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Mamiya 645 The Good, Bad, and Ugly


cory_newbould

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<p>The 645 film area is about 2.7x the size of 35mm so you'll see a huge improvement in tonality. And 645 cameras are lighter and more compact than many other choices.</p>

<p>The Mamiya 645 is a good solid choice, but the flash sync is really slow - 1/60 sec on the Pro TL that I used to own. That makes outdoor flash photography a bit challenging. So, if flash matters, you may want to look at the Bronica ETRSi that had leaf shutter lenses that sync at all speeds. Excellent lenses and inexpensive, too.</p>

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<p>I moved into medium format from digital/35mm about 18 months ago, got a 645 Pro-TL, mainly for landscapes. The main problem with the 645 format is even though this is the smallest of the 120 formats, the depth of field really is limiting for those cases when you need maximum front-to-back sharpness like landscapes, even at f/22 on a 45mm lens. Of course for shallow DOF shots, its great.</p>
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<p>Hi Cory I started with the original mamyia 645 back in 1974, It was a good camera, not a great camera. Yes as Robert said the Bronica will give you more flash sync. range. I had film advance problems and battery issues with my Mamyia while it was brand new. Sold it and bought all Hasselblad in 1980 and have never had any problems with equipment after that. Oh depth of field issues are not a problem, with any camera as you move to longer focal length lens you will loose some depth of field, you just stop down more and use a tripod more often. That slowing down is part of what gives you better images.<br>

Medium format is not just larger 35mm cameras any more that 8X10 cameras are just bigger medium format cameras. They are differnt tools, for different jobs, and require different skill levels. </p>

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<p>By "original" Mamiya 645 do you mean the OLD heavy metal series? If so, skip it. Most I've seen are in desperate need of help, especially with gicky foam light seals. They also lack film backs and use just inserts that make film changing a pain. There are lots of the later Super/Pro/ProTL cameras around for fair prices. The "slow" flash sync is not a problem unless you are equipped and able to do fill flash outdoors. Otherwise, with studio flash, the Mamiya 645 does just fine. If you're used to 35mm 8x10 enlargements, you'll be <strong>very</strong> happy with 645 prints.</p>
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<p>I started using medium format with a Mamiya M645J, which I quickly replaced with an M645-1000S. The cost for these is quite low, lenses are also cheap and plentiful, and the results are very nice. I still have my 1000S kit, and use it when I want to use a hand held format on long hikes, but I prefer the RB67 for work where the weight does not matter due to the size of the negative. As a disclaimer, I also use 4x5 so I am inclined to prefer a larger negative in general...</p>

<p>Two things to keep in mind when trying out a new camera format:</p>

<p>1) Cost. You don't know if you are going to like it or not, so consider that the initial investment may not be recoverable if you don't like it. I'd go with something inexpensive and if you like the format you can always get something different, but if you don't you're not out a boat load of cash.</p>

<p>2) Cost - overall cost. Consider what focal length lenses you might want to have in the future. A complete kit for something like a Mamiya M645 is going to be less than the body cost for some other brands. Think about what you want and if you will be able to afford that or not. In my humble opinion, it's better to get a system that will allow you to afford all of the gear/lenses/etc that you will want than it is to get what other people think is the 'best' system going and be unable to afford anything else.</p>

<p>As to the comments about light seals, I understand the concerns, but this happens to <em>all</em> light seals over time, including those in film backs. Light seals take about 15 - 20 minutes to replace for the cost of about $10 USD. It's a good idea to replace the seals when you get a used camera anyway because chances are unless the camera is only 5-6 years old the seals are suspect...</p>

<p>- Randy</p>

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<p>Mamiya 645 cameras: there have been 11 models, which come in 3 design families or eras:<br>

1) '70s-'80s: M645, M645J, M645 1000s, M645E<br>

2) '80s-'90s: Super, Pro, Pro TL<br>

3) '90s-'00s: AF, AFD, AFDII, AFDIII</p>

<p>The M645E is actually a '00s camera, but it is built on the same chassis and features/controls layout as the original family, so I include it with them.</p>

<p>As a MF beginner, the AF line is probably out of your budget, and to some extent it doesn't deliver the quintessential medium format SLR experience anyway. No waist-level-finder viewing possible, for instance.</p>

<p>So buy either a M645 1000s, Pro or Pro TL. The 1000s has better specs than the others in its family - it was the original flagship. Although newer, the M645E is a step down in specs and versatility compared to the 1000s. The Pro and Pro TL are so similar that I wouldn't distinguish between them for your purposes. The Super was not as well built as them, and it's also the ugliest camera of the eleven models!</p>

<p>How to decide between the 1000s on the one hand and the Pro/ProTL on the other? Budget is one factor; expect to pay about double for a Pro/ProTL. What and how you shoot is another factor. If you envision yourself wanting to chop and change films mid-roll, forget the 1000s. But I love the 1000s + PD prism because it is better in low light than the Pro/ProTL + AE prism. OTOH, the latter is better for fast AE shooting, especially with its power drive option; a better camera for action. There are still other factors too. If you like the feel, sound and tactile operation of a metal, almost completely mechanical camera, get the 1000s; it has solid buttons and levers to operate everything from shutter release to mirror lockup and DOF preview, and a clockwork whirring self timer instead of a beep-beep-beep one. That said, it has superb electronics where it really matters: precise shutter timing over a 1/1000 to 8 seconds range; batteries that last for years; and a fully coupled PD (photodiode) meter prism option with an incredible sensitivity range down to -1.15 eV - beating all its siblings, just about all other MF metering systems to the present day, and most "professional" 35mm SLRs as well.</p>

<p>This was a very relevant thread about the 1000s: http://www.photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/00Jwz4</p>

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<p>Cory, may I ask what roughly is your price range?<br>

<br /> Most Mamiya MF lenses are dirt cheap, and all can be used on both the manual focus as well as auto focus bodies.<br>

The original AF bodies are not that expensive, and include many conveniences such as AE metering, film advance, LCD both inside the viewfinder as well as a top panel. Plus, they have custom functions you can set. The downside is that you can't "break down" the camera body - it's all integrated so the weight you get...is the weight you get ;-)<br>

AFD and AFDII/II variants are a bit more pricey.<br>

An AF standard lens for the Mamiya isn't that expensive either - perhaps you could look at a Mamiya AF "kit" from KEH.</p>

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<p>the mamiya 645 pro tl is the way to go for price vs quality. and if you want to take advantage of this particular cameras greatest feature, buy the 80mm f/1.9 with it. except for a hassy, this is as fast a lens as you will ever get in medium format. its the reason i bought the Mamiya in 645 size. that lens alone overcomes this cams inherent weakness of slow shutter speed flash sync. who needs flash if you can shoot at f/1.9 and push Tri-X to 1600 and still get immaculate images. but then I'm talking from a Candid Photographer's point of view. It really depends on what type of photography you like to shoot.....and that, we have not heard from you yet.</p>
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<blockquote>

<p>If I was buying a Mamiya 645 I would buy a super, pro or pro TL and avoid the older ones. My main logic is that these bodies are newer and the better built (winder gears etc...).</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Philip, not necessarily newer, and not necessarily better built! The Pro/ProTL <em>are </em> newer than the M645/J/1000s, and at least as well built. But production of the "old" 1000s overlapped with the production of the "new" Super for about 5 years ('85-'90), and the Super was discontinued not very long afterwards ('93), so there are actually some 1000s bodies which are newer than some Super bodies.</p>

<p>The Super is also known to have issues in the ruggedness department - not so much build quality as design quality - e.g. the strength of some of the gearing, and the shutter life. For instance, check this thread: http://www.photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/00IntT<br>

These issues were addressed with the introduction of the Pro. But while the earlier models like the 1000s can sometimes be encountered with wear and tear issues affecting its winding mechanism etc., I do not believe that the Super is any better. I would rather take my chance with a 1000s which <em>might</em> develop an issue than a Super which <em>has</em> inherent design weaknesses. (And I simply prefer the capabilities of the 1000s to the Super, for the reasons I stated in my earlier post). </p>

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<p>Ray's logic works--provided you can nail the overlap serial #s, which strikes me as unlikely, if not impossible. Likewise, age isn't always a reliable index of mileage. Smoked ProTLs likely won't run as long as amateur-owned metal M645s. The exception proving the rule might sum up the bum rap Supers got for their reputed baked-in fragility. Low-mileage Supers(I've got 2)shouldn't cause problems, though worked-to-death, ugly examples I've seen recently were plainly circling the drain.</p>
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<p>One comment...the newer AF bodies don't work as well with the older MF lenses.<br>

1. You have to open-up focus, and stop-down meter. This can be a problem in certain conditions. You get focus confirmation, but you need it because the focusing screen is harder to use than with the older cameras. So you have to focus wide open, then manually roll the aperture to your selected stop. Lather, rinse, repeat.<br>

2. You cannot use the leaf shutter lenses. (The sync is 1/125, though...so no big loss).<br>

This is probably why the last Pros are worth almost as much as the 645AF's. Sometimes I get tempted to get a 1000S to drive my MF lenses, if for no other reason than to enjoy the focusing. :-)<br>

Greg</p>

 

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