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Safe Sync is B.S., Let's See The Proof of a Fried Camera?


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<p>my point of contention is thus; everyone says you must use a safesync w/ your dslr when hard wiring to a strobe (norman, dyna, speedo) pack otherwise "you will fry your camera". now i started asking everyone i know in the business; "do you know 1st hand of anyone actually frying their dslr this way?" <em> the answer i resoundingly received was, "well...no".</em><br>

therefore i am asking this; <em><strong>has anyone actually fried their camera this way? please, only 1st hand accounts of this.</strong> </em> no "i heard etc" please. i spoke to an individual that is beyond knowledgeable in the bis regarding this & he says it's b.s.<br>

so let's hear it straight from the source? anyone, anyone?<br>

sincerely,<br /> pj<br>

p.s. 1st time poster here but i am a 16 year creative veteran, have shot commercially across the country etc. etc. etc. blah, blah, blah...</p>

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<p>[[now i started asking everyone i know in the business; "do you know 1st hand of anyone actually frying their dslr this way?"]]</p>

<p>How many of those people that you talked to are not using a safesync?</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>ron, i feel that's a little off topic. <br>

<em><strong>s</strong> <strong>omeone somewhere must have done it if it's the big no no that we're led to believe? </strong> </em> <strong>my quest is to find this person</strong> , they must exist since it's been built up so much by photo-geeks? i know a couple guys who know many many pros that've been around for decades & i have yet to actually find this person who has fried their camera this way.<br>

i've been running a canon this way w/ no probs, have buddies running other systems w/ no probs hard wired straight to the pack.<br>

do you personally know of anyone who has fried their camera this way? neither do I. i call B.S. on it.</p>

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<p>Even if we can't find anybody who has actually fried their camera with an old strobe, it may only prove that those who want to use such things so have heard the tale, as I recall also disseminated by the manufacturers (who do not sell OLD strobes, of course), and have avoided doing so.</p>

<p>The insidious part of it which makes it a perfect viral story, true or not, is that the damage is supposed to be cumulative and sometimes slow acting in its effects--so just one successful use of an older high voltage strobe doesn't "prove" anything.</p>

<p>Wein is a nice company, so I don't mind having spent a few bucks for some magic charm to keep me safe from things that go zap in the dark. As the old vaudeville story goes, "It couldn't hoit!"</p>

<p>And it also gives you a connection and moves the flash up a little to avoid red-eye ;)</p>

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<p>"The insidious part of it which makes it a perfect viral story, true or not, is that the damage is supposed to be cumulative and sometimes slow acting in its effects--so just one successful use of an older high voltage strobe doesn't "prove" anything."<br>

Exactly my friend, I believe it is a viral story that is completely over sold for a several reasons; #1. A man who is very, very, knowledgable, builds packs, fixes old packs, has been around for 20 years says it's B.S. (he has no corp affiliation or reason to flub the truth, he doesn't fix camera or have a shop). #2. I've been doing it for some time, I'd say 400 trips on an old Norman (which I was specifically warned about) & my camera is fine. #3. We have yet to find a person who has actually damaged their camera this way? Where are they? I say they don't exist cause it's total B.S.</p>

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<p>I'll be interested to know as well.....I was told years ago that it was an invented problem, (by a camera technician), And I've used my Normans, and 285's etc for years with no precautionary devices.........And never a problem....still ya never know, I suppose.....</p>
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<p>OK. I don't have the camera, but I had a customer who fried his camera with an old Ascor studio strobe. Canon determined that the camera's circuits were subjected to a high power surge. Those of you who remember the Ascors know that they could fry a lot of things. I think they had some of the highest trigger voltage of any studio flash.</p>

<p>When the customer said that it fried his camera, I was hoping it would be a smoldering pile of melted plastic, metal and glass. Unfortunately, the camera was just dead.</p>

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<p>http://www.botzilla.com/photo/strobeVolts.html</p>

<p>Since it's been around as a discussion for a while, and it seems acknowledged by a variety of camera makers as potentially a problem, I guess one would be on their own to try it out. I do know this, I'm not going to try my Vivitar 365 on any of my new cameras (notwithstanding Maxxum shoe compatibility on some of them).</p>

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<p>It all comes down to what voltage the camera circuit was designed for. Some engineers are going to be a little more cautious, maybe, and put a clamping zener in there, and say "Hey, this is only good to 6 volts!" when in reality you can probably get away with going a few volts over. Other engineers aren't going to put the clamp in, and they are going to rely on the microcontroller to handle any overvoltage. In that case you still might be okay, for a while, but it really depends on a lot of factors you not only have no control over, you have no way of knowing what those factors are.</p>

<p>Fact is on those nice older cameras (like my OM-1) the "circuit" is just a piece of metal, and those old flashes that put out 100 volts, well, 100 volts isn't going to burn out the big chunk of metal bridging those contacts. Flash manufacturers could send any voltage down the line they wanted and they didn't have to worry about it because it was just a switch, a (comparatively) giant hunk of metal that could care less how many volts you threw at it.</p>

<p>But newer cameras don't have a physical switch, their switch is electronic, and it's more than likely wired right up to the Main Brain on the camera. If you over-volt one of those pins, well, the microcontroller is sinking current, right? Even if you have a clamp diode on there, I wouldn't trust it for more than a few volts over. Hit the protection circuitry day in and day out with overvoltage and it will fail. So if it fails or if it just isn't there, the microcontroller has to take those 100 volts, route it across the chip to its own ground pin, and sink it there. It might work a few times (depending on how much current you give it) but one day it will fail. If you're *lucky* you'll take out just the pin and you won't be able to use a flash with your camera ever again, but otherwise it will work. If you're not lucky, well, remember what I said about the microcontroller having to route that voltage across the chip to the ground pin? You're really risking that the voltage will leak into the Main Brain on its way to the ground pin and then your camera is toast. All this is true even if you're only giving the camera 30, or 12, or 7 volts, heck, even if you're only giving it 6.1 volts on a bad day.</p>

<p>P J is probably right in the sense that you can take the safe sync off your camera and fire the flash off a few times and have everything work right. But those switches are <strong>silicon</strong> and if you overvolt that npn junction enough times it WILL fail. I recall a poster a while back who had a safe sync that failed, and he didn't know it, and everything worked fine for a while and then <strong>blammo</strong> dead camera.</p>

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<p>I can't sday for certain what circuitry is used for firing flashes on electronic cameras but if I were designing it, I would use an opto-triac or opto-thyristor. This way, the camera electronics are isolated from the sync. voltage.<br /> Also one of these devices would be fine up to a few hundred volts. You could not find one which was rated only to 6 volts.<br /> I think it's mainly scaremongering by some manufacturers for two reasons:<br /> 1. I think they are worried that if you fit an old high voltage flash to the hotshoe, there is a danger that in sliding it in, the sync. contact may touch one of the other TTL contacts and damage a part of the circuit separate from the trigger circuit.<br /> 2. They want to sell more of their own brand flashes.</p>
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<p>ok, so far we've got 1 possible, likely, John T's case w/ the Ascor. although if it fried several other things it could be considered above the normal functioning of a studio strobe (i know i'm getty a little wishy-washy on that).<br>

& John W, i'm around 400 flashes on an EOS to older Norman 2000, hard wired via the PC. - 400 is not a few times.<br>

i think all the techno-talk & circuitry is just babble, no offense. i was curious specifically about PC to studio strobe power-packs & self contained heads only; norman 2000's, dynalite 1000's, speedo's, those type of setups.<br>

the other thing i have a problem with is that; manufacturers can put all this functions in dslr's, circuitry, etc. & they can't put a SafeSync feature in the camera? c'mon that's silly, you have to put this little hot-shoe extender on there? somethings a little off w/ that logic?</p>

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<p>I'm not saying that that specific Ascor fried other things, if you saw the guts of an Ascor studio flash of the late 60's and early 70's you'd see an extremely high power unit with a high trigger voltage. I don' t know the measured voltage. I know several flash repairmen who will not work on these units-and not just because they can't get parts. They are afraid of liability after the repair.<br>

But the fact is that it did fry a camera so trigger voltage can be an issue, which is the premise of your OP.</p>

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<p>*shrug* As I see it, it's simple. If I want to run an old flash with my 20D I'll go out and buy a Safe Sync. Because if Canon put the Safe Sync circuit into the camera anyway it would probably cost at least that much more. As of yet, I have not needed it, so I've saved the $.</p>

<p>PJ, good luck, because nothing I say is going to convince you. Please, PLEASE give us a follow up post when your camera dies.</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>"so let's hear it straight from the source? anyone, anyone?" - it does not matter at all.</p>

<p>Photographers are more of the intelligent part of society, and they would more likely avoid mistakes like that. If you try and destroy your camera, you possibly will be the first one ? or 1001 one ? who knows?</p>

<p> If they did fry their cameras, ... well, perhaps they prefer to keep it quiet ? Why anyone would reveal publicly to the world over the Internet their own stupidity ? </p>

<p>Since you say "i think all the techno-talk & circuitry is just babble," perhaps you do not deserve any rational answer, and as John stated: "because nothing I say is going to convince you".</p>

 

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<p>It may be overblown in the advertising and in photo boogeman lore, I will accept that part, PJ. But BS is too strong an assertion. Meaning,if you have a trigger circuit designed for 6 volts DC and you use a studio strobe that puts out 300 volts or more, you are braver than this one here. ( Join the Special Forces. They need you, sir. :-), you got cojones)</p>

<p>Seriously though, I like to believe ,innocently, manufacturers are not in a conspiracy on this one to sell their own flashes or those sixty buck adapters. (True, I don't see why Canon can't redesign to allow higher trigger voltage, bit higher would be nice,huh?.)</p>

<p>See the following photos of damaged contacts on the Paramount Cord company's web site. Would a nice old Bronx outfit want to BS us, really? I have not done any serious research on this old issue. Closest experiment. I did was blow out a 117 v radio in Manila years ago, after I plugged it in to 220 V (jet lagged,me). That made me nervous about voltage incompatibility in general. Check out the photos in middle of following page:<br /> http://www.paramountcords.com/vp.asp</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>P J;<br /> you seek a black and white simpleton answer to a complex issue.<br /> Some older strobes have their full DC voltage of the flash capacitor on the tigger cord; 300 to 600 volts DC on the ASA or PC or edison plug strobe sync cord.<br /> <br /> Thus it is conservative to give a simpleton question asker a conservative answer; it results in less loss of equipment; less liability; less warranty claims; less deaths with consumer stuff.<br /> <br /> All this dumbing down wanting black and white answers means manuals for consumer items remove the grey area wisdom(s) of the past; some duffus will ignore warnings; their egos cannot accept risks; thus they blame others. Thus repairs tricks of the trade; grey area issues get PURPOSELY removed from consumer items manauls ; and massive warnings are issued in a zillion languages.<br /> One can buy a solar cell car battery recharger for 9 bucks for car; it has warnings about jack stands; safety goggles; getting shocked; to reduce lawsuits; a source of income for many folks.<br /> <br /> The effect of an overvoltage situation on a semiconductor junction can be additive; with each event degrading the junction. Thus if some goober guy #1 uses a 1960's potato masher strobe on his dslr for a weekend and it works; his simpleton brain may declare that all is well on an internet board.<br /> <br /> Then Goober #2 with a black and white brain too reads that "it works" and blows up his dslr after a few months; and wants a free warranty repair. Xenon strobes were around for many decades that were designed for mechanical metal camera shutter contacts; with thousands of different models made. To declare that a dslr with a smeiconductor trigger circuit will work with all of these units is basically impossible; thus camera makers preach a conservative approach.<br /> <br /> Ever with dumb flashbulbs there are not always simpleton black and white answers folks want; firing one or two 50B's in parallel can hurt some dinky cameras; an not older ones<br /> <br /> Life is not some perfect Black and white thing; some of use ride bikes without helmets; play hockey without helmets; drink from garden hoses; load two rolls of 35mm 36exp back to back on one 36exp reel; push film or pull it; bush hog a field with a hedge trimmer; drive fast; do not use tripods all the time.</p>

<p>Look at other non black and white questions too; what is the exact overage in MPH one can go and not get a speeding ticket; how much can one cheat on ones taxes and not get caught; what number of days a film goes bad after the expire date? How about the daily question asked each day on photo.net; how BIG can I enlarge my Gooberflex dslr's image? What is the exact number of days a disc drive lives? How much more oil does a freight burn in one mile if a fly lands on a freight car; and the train is going 40 MPH and has 100 cars? How much water can one splash on a dsl before if fails?</p>

<p>Would folks be happier with a typical 1960's consumer item manual that included grey area wisdoms?</p>

<p>Customers we have had that have blown up their rebels with older strobes have the mindest that that the camera maker is to blame; when instruction books say no dice. Thus black and brains need conservative answers to reduce losses.</p>

<p>Buffering a cameras sync input is ancient; folks in the 1960's used SCR trigger circuits to buffer when one had many flash bulbs to fire; to avoid ruining a cameras switch contact.</p>

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<p>One can go about life and ignore warnings; climb up mountains with clotheslines; use parachutes past rated life. One can avoid buying a 21 buck chart, life preserver ; a compass and just use a GPS; Darwin has a way to weed out this thinking.<br>

Many folks want and seek black and white answers; is their two year old D76 good or bad? Is that 5 year old can of paint any good? A tooler might test it; a black and white brain wants exactitude; they cannot accept statistical issues; luck; randomness.; or even a test.<br>

<br /> Look at why most low end digital P&S and film P&S are not repaired; folks drop them; a circuit board or solder joint cracks; or the camera got wet. Look at why most all failed modern sync sockets fail; fatigue failure on PC socket or overvoltage.<br>

<br /> A black and white brain may ponder what exact height a camera maybe dropped; what the exact voltage fries the trigger circuit; what the exact number of pulls, snags, pluggings ruins a PC contact.; what is the exact number of shoes per woman; lures per fisherman; what number of clicks a Nikon D200 goes; how long does concrete last or 12Lb sledge hammer; or Zorki.<br>

<br /> With a mechanical switch contact the contact can fail with NOT enough current. One has to use better contact materials when one only has super wimpy current levels.</p>

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  • 2 weeks later...

<p>clearly you guys are afraid to answer the question directly. it's a yes or no question. what ALL but one of you have answered is; "no, I've never heard of anyone doing blowing up their camera that way." that's kind of odd because out of the 40 pro's i know none of them has either done it or heard of anyone doing it. & there's NO way something like that could be kept secret in the L.A. photo world, someone farts during a shoot & everyone knows about it by 5 oclock, c'mon.</p>

<p>my reference to "techno babble" is because you all have to throw a bunch of tech-talk out there because <em>you don't want to admit that you know of NO ONE who has done this?</em> aren't you all just a little curious as to whether it's BS or not? is the earth flat? if i sail toward the horizon will i fall off the edge of the earth?</p>

<p>black or white questions are the basis for logic & the law, that's why our judiciary focuses on just the facts, not long-winded diatribes about the merits of blah, blah, blah. & no offense but neurosurgeons, class action attorneys, ceo's & money-grubbing politicians are among the most intelligent people (not to mention the marketing guy who started the viral you'll-shoot-your-eye-out-esq rumor about safe syncs), photogs would probably fall somewhere in the middle & include myself in that category.</p>

<p>fired off my EOS again another 100+ pops & nothin' still working just fine!</p>

<p> </p>

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  • 6 months later...

<p>Hi PJ,<br>

Appreciate your efforts and the plain simple question you asked. I am an electronics engineer and work in the semicon industry. I recently brought an EOS camera and a Vivitar flash which gives a shock in the hotshoe (290 V). Despite repeated assurance from the seller that nothing will happen, I am still afraid to try it. Surfing the net only increased my paranoia.<br>

<br>

I am posting this here to make one thing clear. Will the camera fry or not fry depends on the camera circuit. If camera is designed for 6V and you put 20V, or if camera is designed for 25V and you put a 200V flash, it will burn the moment you turn on the flash PERIOD. No confusion. To say that it takes 200 firings, 1000 firings to burn the camera is B.S. <br>

It is another story if camera is designed for 250V and flash gives 280V. There is a simple test to make it clear. If you touch both the hotshoe contacts of the flash while it is on, and you are getting a mild shock, then it is an old unprotected flash. Put your flash in the hotshoe, switch it on, wait for a minute, and take a pic. Repeat some 2 times. If flash is not firing, your camera's flash ckt is gone. If camera is not clicking, then your whole camera is gone. If all works, you are safe.<br>

The guy who sells cameras in here (he sells at least a dozen a day, all pros in Bangalore buys from him) repeatedly assured me that nothing will happen. So I feel (Sorry no solid answers) it should be ok. My colleague here uses a Nikon and a Vivitar flash that gives a shock. He is using it for years and his DSLR is still OK.<br>

So maybe a small chance of frying your camera still exists. Now you will ask me will I try my high voltage flash on my camera. NO sir. Cameras are damm costly here (may be I am poor), and I am triggering the high voltage flash with an optical slave now a days. Why take an unnecessary costly risk. I may do it one day after I have disassembled the camera and understood the circuit. </p>

 

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  • 4 months later...

<p>If you want to see proof, go to a repair shop and ask <em>them</em> for proof. A friend who is an electronics expert (and former pro photographer) was in a camera repair shop chatting up the repair technician, and the technician said he had a shelf full of Nikons that had all died due to the fact their owners had used them with their older high-voltage flashes without a safe-sync...this <strong>does</strong> happen. OK, this is still hearsay evidence, but it's the best I can provide, and the person was only warning me for my sake and had no agenda to sell me a safe-sync.</p>

<p>But to be a doubting Thomas, why do we have fuses in our houses and cars, why do we have GFCI outlets in bathrooms...will my house really catch on fire if I use too much electricity on a circuit, just because an expert said so? Are GFCIs really just overpriced outlets that don't do anything (I know what's in a GFCI and how it works, so I know it's worthwhile).</p>

<p>One person lives a clean life, exercises, dies at 30...another drinks heavily, smokes cigars, lives on to 100. Sometimes you get lucky!</p>

<p>P.J., not once in this thread did you say what camera you own...yes you said you use an "EOS" but you didn't say what model as the name "EOS" is used by the high-end as well as the low-end cameras...maybe yours has more built-in protection so it's safe, while someone here reading your posts with a base model EOS may follow your advice and blow their camera. You talk about the judiciary process, but you didn't give the whole truth!</p>

<p>And some camera makers <strong>do</strong> state in their manuals how much trigger voltage they can handle, the manual for the high-end camera of the brand I use states 400v, but that same manufacturer doesn't state what it is in their lower end cameras, you have to contact them to find that out that it's only 24v.</p>

<p>And I did blow my Sekonic using it with one of my high voltage flashes, as someone else in this thread did as well.</p>

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<p>A little late to the party but I have in my posession a dead Nikon N90 with the internal electronics completely fried from a too hot flash sync. Entire ICs were de-capped and the top housing cover was partially melted. I also had a Microsync radio slave receiver toasted by an old White Lightning 5000 monolight (before they started putting the warning label on them).</p>
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