Please help me choose a 6x6 camera

<p>My only venture into medium format was with a Minolta Autocord TLR - beautiful camera and superb value for money. I bought one with a meter, and they are significantly more expensive. If I did it again, I'd buy one without a meter, because once you go to the trouble of using a TLR, using a hand-held meter hardly adds any inconvenience. Plus even the cheapest hand held meter is at least as good as the meter in a TLR.</p>

<p>My personal conclusion about medium format was that the cost of developing 120 color film - print or slide - was prohibitive for me. I might have persisted if I was into B&W, and did my own darkroom work, but I am far more interested in color photography. The Minolta was great for me to rule out medium format as a suitable medium for my work. I sold it for about as much as I paid, and I would have lost a ton of money if I had started with a new Hasselblad. But if cost is a big issue for you, it's the film and developing that will get you, not the price of the camera. Maybe use a TLR to attract people, but then take the shot with your 5D ;-)</p>

<p>Come on, suck it up & buy a Hasselblad, you will not regret it. Someone said ""<em>the Hasselblad may slow you down; it's heavy, you need to remember to pull the darkslide before shooting, and replace it when changing backs</em>. ""<br>

Nah, don't believe it,,I shot hundreds of weddings with my Hasselblads, never slowed me down. If interested, I have a nice spare 500CM outfit I will sell,</p>

<p>I have to say that I've never drawn so much attention to myself as during a visit to Venice in 1996 with my Rolleiflex T. The same camera also drew me into a chance conversation (in Henley-on-Thames, c. 1997) with a rather famous comedy actor from the 1960s, who told me that he'd once been given a Rollei T by Paul McCartney (who got it in turn from his brother Mike). Incidentally, the T also takes great photos and handles so intuitively that it feels half its actual size in use (unlike 6x6 SLRs, which to me always feel bigger than they are and have massively clunky mirror actions)</p>

<p>Dear all kind responders,</p>

<p>Once again, thank you very much for your opinions, expressed both here and privately via e-mail. I think I have made up my mind, and I will go for <strong>Mamiya C330 TLR</strong>, probably at KEH (which I had not even known before). People suggesting Hasselblad made me thinking, and I was tempted for a while, but I believe that's just too much for me at the moment. I'm not good enough to use all Hasselblad's capabilities. Bronicas were tempting too, and less expensive, but there's the important "draw attention" factor where TLRs win.</p>

<p>Russ, thank you for posting this beautiful photograph. This is the kind of pictures I want to take, but I'll go for Mamiya instead of Rollei.</p>

<p>Once I sell my digital gear and buy the TLR, I will surely have questions about film and development techniques, because the last time I developed by myself was 10+ years ago. But that's gonna be a different thread.</p>

<p>Big THANK YOU to all of you! This forum is invaluable.</p>

<p>Just to point out if it's not already covered above, the rollei sl66 has a tilt mechanism - up and down only about 8degrees but it might help. Also the lens can be turned round as it has a similar bayonet on the front as the normal mount, so you can do a bit of impromptu macro at the drop of a hat. The big disadvantage is that lenses are like rocky horse droppings, difficult to get hold of. </p>

<p>Oh, the other thought - it may be worth trying to get hold of an old folding 6x6, it ought to be somewhat better than a holga, probably cheaper too. It will give you a chance to play with the format, should provide images with a character of their own and keep your costs down.</p>

<p>I had replaced Hassie with Mamiya & still have them. A 645Pro & a Mamiya 6 rangefinder in a 6x6 format.<br>

The Hassie's are a fortune to open & service. Ergonomically I did not like them. Hasselblads waist finder is fine. The eye level finders are known to be dim, even with Beattie screens</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Mamiya C33 / C330 f/s -- I understand there is not much difference between these apart from weight and small design differences</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes and no. The C33 is an older camera. Mamiya was very kind to us in naming their cameras in a sensible fashion! The single digit C series TLR's are the oldest, from the late 1950's to early 1960's. They can take all of the brand new modern lenses, but the bodies may not be in great condition. The leatherette tends to fall apart badly on these for some reason and the older lenses can be yellowed... which might effect color photographs. These older cameras are completely manual and require alot of patience. At this early stage Mamiya began differentiating two lines, a budget line; C2, C22, C220 and a professional line; C3, C33, C330. The double digit cameras are from the mid 1960s and added double exposure protection to the camera. The C220 began life in the late 1960s and was manufactured for the longest run until the 80s when it was replaced with the C330. For the nearly twenty years of production the C220 remained pretty much the same and it is quite possibly the best deal in medium format, then and now. Obviously the C330 is the only "modern" camera in the series and has lots of little quirks like focus lock on the last version, new scales on the focus scale and a return to boring leatherette on the body instead of the rubber covering, which I think is great stuff.</p>

<p>As they progressed in time, the professional line kept getting better and better while the budget line pretty much just kept up appearances. For instance, the C2, C22 and C220 all have a knob style film advance, although the C220 it folds out into a crank. The C3, C33 and C330 all have a fixed crank film advance for faster use. The "2" series cameras all have manual shutter cocking whereas the C33 and C330 offer automatic shutter cocking. The C33 and C330 are also the only cameras in the series to offer automatic parallax correction in the viewfinder but ALL Mamiya TLR's can be easily setup with parallax guides in the viewfinder simply using a pencil. The shutter cocking and parallax correction mechanisms make the C33 weigh quite a bit more than other cameras in the series, so if weight is an issue you might consider the C220 or C330. The C33 is simply a beast of a camera and the C220 weighs dramatically less, without the lenses the C220 weighs almost half of the C33! The C22 and C330 both weigh in between the C220 and C33.</p>

<p>The C220 and C330 are the only cameras in the series that are designed to shoot both 120 and 220 film, although there are a special backs available for the C22 and C33, but good luck finding them! Most of the cameras in the series except for the very earliest ones have interchangeable viewfinders, but the stock waist level finder is the best way to use the camera IMO. Be aware that the waist level finders are not really swappable across model generation, they look like they should be, but I've found that they often do not seat correctly, especially using late model finders on the single digit models. I've handled, cleaned and repaired the C2, C33, as well as regularly used the C220 and they are all great cameras. One of the greatest things about the Mamiya TLR line is that the most fragile part of any camera, the shutter, swaps out with the lens! I've shot with the 80mm, 65mm and 180mm lenses and they are all pretty good. The 65mm I use is an older silver model and it's a little soft, as you would expect of a wide angle lens from the 1960s. The 80mm f/2.8 is I think one of my favorite medium format normal lenses. It is wickedly sharp and has a wonderful bokeh that I just really enjoy.</p>

<p>Please check out this site for more information:<br>

http://www.btinternet.com/~g.a.patterson/mfaq/m_faq-contents.html</p>

<p>I used to really enjoy taking photos wih my Mamiya 6. It's a lot of fun and the results were excelent. It was stolen from my car a couple of years ago. I found the 150mm lens totally useless with this camera. The 50mm wide-angle Mamiya lens (28mm - equiv.) was to die for. A really top-notch optic. The 75mm ws also really nice. This is a really compact camera that takes fantastic results. I love 'em. Highly recommended. Cheers, Alex.</p>

<p>Adam,<br>

Your choice is a good one and a reasonably priced one. Now, all you have to do is let us know how it works out for you when you receive it.</p>

<p>I do highly recommend the Minolta Autocord, beautiful results & still very resonable in price!</p>

<p>Mr. Podstawczynski...</p>

<p>That's essentially true. Except for the very best of the drum scanners, 3000 PPI is about the scanning limit for medium format (although the Nikon 8000/9000 will do close to its rated 4000 PPI). Very few people use "through the glass" enlarging. All those machines that the photo stores and WalMart use now scan the film and digitally print it as square pixels of colors on silver-halide-based wet-process paper. There are very few exceptions. Those printers usually max out at 300 PPI. A few will do 403 PPI, but the people who run them normally set them to speed up and reduce costs for volume production.</p>

<p>The bottom line is that any lens that can actually put 60 lp/mm on film exceeds the ability of 99% of the scanner and printer combinations out there. A used Rolleicord V with a properly columated lens is at the top of being the weakest link in the picture chain. I also own a Mamiya 7II that will put a true 120 lp/mm on a film good enough to take it. It is a pleasure to own and a pleasure to look through a loupe at the film.</p>

<p>However, if I want to do anything beyond admire the crispness through a loupe, I have to send the developed film to a particular person out of state who has and knows how to run a good 8000 PPI scanner and then find a printer who can do 403 PPI digitally. Then I can make a tack-sharp print 34 1/2" on the short side. Few people looking at the print would ever appreciate the work and expense that went into it.</p>

<p>Remembering that when a person CLAs a camera, they often take the lens apart to clean it. If it is not put back with exactly the same element spacing, and I mean down to hundredths, maybe thousandths of a millimeter, then you're going to have softer images than when the lens was new.</p>

<p>I think the answer for your first camera is to buy something around $150 in good shape, having not been CLAed unless they only cleaned the lens fore and aft without taking it apart, in the Rolleicord V general classification. A little lesser, but not much, would be a Yashica 124G. Slightly better, but not much, would be the Mamiya TLR with an 80mm lens. About equal would be an Icoflex with a coated Tessar and one of several lesser known brands with high quality four or five element lenses. For $350-700, a five element Rolleiflex of more recent manufacture, some of the Bronicas and Hasselblads, and if you're strong enough to carry it, a Mamiya RB with a 90mm lens would all exceed your expectations, if they were in fact in good shape. Above $700, there are a lot of choices that would include the cost of multiple lenses.</p>

<p>Still, for your first foray into medium format, why not just spend $150 and see how you like it? You'll learn a lot of valuable lessons, both good and bad, with your first $150 camera, perhaps including whether you want to spend some serious money to have and enjoy the very best. With $150 6X6 or 6X7, you can make twice the size in prints with the same relative sharpness of lens that you could with 35mm. In the same size prints, you'll get a better transition of tone in black and white, and of course shades of color in color prints and slides. Also remember the abililty of film in tone, color accuracy and/or snap, as well as real and/or apparent sharpness and crispness, varies amongst brand, lines within the brand, and speed.</p>

<p>Whatever you do, I hope you enjoy your first foray into medium format. I probably have close to 50 medium format cameras and 75 lenses. My first happened ironically to be a Rolleicord V that I bought from a knowledgeable and honest friend that was in very good shape and had never been apart. I had a great experience with it or I would not have all this other junk that I do. I did not use it earlier this year for what was, to me, the most important picture I would take in my life. One other time, it was all that I had, and as I look back, I would have liked to have had a large format or at least my Mamiya 7II, in order to capture detail on all the faces of a somewhat distant group shot of about 100 people. I'm still glad I had the camera that day, or it would have been on 35mm film. That means that tens of thousands of dollars later, I would have only liked to have had one shot better and didn't use my little $150 camera one time.</p>

<p>Economics don't lie but people are still entitled to their choices,</p>

<p>Tom Burke</p>

<p>i've had two rolleiflexes [automat and T], two yashicas [yashicaflex and 124G]. all great, the rolleis were a little sharper but the 124G does fantastic with slide film. i bought the 124G in like new condition for $185 from frick's drug store in sequim, wash. everything works except the light meter. recently i acquired a mamiya 7 [6x7 format] with 80mm lens, which pretty much tops the TLRs in all respects -- the only drawback being the rangefinder doesn't show you exactly where the edge of the image will be.<br>

<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3010/2638480956_69beaed3aa.jpg" alt="" width="500" height="493" /><br>

seattle alley -- yashica 124G, ilford delta 100</p>

<p>Clark,<br>

It looks like it does pretty darn well with Delta 100 also. I've been using Fuji Acros lately(cheaper than Delta), but still think Delta 100 is about the best there is. Did you process your own Delta 100? I have a shot of a steam locomotive that I took with my 3.5E Rollei on Delta 100 souped in Ilford Perceptol 1:3 that is just awesome with fine detail with excellent blacks. Adam might want to try Ilford Delta 400 in his new/used Mamiya C330 for street photos. Should be a good combo, but I don't really have much experience with Delta 400.</p>

<p>I am a Kowa Super 66 user and I can highly recommend it. You can usually put together a nice camera with the black 55mm and 150mm with a professional CLA. Add either TTL meter finders and you are still under budget.</p>

<p>That being said, I used a C330f for a while and it is a great camera system. I only sold it because I wanted to get into macro photography, an area where the TLR is bested by the SLR design. While I love my Kowa I still wish that I had kept the Mamiya. TLRs are addictive.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/MF_testing.html">Medium Format Lens Reviews</a></p>

<p>JW<br />i love delta pro 100... sometimes i buy 20 rolls at a time. haven't been processing it myself, not because i don't want to -- trying to do my part to keep the sole remaining local custom photo processing shop in business. if they go away, i'll get the reels and tanks out of the closet...</p>

<p>Clark,<br>

Out of all the 100 speed B&W films out there I like Delta 100 best, but I have a fond love for the old Kodak Verichrome Pan film and wish I could still get it. Plus-X isn't bad either and I use that for some things. The nice thing I like about Delta 100 is that it goes good with diluted Rodinal, Diafine, Perceptol or just about any developer. If I could only have one ISO/ASA 100 speed film it would probably be Delta 100. Sorry to hijack this thread. JohnW</p>

<p>Can I say how refreshing it has been to read all the responses to this question because it is about FILM and not about PIXELS! The 6 X 6 format is indeed the most creative to work with. In my collection of cameras I have a Yashicamat EM, Rolleiflex F3.5 Tessar, Mamiya C220's, C330, and the latest C330S. All great cameras in their individual way. I like the 75mm lens in the Rollei but overall the Mamiya series are just so brilliantly designed they are my pick. Not a battery in sight! I also have many nice 35mm cameras (many Russian) and for my digital work (just to show I'm not a complete Luddite) I use a Panasonic LC1 with the superb Leica f2 Summicron lens.<br>

Good luck with your 6 X 6 photography, you will not regret it. I think B & W in this format is the ultimate creative challenge and even more so if you have your own darkroom.<br>

Ramon Jones</p>

<p>Interesting lot of posts here. I have used extensively, the Mamiya Universal Press (6x7), a Rolleiflex 2.8E2 that was my portrait camera for years, a Mamiya C33 with a 105 lenses someone loaned me that I replaced with the Rollei when he wanted it back., A Ricohflex Super G, and several old Kodak folders. I listed them in my own order of preference. It is also pretty much the order of output quality. Unfortunately, I have never used a MF SLR extensively so cannot make any recommendations there (Actually, looking on eBay you can get an older Hassy fairly cheaply, only they cost quite a bit ot repair if there is a problem). BTW, except for the folders I doubt a client would be able to tell which of the cameras I listed above the photo was made with.</p>

<p>Tom, interesting that you rank the Mamiya Universal Press (6x7) ahead of the Rolleiflex 2.8E2, on both usage preference and output quality. I'm a Universal user and love it, but I would have thought that the exalted (and much more expensive) f2.8 Rolleiflex E2 would be ranked ahead of it. How would you explain this - is it purely the difference between 6x6 and 6x7 or is it something else?</p>

<p>My first first tlr is a yashicamat EM. It works well enough for me, I am looking for a yashica D with the 4 element yashinon lens. You can easily do multiexposures with it and no transport system to go wrong. Don't get me wrong, my yashica works quite well still. Now some people have mentioned film, Ilford Delta 100 is wonderfull, I also like the old plus-X by kodak. The film that I use the most though is available through Freesyle Photographic Supplies, Arista.EDU Ultra. It is available in 100, 200 and 400 asa. Available at <a href="http://www.freestylephoto.biz">www.freestylephoto.biz</a>. They also carry Ilford, kodak, fuji, and quite a few other brands. I like the Arista because it is alot less expensive than the others and I am still learning on the processing and such. I also like the kodak chemistry, D76 for film processing. There are a lot of different developers out there though. <br>

<a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=442919">clark yerrington</a> a high five for supporting your local business!! My local camera store stopped carrying 120 film altogether. They barely carry any 35mm.</p>