao 14". On a more superficial level, images of both the Shen Hao and Wista DX, and from seeing the DX in person at B&H, the Wista looks to be slightly better made with a nicer looking finish to the wood (Reminds me of the Wisner Traditional that I really want). The Shen Hao, I think has synthetic cloth bellows and the Wista leather, as far as I know. Two things I don't care for on the Shen Hao are the bellows material and the black metal hardware. The Shen may be more versatile, but according to largeformatphotography.info's 4x5 roundup, the Wista DX is more rigid. </p>

<p>b) The other camera, a Tachihara 45GF, is in my price range, but would take a bit of my budget for lenses, film holders, loupe, etc. I originally thought the cherrywood and brass were a bit much, but it has grown on me. It is actually quite beautiful. From what I've read, it seems to offer less movements of the three. The review by Q.-Tuan Luong of the Tachihara, talks about it's use of lenses that are quite wide. Jim at Midwest Photo Exchange put 75mm as the probable limit for the Wista. Again, I will probably start with a Grandagon-N 90 6.8 or a Super-Angulon 75/5.6, if possible. </p>

<p>I just wanted to ask the people who really know, and have used these or similar 4x5 cameras. My original plan was to find the best, least expensive quality body that would be good to learn on, but not be too limiting down the road.</p>

<p>Thanks in advance for any comments/advice. As much as I've been reading, I really need help here, as it seems the more I learn, the more questions I have. Am I just over thinking this purchase? </p>

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<p>It doesn't make a huge amount of difference. They are all low end limited budget cameras that are OK. I would take the Wista. I think that they are made and finished better. You might also check out an Osaka, which is a more solid version of the Tachihara.</p>

The Wista has base tilt only on the front end; I don't know about the Shen Hao, but extrapolating from my Shen Hao 5x7

the SH 4x5 may have both base and axis tilt (I'm sure someone will know).

 

Base tilt will teach you more than you wish to know, perhaps. It's trickier than axis tilt and requires far more "iterations".

 

Otherwise the Wista is great.

 

Regards - Ross

<p>Bruce, I did notice that Lens and Repro has (had) an Osaka, and it looks similar to the Tachihara, but seems to be Ebony w/ Stainless Steel hardware. Didn't see a price. Seems very nice. <br>

Ross, this is what I found out about base tilts from B&H's specs. One thing I noticed is that the Wista and Zone VI camera look similar. Of course, the Zone VI would be much better with long lenses with it's 18" bellows. </p>

<p>Wista DX Rosewood</p>

<p><strong>Tilts</strong> Front: 90° forward, 37° backwards <br>

Rear: 90° forward, 16° backwards</p>

<p><strong>Swings </strong> Front: 15° left or right<br>

Rear: 12° left or right</p>

<p><strong>Rise & Fall</strong> Front Only: 1.4" (36mm) up, 29mm down</p>

<p><strong>Shifts</strong> Rear Only: 16mm left or right</p>

<p><strong>Camera Back</strong> International 4x5 Vertical/Horizontal quick-change type <br>

with fresnel focusing screen/protective glass overlay with 6x9cm markings</p>

<p><strong>Interchangeable Bellows </strong> No</p>

<p><strong>Minimum Extension</strong> 2" (51mm)</p>

<p><strong>Maximum Extension</strong> 12" (305mm)</p>

<p><strong>Lensboard</strong> Wista 96x99mm or Linhof Technika Type <br>

Accepts all Lenses in #0 and #1 Shutters</p>

<p><strong>Dimensions</strong> (HxWxD) 8.5 x 6.75 x 3.5" (21.6 x 17.1 x 8.9cm)</p>

<p><strong>Weight</strong> DX Rosewood: 4.5 lbs (2kg) </p>

<p>Thanks guys. Any other thoughts?</p>

<p> </p>

<p>The Osaka is made of cherrywood with multiple coats of lacquer that give it a rich finish. It runs around $750., takes technika lensboards. It has a strange rear swing. Each side of the camera back is moved forward separately to focus. If you want no swing move them the same amount. To swing, move one ahead of the other. It sounds a little goofy but actually is a good system. Needed swings are automatically used as part of the focusing. The camera has aluminum metal parts. It is made by Tachihara. We currently have a 5x7 Osaka in stock in our camera store.</p>

<p>Markus,</p>

<p>I own a couple of DXs and use them as my primary field cameras. I like the small size of the camera. It has tilts front and rear (not only front as a previous post mentions). Do get the DX and not the DXII which has no shift feature. An advantage of the DX is that smaller lenses will fold up into the camera mounted (I don't believe the Tachi will do this, not sure about the others). I leave my most used lens (a 135mm) mounted on the camera. I've modified my DXs with bubble levels and millimeter scales on the focusing rails. </p>

<p>Disadvantages are the bellows, which make using longer lenses difficult and also tend to bind and kink a bit with extremely short lenses, and the limited movements. That said, I use up to 300mm lenses on my DX with an extended lensboard and down to 75mm with a recessed board. Also, I've mastered extending shifts with the pan and swing technique. This could be used for the rise as well, but I find that if I mount my lenses offset on the board (like stock Technika boards come drilled), then I can turn the lensboard 180° and get a bit more rise when I need it. This usually does the job.</p>

<p>Other than that, I find them adequate for most everything I need in the field.</p>

<p>Hope this helps,</p>

<p>Doremus Scudder</p>

<p>It should be noted that besides Extension Lensboards Wista also offers extended focus beds and bellows for their cameras so you are not limited to the bellows length that the cameras come with.</p>

<p>A correction to Bruce's discription of the Osaka rear swing. The Osaka, Tachihara, Shen Hao, and Wista all have normally functioning rear swings. The Osaka, Shen Hao, and the Tachihara also allow the back to moved forward on the bed to move the front and rear standards closer together.<br>

Bruce is describing the Anba Tekeda (sp) a very light weight camera of dubious quality. Very flimsy but I'm sure I'll be pilloried in short order for that opinion.<br>

The Wista, Shen Hao, Osaka/Tachihara (same camera different importers) are all fine for what you want to do. I've used them all and they are all better cameras than I am a photographer. Make your best deal, buy some film and go to it.</p>

<p>Joe D.</p>

<p>"The Wista, Shen Hao, Osaka/Tachihara (same camera different importers)"<br>

That is a bit of a simplification! Wista is a Japanese factory. Shen Hao is Chinese, isn't it?<br>

In addition, Wista makes wooden cameras in several models out of cherry, rosewood, ebony or quince. The different Wista series have different features and specifications. It is not just a single wood 45 camera company!</p>

I have owned two Tachaharas . They look nice, but are not very strong. I bought a Shenhao model

TZ45-2B . It is the black walnut model with aluminum hardware. Its heaver than the Tacaharas, but built

twice as good. Plus it has a grafloc back. They are also hand made. I paid 645.00 from badger grafic sales

Check out there web site at badgergrafic.com. You wont be sorry.

<p>Quince?</p>

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<p>I have owned two Tachaharas . They look nice, but are not very strong.</p>

 

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<p>John, when you talk about the Tachihara as "not very strong", what do you mean by this specifically? It is not rigid when all the controls are locked down? </p>

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<p> bought a Shenhao model TZ45-2B . It is the black walnut model with aluminum hardware. Its heaver than the Tacaharas, but built twice as good. Plus it has a grafloc back.</p>

 

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<p>I'm a little confused about the terminology for the backs. I thought a Graflok back was that extra frame hardware, looks like some kind of metal like the one <a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/162352-REG/Wista_214535_Graflok_Back.html">here</a>. I've seen the Shen Hao TZ45-IIB and HZX45-IIA, and they seem to have the same type of back as the Wista DX. I'll attach an image, but it would be great if someone could talk a bit about "backs" in general. <br>

Wendell, <br>

The <a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/567866-REG/Wista_214604A_45DX_Quince_4x5_Wooden.html">Wista DX quince</a> model is beautiful, with red bellows, much like the Wisner Traditional. The list it on the B&H website. Apparently quince wood is very strong, and the camera is surprisingly light at ~ 3.5 lbs (1.6 kg). </p>

<p> </p><div></div>

<p>That is not the International back.</p>

<p>Bob, Thanks for clarifying. Could you or someone else tell me what kind of back it is? Did I mention I was confused? </p>

<p>The DX pictured does not have the International or Graflok back. Film holders and accessories slide in under the ground glass on a standard back of this type. The Graflock system allows Graflok-style accessories such as roll-film backs, etc. to be clipped directly on to the back by means of sliding spring clips after the ground glass has been removed. There are other roll-film backs that slip in to the camera back like a filmholder and do not use the Graflok system. Personally, I'm just fine without a Graflok back. Neither of my DXs have a Graflok back, however, I believe you can get one as an option with newer models.</p>

<p>FWIW, the Wista DX folds differently than the Tachi and Shenhao cameras. This is what allows a lens to be folded into the camera. I have other wood field cameras that fold the other way, and they work fine as well, but necessitate carrying all the lenses outside of the camera, adding a little bulk to my kit. With the DX, I can carry the camera, 4 compact lenses (one inside the camera), two sets of filters, notebook, etc. in a fanny pack.</p>

<p>Also, if you plan on using lenses of 300mm and longer a lot, it would be wiser to get a camera with longer bellows to start with than to buy extension rails, extra bellows, etc. As I mentioned, I get by with a 300mm Nikkor f-9 (a very compact and lightweight lens) on my DXs with an extension lensboard (homemade). Still, I can't use it to focus at less than about 6 feet and front movements with the extended board are a bit of a bother. That said, I use the 300mm often enough, but not lots, so the compromise of compactness and weight is worth it for me. </p>

<p>Best,</p>

<p>Doremus Scudder</p>

This is just my opinon. The aluminum is thicker on the shenhao. Also, the nuts that hold every thing down

have nylon locks so they won't come off. On both of my Tachiharas, the nuts are flimisy, and they fall off.

It just seems to be the best buy in that price range. Good luck. JB

<p>Have to correct my own correction...It should be Ikeda not Tekada. Believe it or not, Tekada was my dog. I guess I miss him more than I thought.<br>

Over the years I have owned and used Tachihara, Osaka (really the same camera I'm sure) a Deardorff, and currently a Shen Hao cameras. I borrowed the Shen Hao for an article and immediately had to have one. I love it. I think it's the best bang for the buck at the moment. <br>

One the other hand, I have worked with a borrowed Wista and it was noticeably smoother and a bit better built. But it's twice the price also. The back on the Wista shown by Markus is a spring back. But check the Wista web site. As Bob Salomon pointed out Wista offers several different models with different feature sets.<br>

Joe D. </p>

<p>I have a Tachihara and it is a fine camera. I find it plenty strong and solid. I've played with a Shen Hao. It does have more movements, but the Tachihara has more than enough for landscape photography. The Tachihara is much lighter and a bit smaller plus the folks at Midwest recommended it over the Shen Hao. That said, I'd go with the Wista over either of them if you don't need the roll film option.</p>

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<p>I have a Tachihara and it is a fine camera. I find it plenty strong and solid.</p>

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<p>The Tachihara is my second choice. The extra $200 I'd have to spend to get a new Tachihara, is one of the only reasons I'm not going in that direction. Of course I could wait a week and save the addition $$$, but I figure I'd do better spending for more lenses, film, holders, a dedicated RRS QR plate, a 4x5 developing tank, etc. Wow, where did the $200 go? </p>

 

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<p>That said, I'd go with the Wista over either of them if you don't need the roll film option.</p>

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<p>Do you mean because the Wista above doesn't have a Graflok back, I can't use a roll film back? I do know I can add a Graflok back for 290 USD new (I linked to it on my post above at 7:38 pm) if that will make it easier to attach different accessories, it is something I would consider getting. <br>

Anyway, I really appreciate all the comments. Monday morning it will be time to give Jim a call. I don't even have a camera yet and I'm finding LF photography <em>so</em> interesting. Great images, cool exotic sounding names like Grandagon, Sironar and Dagor for lenses. What more could you ask for? </p>

<p> </p>

<p>"Do you mean because the Wista above doesn't have a Graflok back, I can't use a roll film back?"<br>

Not at all. The Wista spring back is designed to open extremely wide, much wider then any other spring back, so any current or recent roll back will slide under the Wista gg back which means that the International back is not required for the Wista. That also means that since you do not have to remove the gg with the Wista spring back you have less pieces to worry about and it is very fast to re-check focus or composition compared to the International back.<br>

Since the gg itself would rest on top of an inserted roll film back Wista makes special models of their back with a metal plate on top of it to support the gg frame when the back is inserted without touching the glass itself. If you do not have these Wista backs you could make a shield from a piece of mount board to protect the gg when the back is inserted,</p>

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<p>Do you mean because the Wista above doesn't have a Graflok back, I can't use a roll film back?</p>

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<p>There are also flat-surace rollfilm backs that are designed specifically to fit under spring backs. The main ones are Calumet C2 and C2n models, and I think there's a Toyo one as well. They come in 6x7, 6x9, 6x12 and so on. KEH has a few right now as a matter of fact.</p>

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<p>Maybe I wasn't specific enough. Any 45 roll film back, Graflock design or not, will fit under the ground glass frame of the Wista wood field cameras. These cameras do not require the slim, slip-in backs for roll film.</p>

<p>Markus- I've had a nice condition used Wista DX for a couple of years, and it has behaved very well for me. I'm a bit like you, I guess. I shoot primarily medium format but got the Wista sort of as a challenge. There has been a learning curve, but I enjoy the slower and more thoughtful approach that a 4 x 5 necessitates.<br>

The only issues that I've had: the little gold-colored nuts on my Wista have been gradually disappearing and I've not found a source of replacements. And you do have to be a bit careful folding it up, otherwise it's very easy to wrinkle the bellows.<br>

And of course, when you're doing large format you might need to get one of those clumsy 'changing bags' if you're going to be shooting in the field....<br>

Good Luck on whatever choice you make!</p>

 

<p>Wista parts are available from the Wista service center. In the USA that is Marflex at 252 652-4401. Have you contacted them for replacement parts?</p>

<p>Just to add my own two cents. I learned on a Wista DX. I haven't used the Tachihara or Shen Hao. I thought the Wista was just fine. The only drawback I found was a relatively limited bellows draw, which has implications only for close up photography. As an aside, you may be able to find a used Deardorff at a comparable price -- I haven't used one, but they are supposed to be quite fine, and probably do not have the same limited bellows draw. But to your question -- yes, I learned how to do large format on a Wista and was quite happy. </p>