a day in court - an interesting story about a newbie photographer that was sued

I was in court the other day. Long story short, Porsche charged me for a part that was considered under warranty. I

won! Anyway, while there sitting, waiting to be called up I heard one case about an angry bride suing the

photographer. Needless to way my ears perked up.The judge made a comment about seeing a big increase in

lawsuits over phototgraphers. Turns out that the lady photographer was a beginner, had beautiful samples of past

weddings but she totally wrecked this poor brides day. The photographer lost the case but was also ordered to pay

up to $1500 for a reshoot, from a photographer of choice from the bride. I thought that was a very interestng. Never

heard of that happening. She also had to pay the bride for the total amount for her services, which was only $700,

plus up to $1500 for the retakes. The sad part was both parties were in tears, no one really won. The photographer

did not have a contract, probably why the bride got lucky and was awarded the $1500 for a reshoot.

 

The judge laid into the photographer a bit about her training and education. She said it was a hobby mainly taking

photos of her kids and was then asked by a few people from her church to take their wedding shots. Her training was

taking photos of her kids and now is a pro. The judge made some nasty comment about the word professional

usually means getting a degree, but anyone can call themselves a professional in this photo business. He continued

asking her questions about taxes, if she was declaring income of her tax returns. She said no. Thats when the judge

really got mad! He ordered her to get all of her papers in order and she cannot photograph anymore until she has her

papers in order added to this she has to show proof to the court clerk, who I guess gives the info to the judge.I'm not

sure how that works.

 

I read so many stories here on photo.net about first time wedding shooters taking on a real live wedding regardless if

it's for free, a family member, a friend, someone with little or no income, or for just a few bucks. I think we all started

out this way, shooting for a friend or something. I was lucky and took some classes and worked under a

photographer for free for about 2 years before taking my first shot as a pro. I was in the music business back then so

I had a good income and able to support myself.

 

I'm not makng any comments here, just reporting what happened. If people want to comment please do, I'd like to

find a way to help beginners make their passons in photography become a dream, not a nightmare; by doing quality

work at your first wedding and never have to worry about getting sued.

 

Maybe we at photo.net can come up with a list of basic poses, basic shots, and basic camera settings to get

beginners through a wedding. This can include books, dvd's anything to refer to newbee's. Any ideas?

<p>I think that the bride has to take some responsibility for booking someone who was obviously not cut out to do a wedding.<br>

I shadowed on a few weddings before branching out on my own, and on my first "lone gun" wedding I charged very very little, made sure the bride and groom knew UP FRONT that this was my 1st lone wedding, and studied my butt off before hand on lighting, posing, organization, etc. I also made sure I was familiar with the settings on my camera, etc.<br>

In addition, I was a regisitered business paying taxes prior to taking on any kind of paid work.<br>

I think people get very excited about jumping into the business. I did as well....but it shouldn't be at the expense of a person's big day. I didn't take on a wedding by myself until I felt 100% sure I could handle it. Since then I have 15 weddings under my belt in under a year and with each one I get more and more comfortable. But, I never let my guard down. I aim to stay professional and on top of my game.<br>

I feel bad when people get "taken", but one only has to peruse Craigslist to see the litany of $400 shooters out there desperately trying to turn their camera into money. It seems to be the same folks who believe the camera does all the work on it's own with no skill required from the user.</p>

 

<p>Interesting story, Bob. There really are no checks and balances on this industry. Anyone with a kit Nikon and a couple of memory cards can call themselves a pro and promote themselves as anything. In lieu of a government agency taking over our industry and regulating everything (with this administration, don't be surprised) we can help our newbie bretheren with some good advice. A) Shoot with an established pro and learn the ropes. B) Don't shoot ANYTHING without a contract, even if you're not charging for it. C) Make sure your client knows what you can and can't do. Make sure YOU do too. Never oversell yourself.</p>

Betty, I've been doing this since 1987, frankly I never let my guard down either. I'm not nervous , but the first thing I do when I get back to the studio or home, if it's late, is upload everything to 3 hard drives. If I don't do this I can't sleep at night. Weird, but true.

 

Steve I totally agree. Learn the basics, have a contract, I'm still picking up new ideas all of time.

<p>Steve, that is so much ture, explain what U CAN, WILL do and what U wont.<br>

Recently, I was taking a pic of this designer (for a magazine) and I dont retouch there as I dont know the colour management for the print.<br>

Also, I informed her that I wont retouch, I do take pictures, but I dont do high end fashion for Vogue that I retouch face for 4 hours.Anyway, I cant retouch like a pro and it is not my hobby to rtx for hours. Obviously the the graphic designer didt rtx that picture much and result was pretty bad. <br /> I got blame for being not professional.<br>

I see her point, but I did explain, I dont and I wont retouch her picture...</p>

<p> </p>

<p>It strikes me, Bob, that the list of basics you mention (much of which has already been provided on this site in one form or another) may almost do more harm than good. That is, in the sense that someone who doesn't have their basic skills (as a photographer, never mind a wedding pro) down will just feel that much more comfortable taking on such gigs because they <em>feel</em> informed. Nothing can replace assisting and <em>doing</em>. The trick is to avoid the sort of expectations that the bride-in-court had.<br /><br />I've been shooting for a long time now, in one form or another - but consider weddings to be something like going to the moon or handling dangerous snakes. Not for me! I'm not the least worried about the technical aspects and the hustle that's involved, but know that the social rhythms take practical work to master. Years of it.<br /><br />I'm always a little amazed that there are people for whom the social customs aren't at all a concern (because they just <em>love</em> weddings!), and who just can't worry themselves about their technical and creative chops. Of course, I'm also amazed that there are brides who will hire based on some sample images, and not a long list of solid personal recommendations.<br /><br />Anyway, fascinating anecdote, Bob.<br /><br />Just so happens I was sitting in a coffee shop this morning, and couldn't avoid listening to two ladies sitting next to me. They were expressing supreme frustration over the photographer they'd each hired to handle Bar Mitzvah work and some related social gatherings. They loved him! "Nicest guy in the world!" But "everything comes out so <em>dark</em> in all of his shots." Turns out he's been shooting for over forty years, but just went digital, and is simply dumping memory cards to Costco, just as he used to hand film to a lab. No post-work on his part, and no interest in getting into it... and so neither mom could bring herself to even get an album assembled from the work he did. They felt lost.<br /><br />I finally gave in and leaned over to get involved in the conversation (will I <em>never</em> learn), and recommended that they involve the services of a professional retoucher who might be able to salvage the work... or have a pro lab tackle the whole thing, including album creation.<br /><br />My point: gotta get <em>recent</em> recommendations/testimonials pulled together to show people. Something that reflects your current skills and workflow, and get the prospective customer a real live human customer or three to talk to as a reference and to set expectations. And that all important contract. Otherwise it's such a minefield.</p>

<p>Bob, we're the same there. As soon as I get home for a wedding I back up, then back up again. I'm completely insane about backing up my work. My worst fear is I lose anything.</p>

<p><strong>Caveat emptor.</strong></p>

<p>This stuff happens all the time, and not just in photography. And the reason why it happens is not for lack of a professional oversight body, but because consumers are ignorant.</p>

<p>Today's consumer is tomorrow's "pro." They are two sides of the same coin because both groups think that photography is something anybody (including themselves) can just pick up and make a steady income.</p>

<p>As for the reporting of income and the lack of paperwork and organization, the judge was absolutely correct for chewing that photographer out. I'd be pissed too! If it's "just a hobby," why are you charging hundreds of dollars a shoot? Why are you presenting yourself as more competent than you actually are?</p>

<p>Frankly, the bride has no right to cry. She lost that right when she thought she could get a level of service above and beyond the bargain basement price she paid the photographer. If I'm going to chronicle one of the most important days in my life, I sure as hell am not going to choose that moment to go bargain hunting!</p>

<p>And the photographer? She got what she deserved. You don't go into business for yourself and think that just because you're starting out, you're magically exempted from having to pay taxes and having your house in order. It smacks of willful ignorance.</p>

<p>The circumstances and findings in this case would not have been substantively different had there been a professional organization overseeing the credentialing of photographers, because it's not like the consumer knows or even cares to look at someone's credentials when they select such services. The advent and prevalence of high-resolution, professional-level digital bodies at lower prices has only compounded the misperception that anybody can just drop a few thousand and instantly go into business taking photos.</p>

<p>the photographer should have done some basic homework and drafted a contract. it seems to me that she was just lazy to do her due digilence of how to run a biz and simply too greedy in seeing $$.<br>

as for the bride, there are just too many of these brides who blames everything on everyone else but herself. these days everyone is trying to save a buck on their weddings and everyone's favorite when it comes to photography is craigslist or get uncle bob to do it for free.<br>

i wonder how many sad stories like these there are for one of those perfect budget weddings stories.</p>

 

I got the feeling that this lady is mainly a housewife taking care of her kids then someone said you taking nice pictures, will you photograph a friend from our church? I almost had the feeling that she was very willingly dragged into photography, because her friends think she's a good photographer and it hasn't gotten to the point of applying for all of the city and state permits. By the way the samples she showed the judge were decent shots, but the lady suing her, those shots were pretty bad. I call them rejected candids, stuff we would never show our clients. I guess she brought the good samples in to show the judge in her defense that she's a good photographer. That didn't fly as we all now know.

 

Anyway, back to the post, can the moderator pick a few or several photographers and have a list, photo samples, post a basic contract, gear equipment, must stuff needed for a wedding so we can simply point newbies to 1 given site. In some ways this would help weed out the constant first time wedding questions. Any thoughts? Lets face it, people are even too lazy to google, so this way we can point them to places like Josh's gear site.

<p>I would also like to add that in addition to business license, paying taxes, to also join PPA, get liability insurance, gain education and experience, study your brains out, continually practice and learn more. It certainly sounds like the photographer in the courtroom had no business attempting to go pro yet.</p>

<p>The blame doesn't lie with the bride. Weddings are a one-time event. The "photographer" is responsible for being properly prepared in every way including in his/her business practices. I've commented before that it's just not right to photograph a wedding if you're inexperienced and doing it for a lesser fee, even if the bride knows this upfront just isn't right. Then I read comments about how they're providing a service, otherwise the bride's mother would have photographed the wedding.<br>

If you want to experiment, then shoot portraits, not weddings....-Aimee</p>

<p>i don't see why joining any associations like ppa or wppi is a requirement.<br /> there are plenty of great photographers that don't belong to any.<br /> granted, in the beginning belonging to one can get you business cuz it creates the illusion that you are dedicated in the profession. but to me paying a monthly fee just so you can put "member of PPA" in your website doesn't really grant you photography superpowers.. anyone can do that.<br /> if you are joining them for their "perks" then that is one thing, but don't join just for sake of joining. any uncle bob can do that. it does not mean that you become a pro by doing it.</p>

<p>I am kind of thinking that if this photographer was able to get a book of good shots together and establish a small reputation among friends & family and her church, then she was a couple of events past the "just getting started" stage. Far enough along to consider paying $100+ for a license to do business in that city. If she's going to charge for her work, and work for people who aren't her best buddies, she should know better than to do that under the table. It is not safe for her, for the customer, or worth the tax risk. But I guess she learned that the hard way.</p>

<p>Sounds like some examples of good, basic contracts would have helped her, along wtih a trip to the city business office. </p>

<p>You could add understanding when/if you must attach sales tax, and where you can learn about your locality's business tax code (links would be good) to your list.</p>

<p>I agree with Matt. A little bit of knowledge which inflates false confidence can be quite damaging, since there is no way to include every single bit of practical knowledge gained from years of experience in a document or two.</p>

<p>With this kind of business, you either have the common sense to know what you don't know and when you are ready, or you don't. Also, there are many different paths toward the same goal. Whether one ends up being sued in court is not something preventable by a 'one size fits all' set of informational articles, unfortunately.</p>

<p>I got into this business full time a couple of years ago and prior to that I owned a corporate training and consulting company that specialized in helping companies orgainze themselve sto be professional and move to the next level. What I did when I decided to hang my shingle out as a photographer was 1. join PPA 2. Get Liability Insurance 3. Get a mentor 4. Get educated on business of the business (tax id, contracts, etc.) -- I think you can be a great photographer and have real talent yet no business sense and they learn from their mistakes but survive. And then there are those who someone told them they were good, they have no business sense and they get themselves into serious trouble. I really feel sad for these people as they have no sense of self editing. Part of our business is to know your limitations and to know when to say no. It is unfortunate that some people let their lack of self knowlege and business knowelge get lost behind their ego. </p>

<p><em>"Anyway, back to the post, can the moderator pick a few or several photographers and have a list, photo samples, post a basic contract, gear equipment, must stuff needed for a wedding so we can simply point newbies to 1 given site. In some ways this would help weed out the constant first time wedding questions. Any thoughts? Lets face it, people are even too lazy to google, so this way we can point them to places like Josh's gear site." -Bob</em><br>

<em></em><br>

While I think the forum can be a good place for people to get information, I frequently find myself cringing seeing the posts of newcomers that can't figure out what lens to buy next or asking for "tips" to shoot a wedding because they're still "new to the profession". Often, I see seasoned professionals "spoon-feeding" the newbie information (that they come by through experience & training) and the newbie is still so new that they don't appreciate (in a genuine sense) what they've been given. Occasionally they repay the poster with sarcasm, contempt, and/or snubbery. I refer posters to Josh's gear site just about daily. I just don't think it's a good idea to "spoon-feed" contract samples and proprietary information. I've also been criticized for suggesting that newcomers join PPA and/or WPPI and network with local established professionals (which is actually the most appropriate avenue to obtain the basic information that they really need). I also feel at times, that it's actually counter-productive to try to explain complex photographic technique via one, two, or three paragraphs of posting to a thread since the response attempts to impart the "Cliff notes" version. Newcomers are better served by doing their homework. Course all that's just my opinion.....I'm sure several Freshmen in their first year of the business will see things differently......and they'll express their opinions freely as well.</p>

<p>I think a lot of assumptions are being made about photographers new to the game based on a few bad apples.<br>

Look at Jasmine Star, and then tell me a newbie can't get it done. I think many dinosaurs who refuse to change with the times and accept that things can be done differently are just as ire-inducing as a newbie trying to make it work.<br>

There are many falsehoods being thrown about as absolutes.<br>

No, you do not need a degree or schooling to be good at this. In fact, in could hinder your artistic vision.<br>

No, you do not need to be a member of any PPA/WPPI unless you WANT to. It's something that may not be beneficial for every person. I find WPPI beneficial, but really...being a member doesn't make anyone a "professional"...all it means is they can pay their dues on time.<br>

I don't see people snubbing anyone for their advice on here, but the underlying passive aggressive nature of many responses could yield a not-so-friendly response. That's the nature of the game.<br>

I see no good reason not to help out a fellow photographer that shows promise outside of percieved threat. Honestly....we're all here for the same reason, our love of photography. The ongoing snobbery and "cringing" is pointless. Even seasoned vets should be asking questions and improving their skills. It's an ever-growing business. You will NEVER know it all, no matter how long you've been in the game.<br>

So there's your other side of the coin.</p>

Everyone has made some excellent points. Some people seem frustrated, others want to help, but have no idea how to help a newbie.

 

Maybe MaryBall can advise us with some of her keen ideas.

<p>Folks, let's not get into the newbie/dinosaur debate again. We all have opinions and viewpoints, and we all are entitled to have them. Bob simply described his experience and suggested we have a central place for newbies, which would have articles about the various aspects of being a wedding photographer, particularly the info that gets asked about most often.</p>

<p>On the surface, it is a good idea, and I, for one, would be happy to contribute. However, there are a few wrinkles. First, the comment made above by Matt--a newbie, having read the articles, can get the idea they now know enough to charge ahead, when they might not. No article is going to substitute for judgement honed from experience. Second, who gets to say what is the 'correct' method of handling a situation where there may be multiple solutions? Lastly, people being the way they are--I would predict that some newbies, being pointed to the stack of articles, will not read them or won't understand them or bother to try to understand them, and still go out without being prepared. As I said above, people are different and they've always been different. The newbies who have the motivation to succeed will do so, regardless. The ones who don't prepare themselves will still charge ahead and run into trouble, whether we post articles or not.</p>

<p>Photo.net currently has an archive of threads categorized by subject. If someone is too lazy to search for and read what is easy to find, I don't know what else we can do.</p>

<p>I think this post underscores a point that photographers that are new to the business not only need help with the technical parts, but even more so, need help getting their 'business' in order. There is really no such thing as being a photographer 'on the side.' If you are making more than $800 a year (I think that's the number), you need to pay taxes. In most states, if you're doing business as anybody othe than your name (even John Smith Photography), you need to register with the state. And as this photographer learned, you need to be insured, both on your equipment (homeowners insurance won't cover equipment used for business purposes), and liability, in case you do get sued either for bad photos, or for an accident at a wedding.<br>

I am actually helping a young photographer out who is in photo school and is starting out shooting portraits. While I can teach her technical skills, I feel a greater responsibility to teach her to charge a decent price for her services, to register her business, to put money aside to pay for taxes, equipment upgrades, and an emergency fund if equipment breaks.<br>

I think a lot of people think anybody can be a photographer because they don't see the work that goes on behind the scenes, and they don't understand the difference between having some good photos out of hundreds taken, and being able to get a good photo of a split second moment, in a dim room, with flourescent lighting, and moving subjects, handle hundreds of wedding guests, a disorganized wedding party, a stressed bride, a groom that doesn't want to stick around for photos, an overbearing MOB, a drunk uncle, wired kids, and a sudden afternoon rain shower.<br>

If this photographer had a contract, it probably wouldn't have been a surefire win, but it definitely would have helped, and if she could have proven she was a pro, and the work she presented the client with was comparable to the work in her portfolio and that was delivered to other clients, she may have had a chance. </p>

Thanks Nadine and A Davis, also I'd like to thank everyone for responding. I have a bad feeling here that we all would like to help, but it's simply too big of a project to work.

 

I didn't want to bring up frustration, as you all know, just wanted to do something to help new photographers. Although my intentions are to get photographers off to their first successful wedding it seems as though I'm on the wrong track here and even if the moderators opened a new section devoted to beginning wedding photography it could actually cause more problems, such as someone buying a new camera, reading a few threads and then shooting a wedding without any type of practice will surely cause grief to everyone involved.

<p>This collection of articles is already on P-net: <a href="http://www.photo.net/learn/wedding/">http://www.photo.net/learn/wedding/</a> once you combine that with all the old archived posts, how much easier could it be?</p>

<p>I think the best thing we can do to help enthusiastic and well-meaning newcomers is to gently point out that, as David Schilling has said, it is a long road requiring dedication, a substantial and varied skillset, and tenacity. Of course there are some very talented amateurs around, but generally they are not new to photography in general. I would always reiterate the value of assisting a pro for a few months before considering one's own ventures. Putting together a section to help newbies shoot a wedding does, in my opinion, add to the widespread notion that anybody can go out and do this if armed with decent equipment and a few hours reading around a forum. </p>

<p>Clearly the lady Bob encountered in Court was not equipped to take on a wedding, and should not have done so. </p>

<p>Lastly, I must commed Bob on his success with Porsche. I know how you feel. Whenever I deal with them I have the sensation of being a salmon in the jaws of a bear Well done on that. </p>

 

<p>Let's be clear here...</p>

<p>Newcomers who are trying to 'start' a business are first very nicely and helpfully counseled to assist, read, take classes, read the forums and practice. I can remember on more than one occasion an honest but civil assessment that the person was charging too much to which the recipients promptly lowered prices. I remember other times when a few decided to wait until they were ready.<br>

As the newcomer progresses - questions come up and people here are more than happy to respond. The questions get more specific and I think certain people here do an awesome job at explaining the particulars and technical information. </p>

<p>I've seen newbies improve and go on to win contests in WPJA and become fantastic photographers. I've seen some newbies with an eye and some work that is even better than 'some' seasoned pros. Maybe they need a few pointers because they have the eye but not some of the technical knowledge but that's what we're here for. I sometimes check the work of a 'newbie' and then go back and look at the stern words that are being given and I see people are wrongly assuming the person isn't ready because they're asking an 'obvious' question. Take a look at the work first before assuming that. Some people call themselves a 'newbie' but have been shooting friends and family for 2-3 years and have outstanding work. <br>

What we want to be careful of here is the newbie that is asking about photographing a friend's or relative's wedding in cases where a pro will not be hired at all. In those cases a little advice is better than none... I'd like to see people not jump to conclusions and give answers telling them to hire a pro or don't do it.<br>

Granted, there are some that scare you right to death. The woman in the court case is a great example. I'll bet she never came on photo.net to ask advice ;-) If she had - she might have done a better job as well as had a contract. After we finished with her - she might have offered her services for free and would have been honest about her experience.<br>

In some cases, we are here to caution someone very strongly when they don't have enough experience. But many times people need to ask a question and get answers to their particular question/equipment etc.. and frankly it is easier to ask here than wade through tons of threads - some of which are not titled very well to reveal what the info in that thread is. <br>

This forum is here for newcomers and pros alike. There is no such thing as a stupid question. Well, maybe - but we'll still help people without being rude -- as long as photo.net exists.<br>

If some are unhappy with 'all the newbie questions" - just pass. You don't have to answer the OP's question.</p>