Couple wanting to pay balance after they see the pictures,help

<p>I always have my fees paid in full three weeks before the ceremony. I never change this billing practice and consequently I have had no problems. Have I missed out on some weddings because of my policy... probably. However, I photograph much better with money in my pocket!</p>

<p>The comments are interesting. If you don't provide them the images or prints, you won't have a problem. So what I recommend, is to have a session at a fee where you use a projector to project the images after the wedding. Don't provide any images in digital or print.</p>

<p>Wish them good luck and move on.</p>

<p>There is no legally-enforceable contract between you and them unless they agree to be bound by the contract as well, and the contract terms require them to pay you up front. They no pay on time, you no obligated to show up.</p>

<p>Don't take my word for it; ask a lawyer.</p>

<p ><strong><em>Just for clarity of my second point:</em></strong></p>

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<p ><strong><em>"There is no legally-enforceable contract between you and them unless they agree to be bound by the contract as well"</em></strong> . . . perhaps, but I would still like an answer to my question, as the point I wanted to make, was not what was enforceable (or not), but rather about suggesting what is good business procedure.</p>

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<p >Keeping it really simple and not moving to any specific legalese or big debate, as just one example:</p>

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<p >If sent signed, the contract, IMO, is a sword of Damocles - inhibiting the signatory (Photographer) from booking the date and time with another client - he completely looses all leverage in this regard.</p>

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<p >WW </p>

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<p><strong>HELLZ NO</strong> .<br>

Not sure what you have in your contract, but with mine and studios I shoot for - 25% deposit is due at signing the contact, the second 25% is due at the actual gig. The rest of the payment is a must at the pickup of proofs. Clients can pay in full in advance if choose to.<br>

This isn't the actual wording but you get the idea...<br>

Adam</p>

<p>Absolutely NOT. Payment in full, before the wedding. The studio that I worked for some years ago, had a cupboard half full of unpaid for albums, it took months to chase down final payment. A number of times the couples were no longer together, making it even more difficult and costly; read legal fees. If they are bargaining now, imagine what it will be like after the wedding. Refund their deposit and move on, the job will not be worth the aggravation.</p>

If I don't get the final payment by the end of the reception I don't print the proofs, nor do I give out any form of CD's or DVD's.

 

I've been in business to long to play these mind games. I've worked with clients that tell me they are short on funds, then I'll still shoot the wedding, but they can't receive anything until the contract has been met in full. So far, I've had no issues, which is a lot of weddings since 1987.

 

Run your business based on your contract, with little or no exceptions, unless it is agreed upon with you and the client - in writing, as an amendment to your contract, with dates and a signed agreement, so this holds up in court.

<p><em>There is no legally-enforceable contract between you and them unless they agree to be bound by the contract as well, and the contract terms require them to pay you up front. They no pay on time, you no obligated to show up.</em><br>

<em></em><br>

In the absence of clearly and <strong>properly articulated </strong>terms saying that one is not bound to show up in the event of even a single late payment, this is an extremely dangerous position to hold. Just because a contract requires up front payment doesn't necessarily mean the the photographer's obligations are unenforcable. The consequences and remedies need to be addressed with extreme care if backing out for any non-payment is intended.</p>

<p>I wanted to clarify that we do not produce any tangibles we incur costs on until the balance is paid. As I said, we take a non-refundable $500 deposit up front, which is a variable percentage based on chosen package. We do not require the remaining balance paid until within 14 days after the wedding. In that time, no tangibles have been produced; prints, albums, etc...</p>

<p>The delivery of products is also clearly outlined in our contract. But, if a client defaults, all we are out is the time we spent at the wedding and some chair time sitting at the computer doing post production.</p>

<p>Our contract guarantees a service will be provided in exchange for payment. Of course, we like our clients to be 100% happy with their images, and we do all we can to ensure that happens, but, again, our contract is a contract to<strong> <em>provide a service</em> </strong> . There is no mention of "you can pay if you like your images." When you do that, you're walking a slippery slope. Trust me; give them an inch and they'll take a mile.</p>

<p>Each person runs their business to their liking and satisfaction. If you truly feel weird about the offer the potential client put on the table Say No. I request 50% deposit at time of signinh of contract and the balance no later than 30 days before the wedding. I do not want to have to wait around or hunt anyone down day of the wedding to get my money, nor do I want to NOT be paid for all the hard work that goes into successfully photographing a wedding. Nor do I want to run the risk of the couple running out of money (which happens more times than not) and me not getting paid or getting the sob story of "Oh we ran out of money, can we pay you when you deliver" Nope. So good luck in deciding which works best for you and like they say Follow your gut instinct. ciao</p>

<p>Thanks for all your advise and comments!!! I really appreciate it!<br>

William W- No, I did not sent a signed contract. I haven't sent a contract at all. What I was trying to explain is that the whole reason for having a contract is to have certainty that either party is going to fullfil their obligations, if not they can be held responsible legally. So, I guess I don't really know if he is "really" hesitant about the finished product or if he just wants to have leverage to refuse to pay the full amount later. I hope this makes sense.<br>

The whole situation really makes me nervous, so I sent them an email saying that I will not accomodate their requests. That I can only accept the terms that we had already established at our meeting. I am still waiting for a response from them.<br>

I will keep you posted,<br>

Thanks again! You guys are the best!</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

<p>Please come back here and let us know how it turns out. I know I will be wondering :-)</p>

<p>How much do you want the business? In our current economic environment, many vendors and venues are going out of business. If all was paid up front, the customer could be left without recourse so that is unfortunately going to become more common as time goes on. Why not agree that you will agree to the payment terms based on the following example: 10% retainer (non refundable) remainder to be placed in an escrow account 2 weeks prior to wedding. Cancellation of contract carries a 25% penalty. This way you can satisfy all the issues and instill confidence. BTW, if you are delivering an album, why not allow them to purchase the proofs for 50% of the balance with the remainder being paid upon delivery of the album? Of course I would suggest you charge an additional deposit based on the value of the album prior to ordering.</p>

<p ><em><strong>I did not [send] a signed contract. I haven't sent a contract at all. . . I hope this makes sense. </strong></em>Yes, thank you for explaining.</p>

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<p ><em><strong>The whole situation really makes me nervous. </strong></em>Not necessary. Nervousness is an un-necessary (but understandable) emotion, which may cloud clear thinking and best business practice.<em><strong> </strong></em></p>

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<p ><em><strong>I sent them an email saying that I will not [accommodate] their requests. That I can only accept the terms that we had already established at our meeting. I am still waiting for a response from them. </strong></em>IMO a good procedure at this point in time. Doing that that should calm the nerves. Although I a not a fan of email, I would rather a face to face; with a follow-up confirmation of the meeting in an hard copy document (not an email). </p>

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<p >Depending upon how far out the date is, I would be making it clear that the day and time is not "reserved", without being un-necessarily pushy, but, firm polite and businesslike. In this regard I suggest you already have a plan as to how long you will allow to receive their reply, before you quit.</p>

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WW</p>

<p>Firstly - my view on this is tainted by the fact that I don't earn anything from Photography.</p><p>But - I'm an architect, and to some extent the issue is the same in our profession. We produce a design and drawings, but will be paid after completion and hand over of drawings - although at key stages. We run the exact same risk, clients not being happy with the design, get the drawings then refuse to pay. Sure we can sue for payment and retain copyright, but that is not disimilar from trying to claim a photographic fee after the work has been completed.</p><p>If we tried to obtain a fee in advance - we would sink. In this respect, photography is pretty unusual - and I understand a reticience amongst clients to pay 100% in advance of the day.</p><p>Surely a comprimise is there to have part payment before, with the remainder after the event - particularly if there is a Contract in place requiring the payment.</p><p>Martin</p>

<p><em>if a client defaults, all we are out is the time we spent at the wedding and some chair time sitting at the computer doing post production.</em><br /><em></em><br />Some photographers prefer to be paid fully, instead of partially, for spending time at a wedding and performing post production.</p>

<p><em>Why not agree that you will agree to the payment terms based on the following example: 10% retainer (non refundable) remainder to be placed in an escrow account 2 weeks prior to wedding. Cancellation of contract carries a 25% penalty. This way you can satisfy all the issues and instill confidence.</em><br /><em></em><br />Some photographers don't want to manage escrow accounts with the attendant hassles, fiduciary duties and practical invitation for a client to make a complaint since the money is in an account designed to accomodate the making of complaints. As to a 25% penalty, there is already one non refundable retainer. Its pointless to have a seperate "penalty" considering that it is essentially a seperate retainer with a fancier title. Only one retainer is needed. Just add them together at the beginning.</p>

<p><em>If we tried to obtain a fee in advance - we would sink. In this respect, photography is pretty unusual </em><br /><em></em><br />Architect services and not a good comparison to wedding photography services in this regard. Oral Surgeons, criminal defense lawyers and wedding vendors have more in common in that the clients are extremely motivated to obtain the services under time and other pressures. All promise the moon about paying the bill, and often mean it at the time, but once the desperately needed service is tendered, the excuses start flying and the bills go largely unpaid. That is why these industries require up front payments so much. There are other photographic services that do not have this same phenomenon. Perhaps they more closely resemble your architectual services. I don't know.</p>

<p>Surely a comprimise is there to have <em>part payment before, with the remainder after the event - particularly if there is a Contract in place requiring the payment.</em><br /><em></em><br />If having a contract in place requiring payment after the event meant wedding vendors would actually get the payment after event, then these type of discussions wouldn't even take place. Wedding vendors are amoung type that frequently get stiffed if they don't get paid in advance. That's just the way it is. Wedding photographers don't "sink" because they require advance payments up front because so many do. If they didn't, THEN they would sink.</p>

<p>I don't see that it is that different to architects - believe me, being stiffed on a fee is not unique to wedding photographers. It is similar to obtaining planning permission for a development, once achieved the architect is not in a position to rescind it - so it is a completed service, the client has the full benefit, and can withold the fee on the grounds of some minor quibble that they have plucked from the ether, and the architect is left with no chips to use other than resort to the courts and the terms of the Contract.</p>

<p>The other similarity is the subjective nature of the appreciation of the images / design. A lot of it comes down to the personal taste - whether the client (or their mother-in-law) 'likes' the photos or the design. The service can be executed, but quibbles remain over the quality of service that can become protracted and prevent full settlement.</p>

<p>I'm trying to think of similar professions here (may be different in the US) that require full payment prior to the service being executed. Very few come to mind (including wedding catering - my experience there has been part payment before - and full settlement after the event).</p>

<p>I'm just looking at it from a client perspective - and I would feel uneasy about parting with full payment prior to the wedding, for the exact same reason - fear of being stiffed by the photographer, surely it's a 2-way street on which a compromise can be reached.</p>

<p>But as I stated at the beginning, I don't earn money from photography - just looking for parallels.</p>

<p>Martin</p>

<p>Update:<br>

After I wrote them an email explaining that I would not deviate from the previous agreement, they came back with a new offer. Now, he wants to pay 50% 2 weeks before the wedding and the remaining 50% the day of the wedding in cash.<br>

I don't know what you guys think, but I am really not feeling comfortable with the whole situation. I am the one running the business not them. I feel that if I keep accomodating their demands it is going to become a nightmare.. .next thing they will want to shoot the pictures themselves!<br>

So, I am going to stick with what we agreed in the beginning and if they don't like it they can move on. Sometimes you have to learn the hard way and that what I feel happened to me.<br>

Thanks for all your suggestions/support! It is very appreciated!</p>

 

<p>I'd reiterate my policies about payment if it were me.</p>

<p>I see no reason to feel uncomfortable, as long as they honor your policies. They're trying to negotiate. Nothing wrong with that. I'd let them know that my policies concerning payment are non-negotiable. "Here's what I require. What do you need from me, other than changing the payment plan, to feel more comfortable?"</p>

<p>Perhaps you can't reach agreement with this couple. Then part with no hard feelings. It's not personal. It's just business. I wouldn't be so quick to write them off quite yet. They don't seem to be unreasonable based on your posts.</p>

<p>Eric</p>

<p ><strong><em>"Now, he wants to pay 50% 2 weeks before the wedding and the remaining 50% the day of the wedding in cash."</em></strong></p>

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<p >“We have received your counter offer as to how you would like payments to proceed and we understand your point of view, but we wish to advise that we are unable to rework our standard contract and our usual payment schedule, to accommodate your one-off, specific requests. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >We therefore formally advise that [insert date] and [insert time] are now vacant. </p>

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<p >It is possible that you will find another Wedding Photographer who will accommodate your particular requirements, and although we don't know of any, we wish you well in your search and all the best for your upcoming Wedding.</p>

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<p >Yours faithfully,</p>

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<p >Etc" </p>

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<p>[Aside] <em><strong>"I'm trying to think of similar professions here (may be different in the US) that require full payment prior to the service being executed."</strong></em></p>

<p>Just about every time one buys goods or services "on-line" is a very large example of pro forma payment.</p>

<p>WW </p>

 

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<p>[Aside] <em><strong>"I'm trying to think of similar professions here (may be different in the US) that require full payment prior to the service being executed."</strong></em><br /> Just about every time one buys goods or services "on-line" is a very large example of pro forma payment.<br /> WW</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br /> Exactly. When I get business cards made up, I pay in advance (regardless of whether I am buying online or from a local printer). When my wife and I were married last year, we had to pay for the invitations at the time of ordering.</p>

<p>Caterers and banquet halls are even stricter. My wife's friend was married two years ago and they had invited (and paid for, in advance) 150 guests. Unbeknownst to the couple, the groom's mother had invited 25 other people, figuring she could pay the reception hall the following day or so. Before the venue would even serve appetizers, they made the couple (they had signed the contract) pay for the extra 25 guests. So the couple had to start opening the cards to find enough cash (venue wouldn't take a check on the day of the event) to pay for the extra people.</p>

<p><em>I'm trying to think of similar professions here (may be different in the US) that require full payment prior to the service being executed. Very few come to mind</em><br>

<em> </em><br>

I already provided a couple. Also, Have you ever gone to see a movie, concert or sport event? Gone to College? Flown on an airplane, bus or train? Bought insurance coverage? Other industries would have up front fees if they didn't have leins like auto mechanics or get payments from the transactions at issue like realtors and many financial professionals. If architects never adopted an industry wide practice to protect themselves, that doesn't suggest that wedding photographers should suffer a similar fate.</p>

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<p>We charge a half deposit, and the balance is due 60 days before the wedding, maybe 30 days if they book really really close to the date. There is signifigant amount of work and cost that goes into the prep for a wedding, and in the packages, so to protect ourselves and the work we put in, the balances are collected well in advance of the actual day. We have never had to chase down anyone on the day of, or had a balance not paid because they know their payment is what guarantees we will be there. We've never had a problem or a complaint about it, and if we did, I imagine we will walk away. I may take two payments on the deposit if they are really in a jam, but that's about it.<br>

This is your company, not a lemonade stand, make your policies and stick to them, it will protect you and your business.</p>

<p>I would politely decline to do their wedding now. Return their deposit and thank them for their interest and move on. Be professional. Send them their deposit back in a certified check via Certified Mail, Return Receipt Requested. If asked why, just very politely explain that you've made all the exceptions that you feel comfortable with and apparently that's not good enough for them. They, therefore, have needs you will not be able to accommodate and don't want to interfere with them finding someone who can honor all their requests.</p>

<p>You have developed business practices that seem professional to start with. If you do not adhere to them, then you have no policies at all and nothing to fall back on. Treat everyone the same with your policies and while some may complain, you'll never get stuck holding the bag for a job or albums/photos you don't get fully paid for. Good luck.</p>