Nightmare Wedding!

<p>Your photos are excellent. It's obvious they're trying to get something for free. I guess it's an odds game, you're bound to get some clients like that. I would just refund the money and end the service. I would also ignore their request to stop displaying your work, you have a right to do that and you've detailed that in your signed agreement even though it isn't necessary to do so.</p>

<p>David - Thank you! Your story had me absolutely rolling. Fantastic, thanks for sharing. I might one day be giving it up if I carry on getting clients like this - or clients like yours were!! Bless you!</p>

<p>Stephen - I do have quite a decent (I think) contract, but I would love one if you are willing to share! My email address is reveil.lavie@gmail.com. Any format should do. I'd like to send you mine and see what you think too? I do have a 25% down, and then the rest in payments until 14 days prior. But because this was a last minute thing... I foolishly said yes to being paid on the 15th of August when she got paid. Then it the 15th of August passed. Then the 25th... Then the 5th of September... until I think finally somewhere in Mid-September I got paid after a few phone calls and emails. Stupid, totally I know!<br>

<br /> Charles - Thank you!! And yes, it seems an odds game. I do want to do what you suggest. Refund and cut ties but they haven't even responded to this offer which was made over 4 days ago. Not really sure what they are playing at to be totally honest. And once it is resolved I will return to using the images, just whilst trying to resolve things it does make it harder work to be obviously irritating them. I will follow your suggestions at the first opportunity! :)</p>

<p>I can't see what she is complaining about. The shots look great to me and she even said she was pleased with them. Seems more like she may have saw the news about a photographer being sued and is trying to get a refund or she has seen someones album with posed formals and regrets demanding an all natural style. These are adult people who did not want posed pictures that was their decision not yours and they need to learn to stand behind their decision and not blame others when their decision was wrong for them. Do they blame the car salesman when they buy a Chrylser 300 with a V8 hemi that seemed cool at the time when after a few months they realise is they needed a small family car and does he give them a refund because they made a bad decision. Some people never take any responsibilty for their decisions and choose to blame everyone else around them when things don't go as planned. The sad part is they often do this for the rest of their and pass the way of thinking down to their children.</p>

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<p> so perhaps I might hand the business side of the business to my tougher edged hubby who is kind, but not a softy like me</p>

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<p>If you have someone who can do the "tough stuff" for you (when necessary) it's so much easier. It's the main reason why actors have agents, people hire solicitors to negotiate for them, estate agents to sell their houses and so on. Any conversation or letter that's peppered with "<em>my client feels that ....</em>" or "<em>my partner is not prepared to...</em>" or even just "<em>we cannot accept...</em>" is automatically brick-built compared to "<em>I won't....</em>"</p>

<p>Dawn Hi<br>

This will be short and maybe not so sweet i agree with all the guys who have posted I have been around these pages long enough and respect all points of view after all we are photographers, mainly we all approach things from the same point of veiw but, different. Thats what determines our styles<br>

You know muggers dont all come with masks on, some have it down to a fine art , i think you are being mugged right now! your work is superb, i aspire to this level. i do budget stuff and do it really well i always under promise and over deliver I get refferals all over the place from previous clients.<br>

Dont worry about going to court you could print these pages and use them in your defence if it ever went that far. The court would take the views of the pros on this page and probably dismiss any procedure before it begins.<br>

I would not return any monies let them get stressed fighting for it i dont think they will. muggers are cowards too, stick to your guns and stand tall. your Father may find forgiveness and so might you for people who act this way so would i, (after i had my fair retribution) it is they who have the problem not you unfortunately in life we have to bump ito these persons they only make us stronger.</p>

Without making any racist comments, I'm myself east european, these people were trying to rip you off. I dealt with plenty of similar background in the past and they were constantly trying to make me feel unconfortable for charging them too much as a driving instructor. No disrespect and all sympathy for their financial situation, BUT money don't come for free to any of us.

Dawn, you need to put your prices up, people will respect you more.

<p>I like your description Jamie - muggers! I'm reminded of a coupe we met on a safari holiday some years ago. They were a lovely young couple, fairly newly married. However, everywhere we went they tried to get some deal/discount/compensation. They's take off their wedding rings and pretend to have just got engaged in order to con freebies/discounts etc. Their greatest two pleasures in life seemed to be mugging people and then boasting of it to others. I couldn't bear to be in their company by the end of the trip.</p>

<p>Another couple ( wealthy but tight) I'm aquainted with have a similar disposition. After every holiday they sit and write a long letter of complaint to the company demanding compensation. At a recent wedding where I was both guest and photog the waitress spilled something across the males trousers - he actually asked me to take a photograph of the damage (ie wet patch) as proof for his compensation claim. Needless to say I didn't, but he still received a cash settlement for a dry cleaning bill on his suit, even tho' it was machine washable. He was happy, he went home plastered with "more money in his pocket than he arrived with."</p>

<p>I guess we can't avoid contact with people like this, but boy we can sure minimise the time we spend with them. They tend to get their just rewards in the end - few friends and a discontent nature that becomes more and more poisonous.<br>

You, on the other hand Dawn, have the rewards of having taken some great photos and, when you manage to put this behind you, will be much wiser and richer for it. Do what you have to, keep smiling and keep on keeping on.</p>

<p><em>"I appreciate the shots you posted are only a small sample, but based on the ones you've shown, I can think of no reason why anyone should be 'devasted' with the results. They are in my opinion well composed and well lit, and none of them demonstrates any obvious technical flaw........ There's nothing very wrong with the images themselves.......It sounds like your biggest mistake was in client management. You didn't set expectations that they understood, and you didn't adhere to the contract you wrote. When you were challenged, despite feeling that there was no basis for dispute, you didn't gather any material facts to support their claim, and in short order you conceded to demands that you felt were without merit and returned the funds you were paid." -Neil A.</em><br /><em></em><br /><strong>Agree 100%</strong></p>

<p>I won't comment on you woes, which are well covered I believe by others. However I will say those are fantastic photos and assuming the others of similar quality, they have little to complain about. More so if they forced your hand on formals.</p>

<p>As I was saying yesterday to a friend about someone who had been obnoxious, "There's always someone." Unfortunately you found them. Don't take it personally though - it's not your work, it's them. That is a great set of photos there. Very nice eye.</p>

<p>I'm a lurker in the wedding forum, in part because wedding shots are SO not my thing, but I regularly get asked to make sure I take lots of pictures at weddings because more than once my candids were much better than the photographers. (Mainly because the ones I get have a lot more focus on the moments that the photographer wouldn't be getting, but also because the quality of wedding photographer some folks get is all over the map.) That said, I have seen quite a few "wedding photographers" post their shots here. I don't know that I've ever seen ones that were consistently as good as the ones you've posted on flickr. </p>

<p>Really. Outstanding. Work.</p>

<p>I have to wonder about the circumstances of the couple "losing" their first photographer. He may not have your skill in shooting, but I suspect he has a more keenly developed sense of when to get the h*ll out of there. I think you were set up for disaster. Again, I'm not a wedding photographer, but I think you need to charge more. A lot more. Someone who produces what you did with zero cooperation in a venue as you describe should be getting the amount you did just for the shoot, before all the PP, etc.</p>

<p>Sorry to be contrary... but I wonder if this represents the gulf between what photographers think of as good technical images (mono, great exposure, tack sharp, slightly artsy) and what joe public considers good photos (more conventional posedportraits & classic wedding moment shots). See, just my view, but whilst I definitely appreciate the craft in what you've done from a classic photography point of view, but as a representation of wedding day there do seem to be some holes there of classic moments? Ie happy couple, down the aisle, parents, bridesmaids, cake, rings... etc etc etc?<br>

I'd also suggest that given that recent BBC coverage this won't be the last incident like this... it strikes me as fairly likely that more people will be a lot more critical of what they're happy with. You were very wise to have a tight contract prior to the event and I'd suggest that others who don't have such an approach might regret this in the months to come! As for Alin's comment... I'm not so sure - this behaviour happens in every culture and sector when times are tight. It's a buyer's market.</p>

<p>Based on what I've seen here, I can't be the only one wondering how good your work must be when everything's clicking and you've got a great group to work with.</p>

<p>Excellent work, as so many others have already mentioned :). </p>

<p>Not that it really matters, but what were you shooting with? The technical part of me can't help but wonder about that too. I'm no wedding photographer (or any particular kind of shooter for that matter), but your work stands out and whatever you use to make it happen is good information to me. </p>

<p>All the best to your future work :). I think you have many happy clients awaiting you.</p>

<p>Dawn, your images are wonderful. I hope you have talked with a legal expert. Good luck. Vr Andy</p>

<p>It happened to me too-<br>

The only bad thing was that I didnt have a contract. I ended up actually qouting a law about the First Admendment, and they backed off.</p>

<p>They were having a wedding, and the photog dropped out 2 days prior. I foudn them on CL and took a 3 hour train to the Hamptons. I was really excited - as you said UNTIL;</p>

<p>1 - Noone in party cared about even getting photo'd<br>

2 - Found out it was the second wedding - for the same couple - within weeks of each other (weird...)<br>

3 - The hubby wanted to watch football instead<br>

4 - The lighting was horrid<br>

5 - the only nice ppl were the old ones who couldnt push me around<br>

6 - Never even let me eat in the 16 hour day<br>

7 - paid me pennies - but i was willing to do for exposure<br>

8 - LEFT ME IN THE RAIN WHILE I WAITED FOR THEM TO RUN TO LIMO (had a scene planned) and then when I finally said "why are you not getting in the car?" ANSWER: "Its not the Royce we ordered..." By then the moisture got in my camera and I had a 3 hour hold of drying - thank goodness it dried quickly-<br>

9 - later find out they were BOTH right out of law school- which they lied to me about the profession<br>

10 - wrote me askig for originals and money back<br>

I waondered why they wanted originals if they hated them - and then they started saying stuff like ; "WORK FOR HIRE"<br>

Thats when I knew they were law kids who were boasting their newly earned degree.<br>

After qouting the FA - I never heard from them again.</p>

<p>Never give up anything, and never in your contract (I now use them...lol) give them a way out. Its like saying your bad before you show them your NOT!</p>

<p>Never admit defeat.</p>

<p>Godo luck next time, and use this to get yourself stronger.</p>

<p>Hi Dawn,<br>

I am very new to photography and, frankly, don't think I will ever be able to shoot weddings. Precisely because of the reasons you listed above: lack of control over the lighting situations, too many people, and, first and foremost - unreasonable customers. I'm afraid these days it became very popular (and very profitable) to be an 'unreasonable customer'. You complain - and you get stuff free. I even overheard one lady at a shoe store giving advice to her friend, "You can buy these shoes, wear them all you like and then bring them back saying they were damaged, and they will change them for you or give you your money back!" Honestly, this kind of cheap people drive me crazy! Every service and every product should be rewarded accordingly. <br />I went through your album, and, if I were the bride, I would love to have you do my wedding, if I could get such great pictures. So, these guys just want to get it free. I think you should not be afraid to receive a complaint, because most of complaints are just a tool to get free service. If they threaten to sue - let them sue! Bring those photos to the court in front of a judge and let them point out exactly what made them so 'devastated'! And put those pictures back on your website - it's in their contract, they signed it, period.<br />All I can add is I just hope one day I would be able to take photos as good as yours!<br>

Best of luck!<br>

Irina M.</p>

<p>Dawn, you did a nice job with the photos.<br>

<br /> I'd suggest when they return your time you return their money.</p>

<p>Now I don't want to appear cynical but surely it's no coincidence that the day after there's a huge press story about someone suing a photographer and getting most of their money back, that out of the blue you get a phone call from these people.<br>

One word - chancers. Let them take you to court, I'll come and cheer you on from the public gallery if you like, and we can all enjoy the looks on your bride and grooms faces when they lose.<br>

These are more than acceptable photographs. Don't give them a penny.</p>

<p>David</p>

 

<p>Dawn, your Images are quite nice. <br>

Having to deal with unreasonable clients does happen. Use this to develop a strategy in that regard, i.e. your contract. Also the warning bells should have gone off when they failed to get back to you in regards to the shot list. Your service isn't just to show up and take pictures on the day. Would they tell a cake maker to just bake something and then be devastated because it was chocolate.<br>

Some people will never be happy. You don't have to work with them. <br>

I would very much like to see more of your work.</p>

 

<p>Dawn, I was pleasantly surprised when I clicked on your Flickr link. I was expecting the usual beginner junk, but what was there was quite good. We're all assuming you got more than the artsy odd moment, like the processional, exchange of rings, kiss, etc. etc. I don't really see the madding crowd in the pictures, and the light wasn't bad if you know how to handle back lighting, which it appears you do.<br>

Now, where you made your mistake is that you begged them <em>twice </em>to take advantage of you. Once in your contract ("if you're not totally satisfied") and once after ("I have promptly offered to refund them in full, to complete and pay for their album out of pocket, and their prints, AND to help edit any family pictures"). You have left out only repairing torn photos of deceased relatives and lifetime family portraits. This is what we call "leading with your chin". They haven't responded yet to your offer because they have a tiny bit of decency, and have a nagging sense of conscience that is preventing them from jumping on your offer.<br>

Retract the offer now.<br>

Let your husband be the <del>heavy</del> manager. Artists sometimes have horrible business skills.</p>

<p>Dawn,</p>

<p>I agree with everyone who said to NOT refund their money, and retract the offer to do so. Your images are SUPERB.</p>

<p>I worked with two different wedding photographers this summer, and your images blow both of theirs out of the water. One photographer has been doing weddings for about 2 years, the other has been doing them for about 10 years.</p>

<p>I don't really want to be a wedding photographer, but in my area the only people who get paid for their images photograph either high school seniors or weddings. I wanted to gain more experience, so I worked for whoever I could. :)</p>

<p>Best of luck to you. :)</p>

<p>A lot of great photos, Dawn! You have a good eye for detail and you've done a good job taken into account that the ceremony where held in a room with very challenging lighting conditions. I was a bit surprised to see so few happy people - my experience from weddings is that people are overwhelmingly happy..! You shouldn't worry too much but I totally understand that this is putting a lot of stress on you. Try to close this case asap and move on to your next job. </p>

<p>As for Alin's comment... I'm not so sure - this behaviour happens in every culture and sector when times are tight. It's a buyer's market.</p>

<p>No doubt, don't disagree, but EVERY customer of this kind has always complained about the money. Perhaps they really don't have the money.<br>

<a href="/photodb/user?user_id=2315573">Marten Holmes</a>, right on mate, couldn't agree more.</p>

<p>Hi Dawn,<br>

You have loads of good advice so I'm not going to add anything these guy's have said just a bit of experience.<br>

I was intregued though, so I had a look at your shots. When I saw, it all became clear. Yes, I've been there, several hundred guests (400+ at one), the groom late, the bride an hour late (why, she knew when she was getting married surely?). In fact nothing ran to time and I don't want to be there all night either(I wasn't getting paid that much). It can just run away if you don't strictly control it early on. I worked for twenty years on weddings and had about 6 of these in all my time. I would have avoided them like the plague if I had had the choice as it does you no good at all least of all your business(I was a sub contractor). I developed a radar about such people with warning bells going off in my head. Hopefully it will resolve itself in your favour if not put it down to experience and next time don't accept everyone that comes through your door, some clients just ain't worth the hassel.</p>

<p>Good set of pics. </p>

<p>Dawn. I will not bore you with the two or three clients over seven years of shooting weddings that gave me a hard time.. But two of them, cheap weddings, were trying to beat me out of their fees. The other was a very large, very disorganized wedding where the two families were fighting over who was going to pay for what and left me short my fee. If you shoot enough weddings there are those who have had bad things happen and those who will. I would just get away from it as fast as possible. Take your losses and lessons and run. Looking at your pictures I would hire you on the spot. You sound a very caring, decent individual. You have nothing to be ashamed of. There are jerks in this world and jerks that want to beat you out of womething. Hindsight is a great thing and I think you have heard enough in this thread. You will be fine. Your next client will be better. Adequate contracts are fine but if you or your client have to go to the contract you already have problems and nobody wants to take it to a judge because the legal fees are more than the money at stake.</p>

<p>Dawn, don't offer a refund but do offer to do a free divorce party shoot. They sound like the kind of couple who will be breaking up in a year or two. Selfish and self centered, the wedding had to be "perfect" and of course they never are up to the standards of brides (or grooms) who think the rest of their lives hinge on that one day's events!</p>