I Can't Take It Any More :)

<p>Only it's really not funny...</p>

<p>Been going through the critique form today, but before I commented on some images, I checked to see whether the photographers themselves had commented on others. I came upon an absolutely stunning image. Gorgeous. High Art, even. Photographer has been a member for over three years. Two-hundred-and-four critique requests. Six comments. Six. Of which <em>four</em> were about his/her <em>own</em> photos. I resisted the impulse to tell the photographer about it. What's the point?</p>

<p>See, the thing is, this person is <em>really</em> good. I'll bet they could help a lot of people to make their own work better. I'm dead sure that a compliment from them would make me, or anyone else, feel damn good. I know some people have difficulty critiquing, but that's really just an excuse. Bet most of us took crap snapshots when we started photographing. We got better. Well, you got better. Same with writing critiques, which I do professionally. Practice makes perfect, or at least competent.</p>

<p>That's just the nature of the beast. Some very good photographers aren't comfortable with critiquing the work of others. And some very good critics aren't comfortable with submitting their own work for criticism.</p>

<p>I'm more concerned about the too-frequent discouraging words aimed at folks who write very insightful critiques but who are targeted for sniping and sarcasm because they choose not to submit their own photos for critiques, or use an off-site host for their galleries. We don't have enough folks as it is to write critiques, and it doesn't help to take potshots at those who volunteer their time to offer critiques.</p>

<p>There's also the sometimes unfathomable fan club aspect to feedback on photos. Some folks apparently are thrilled to comment on the work of photographers they admire and don't seem to expect anything in return. I don't see any real harm in that.</p>

<p>Another nearly impenetrable dynamic involve the social networking cliques. They offer each other tons of cookie-cutter praise from the same praise-book, but rarely any actual critiques, technical advice or suggestions for improvement. They're happy with that. And it gives the appearance of offering lots of feedback in terms of mere numbers of comments, usually with reasonable parity between comments requested and comments doled out.</p>

<p>I tend away from critiquing. I assume that the image a photographer posts looks the way he/she wants it to look, and who am I to say that the look they show is invalid imo?</p>

<p>Then too, many critiques are of a technical advice nature and are, not infrequently, utterly worthless. Tech crits are often just plain bad advice, based on a very flawed understanding of the subject matter.. No doubt they are well intentioned but bad/erroneous advice is harmful.</p>

<p>I think critiques<strong><em> can</em> </strong> be of real value.....but <strong><em>only </em> </strong> in a particular context.....you can't just throw a piece out there for the herd to graze upon. I do see photographers here whose style talks to me, and I sometimes, not often, will offer a few remarks, but then they too have to know me for the remarks to have a useful context.......confusing issue really.....Cheers, Robert</p>

<p>If critiques and compliments from this person is this important, ask him to give you some.</p>

<p>Some people have the skills to be a critic and some have the skills to be a photographer. There is absolutely no reason that these very different skill sets show up in the same person. I paid a lot of money years ago to have someone critique my portfolio. She was not a photographer at all, but she was a great critic and a huge help. I had a famous photographer go through my portfolio and say "You know what you're doing" and that was it. Not that useful, although we had some great discussions about photography other than that.</p>

<p>Stop making assumptions about what other people can do and you will probably spend more time on things that matter.</p>

<p>Incidentally, I wouldn't put too much stock in the data you see on photo.net member public profiles. Most of my critiques on individual photos of other members just <a href="../photo/8926872">vanished this year</a> during a glitch. No idea what caused it. There had been a few hundred but most of 'em disappeared. Probably confusing to folks who responded to my now non-existent critiques.</p>

<p>There are a number of excellent photographers on this site who participate only to the extent of uploading their work for critique. This doesn't bother me at all. Nobody is being forced to comment on their uploads , no one has the right ( at least so far ) to tell them what to do and more importantly the site would be poorer in their absence. I can applaud a good photograph and be happy to leave a comment without attaching any of my own wants or expectations to the process. I can also learn a lot from studying good work. I can learn a lot more from studying good work than I can from most of the rest of what goes on around here. Encouraging good photographers to remain at PN by studying their photos and commenting on their work is good for my own development as a photographer and good for the site, that is sufficient motivation for me, if this is not sufficient motivation for others that is fine too, they can simply refrain from commenting.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Incidentally, I wouldn't put too much stock in the data you see on photo.net member public profiles. Most of my critiques on individual photos of other members just <a rel="nofollow" href="../photo/8926872">vanished this year</a> during a glitch. No idea what caused it. There had been a few hundred but most of 'em disappeared. Probably confusing to folks who responded to my now non-existent critiques.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sorry Lex, the number of people affected by that as far as we can tell.....4. You just got lucky.</p>

<p>Not a big deal on the vanishing act some of my critiques pulled. They served the intended purpose at the time.</p>

<p>Lex, maybe the ghost in the machine disagreed with your viewpoint!</p>

<p>A lot of stuff said here makes a lot of sense. I think Gordon makes a compelling case for not forcing good photographers to critique.</p>

<p>At the same time, we've been discussing now for three years (perhaps more but that's as long as I've been on board) that too many people are asking for critiques and not giving them and that causes the critique queue to be ineffective.</p>

<p>My guess is that there's a decent solution short of forcing every good photographer to give critiques. No solution will be perfect. All I am hoping for is better.</p>

<p>First, I think that anyone asking for critique should be able to accept it... good or bad. That should make giving critique easier for those who are uncomfortable. I have just started uploading to this site and thoroughly enjoy and appreciate critiques. What better way to get better than having experienced photogs talk about your shots?!<br>

As for the fact that I have not begun really to GIVE critiques while still asking for them, I would only really hope to give the photographer a "laypersons" impressions. If they are comfortable with that, and can appreciate that for what its worth, I will start to do more. <br>

I dont want to go so far as to say experienced photographers "should" critique... but I think that in the interest of the art of photography, what better way to give back and "raise the bar" than to help others get better. I hope to learn how others work, learn how to appreciate what they do,and then find my own way to make a photo "mine". To me there is no better way. Thats generally how I learn to do anything.</p>

<p>cheers, and thanks to all who have /will critique my pics.<br>

Andrew</p>

<p>Well, I'm switching to Canon. So THERE!</p>

<p>I just thought that if someone asks for our time by posting in the critique forum, we ought to get some of their time in return. That's what all of my writing critique groups and lists expect. I am referring to the <em>critique forum</em> only; if you don't want to do critiques, post images to your folders and ask specific people to look at them (or not).</p>

<p>Les I think you are right about time investment.<br /> This is time an again a subject for discussion. I can say only this,from the time I started with photography and where I stand today, PN members critique helped a lot for my development and still does.( as well as studding and being critiqued outside ).</p>

<p>I hope and think I helped , and still do to others. Critiquing others is a learning tool for the photographer him/her self too.. PN has a social component that expresses itself in the forums as well as in the personal pages, and I see it as a positive result. We are social creatures, and socialization is part of human culture and communication. It is a huge site with many difference of levels and languages barriers ( which sometimes make writing critique and expression a difficult task. ) I respect each one , especially those who comment with more substance, which of course is more helpful. I try to do it as much as I can. I hope those who ask for critique will be doing it to others.</p>

<p>I never critique offering any advice because I do not feel qualified to do so; I am just a beginner and have so much to learn. I do however critique to offer support and encouragement and to thank the photographer for submitting an image that I personally found inspirational or elicited some sort of response from me. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder so I comment on what I find to be beautiful to me personally; it does not have to be technically perfect...it is art.</p>

<p>I agree with Les regarding reciprocating and I also realize that as stands the critique forum is out of balance as regards give and take. The problem with telling people that if they do not want to give critiques they should not ask for them is the fact that there is no other venue at PN for those people to post their work and toss it out into the community at large. If you tell people they can upload photos but cannot get exposure for them unless they jump through hoops some good talent is going to walk away.<br>

Why not just admit that the current critique forum is in fact a showcase and not a legitimate venue for critique and rename it something which would reflect what is actually going on there. At the same time offer a seperate critique forum with rules about putting out if you want to receive and better guidelines about critiquing.<br>

My concern is that if you only have a single venue and you impose a bunch of new rules on the people who have been using it for a long time they will leave the site. If I go over to photosig they have a system that seems to work for generating critiques but there is none of the social aspect that the PN forum contains. The quality of the photography over there is also considerable lower. I do not look forward to either of those realities becoming what PN turns into. I am all for fixing the critique forum but not at any cost.</p>

<p>I agree with Les regarding reciprocating and I also realize that as stands the critique forum is out of balance as regards give and take. The problem with telling people that if they do not want to give critiques they should not ask for them is the fact that there is no other venue at PN for those people to post their work and toss it out into the community at large. If you tell people they can upload photos but cannot get exposure for them unless they jump through hoops , some good talent is going to walk away.<br>

Why not just admit that the current critique forum is in fact a showcase and not a legitimate venue for critique and rename it something which would reflect what is actually going on there. At the same time offer a separate critique forum with rules about putting out if you want to receive and better guidelines about critiquing.<br>

My concern is that if you only have a single venue and you impose a bunch of new rules on the people who have been using it for a long time they will leave the site. If I go over to photosig they have a system that seems to work for generating critiques but there is none of the social aspect that the PN forum contains. The quality of the photography over there is also considerable lower. I do not look forward to either of those realities becoming what PN turns into. I am all for fixing the critique forum but not at any cost.</p>

<p>It's not just PN that one finds a lack of critiquing . It seems to be much the same at all the online photo sites . I have seen people ask for assistance and others that offer aid but not a whole lot of real help. When I first joined a site and asked for help or offered what little I could , I was surprised of the outcome . Most of the time there would be nice comments and maybe a suggestion or two but I was shocked to see much of it turn out to be nothing more then arguements and name calling that wouldn't help anyone. Besides having the developed photo and writing talent ( of which I have neither ) , one would have to feel comfortable giving advice to others not to mention the time it takes to answer everyone. There are a lot of people that get paid very good money to do just this. I still hope to get better and have learned a lot from the fine photographers here but I don't really expect much personal help understanding that people have life's and time is short. The one thing that really bothers me about the critique forums is the people that seem to go from photo to photo giving out 2's, 3's to other people's work without saying anything , for me this doesn't help do anything but pass bad feelings. I won't put photos up for ratings anymore but still rate work I like when I have the time. I will continue to be a member and learn from the other artist here because for me the work here is beautiful and that will be plenty of help in of its self. Best of Light !</p>