Leica Forum: A Severe Case of the Flu

<p>I think there's a lot of "colored glasses" of one sort of another looking back. I went to an arbitrary forum page in 2004, it was pretty busy at the time. Of the 100 posts on that page, 22 were labeled "off-topic" and fourteen more were definitely off-topic but not labeled so. Of the rest, quite a few were picture posts. That says more than a third of the posts, at least at that point although many other pages look similar, were not really about forum topics. It is odd that picture posts have dropped so much, although I notice that many formerly active posters are now posting on flickr.</p>

<p>Off-topic now has its own forum, and people with questions, for example. about post-processing now understand there is more expertise on this subject in the Digital Darkroom Forum.</p>

<p>Some of the posters Andy enjoyed are no longer here because of personal attack issues. At some point, any entertainment value has to get weighed against the damage to conversation.</p>

<p>Grant went digital long before most people, several years before his posts on this forum he started using digital cameras and told me (in 1999 I think) that photography was going digital, which I didn't believe at the time. So much for my ability to predict the future.</p>

<p>Most of the people I personally know that shot with Leicas are now shooting with Canon or Nikon digital. I know a lot of San Francisco photographers and I've never met one using the M8. In fact, I've never even seen the M8. I occasionally see people with film Leicas, but that's pretty rare also. That's all anecdotal, but I'm pretty active here and figure I've seen a lot of what's out there.</p>

<p>What he said best is true.</p>

<p ><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=453741">Marc Williams - Franklin/Mich.</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub8.gif" alt="" title="Subscriber" /> <img title="Current POW Recipient" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/trophy.gif" alt="" title="Current POW Recipient" /> </a> , May 05, 2009; 06:27 a.m.<br>

Sorry Mike, I don't buy it. I shoot a M8 and M7, and would love to participate in a dedicated Leica or rangefinder forum like this once was.<br>

BUT ...<br>

Trying to be productive ... yes of course.<br>

Disagreement, critiques and criticism not taken personally? Hard to do when they are made personal to such a degree. Sorry Mike, calm and rational NEVER worked here. "Ignore them?" ... sure ... but p.net is a highly visited public forum, and your name smeared in diatribes that never seemed to end isn't my idea of something one would want publicly aired ... nor was that kind of experience fun or informative ... EVER.<br>

I mean, come on, who on Earth wants to go some place where public ridicule is a real possibility and can result in one feeling unhappy? I don't want to have to thicken up my skin when having fun. I get enough of that from life in general, and from doing creative work for a living. Really not interested in some contest of wills and repartee'.<br>

In fact, that's the core of the issue IMHO. Nothing has changed. You guys keep placing responsibility on the victims to control their emotional response ... when it's the perps that you should be prosecuting. Personally, I've never seen a forum so tolerant of ill mannered, even vicious people, and more critical of everyday Joes just sharing their love of something ... sometimes over exuberantly perhaps, but that's the "human nature" of really liking something ... and Leica's have always inspired passion.<br>

In my experience, this forum became a cult of personality, with a few highly vocal "elitist in their own minds" the driving force that was allowed to ruin it for the general group. Tolerance based on what criteria? That they were better photographers than the general group? Who cares when it's emotionally ugly? Brilliance is tolerated when there is a profit motivating it. There's no profit here, except to share a love of something you do to express yourself ... each of us at our own level and in our own way. The world is littered with Brilliant, but nasty, people kicked to the curb when they are no longer profitable to others. I know this first hand from my line of work.<br>

You reap what you sow ... and tumble weeds blowing through this forum seems to be the resulting crop.</p>

<p>I just saw a video about the making of the M7. I think Leica produces 150 per month. Nikon and Canon probably churns out cameras like that factory in San Francisco pumps out fortune cookies. <br>

Speaking of San Francisco, there are people in the bay area who use Leicas and they have regular "meet and greets" or "beer and gear" whatevers ... ya just don't hear about them here...<br>

I thought there might be a web address for a Bay Area LUG, but I couldn't find one.</p>

<p>I did however find this rather sad, feisty<a href="00Bk5q"> little discussion</a> on the Leica Forum here on Pnet from a few years ago.</p>

<p>Time marches on, people & institutions adapt and change. I think this is a healthy thread. I thank Vic again, and Josh too, for initiating, and then stimulating a healthy & frank discussion. If this forum gets interesting & passionate again I may not only buy another membership, I could even keep my Leica.</p>

<p><blockquote>We've got a pile of people in this thread saying "too many jerks and mean posts make the forum awful, delete them" and another pile of people saying "there is too much moderation and that is awful, let people act however they want". </blockquote></p>

<p>Josh, one of the attributes (or drawbacks) of making a decision is that it eliminates all the other possibilities. You are right, you can't do both. So whoever makes the decisions should make one. Then everyone will know where it all stands and can get on with it.</p>

<p>As you know, I DO participate in the p.net wedding forum. There is a real sense that it's constructive and productive with lots of mutual respect despite very diverse approaches. My participation has ebbed and flowed there due to the redundency of questions, but still feel I can contirbute frequently enough to both learn and help others. It's actually a vibrant community. My hat is off to Mary ball ... who's personality is the steading yet quite force of that forum. </p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>So whoever makes the decisions should make one. Then everyone will know where it all stands and can get on with it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>True. But there are parts of this that don't get considered by most people.</p>

<p>So it seems there are a large group of people sitting here saying "The trolls and jerks (both part of the leica community and not) were a large part of ruining of what was once a good place to hang out. We want that crap gone." I am willing to consider making a policy saying essentially:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"The leica forum members have decided that they want a more positive environment to discuss their love of rangefinders and rf photography. ANY trolling or attacking or harassing posts will be deleted. Doesn't matter if you are a 10 year member or a troll visiting for the first time. We want to share our photography, introduce new members to the joy of rangefinders and exchange opinions with likeminded people. All are welcome here, but if you don't feel like you can join in without being a jerk, you might want to go elsewhere. Otherwise you are going to get booted."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>We did a version of this when we created the Beginners forum and it has worked wonderfully. Helpful people post there, jerks got warned then banned and don't cause issues.</p>

<p><strong>HOWEVER</strong> , for an existing forum this only works when a large group of forum members support the policy both privately and publicly. The moderators here are good people, they just want to make a cool place to discuss photography. Any actions they have ever taken were with that goal in mind. But moderators (like users) are humans too, and humans have different opinions and yes, are even prone to mistakes from time to time. What happens when a user who wanted this new policy has a difference of opinion with a moderator? The problem is that most everyone here asking for more moderation of crap posts will support that policy right up to the <strong>very minute</strong> when their own post gets deleted. Or their friend's post gets deleted. Then the moderators are a--holes and "what the hell happened to my post" threads show up all over the place.</p>

<p>When it's someone else, the post deserved to get deleted. When it's your own post, it was just a joke the the moderator didn't get, or the moderator is an idiot, or the admins are nazi's, or they will sue the site if I don't kick that moderator out etc etc etc. By way of example, here are two EXACT quotes (minus swears/slurs) that I have received due to moderator/admin activities on photo.net. You tell me what sane person would be interested in dealing with this sort of thing:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"I hope you end up in prison and get a-- raped by a bunch of n--gers you piece of s--t."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>&</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"You should have your wife die of cancer a--hole. Then you would know what real pain was like and I would laugh"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>People are booted from the forum for being a jerk or trolling under multiple accounts or calling someone a "f@g", and we end up with 50 posts from the people who didn't see the offending problems or know about the multiple accounts but want to play "pile-on". Should we pull the offender's pants down in public by way of explanation? Absolutely not, a previous admin tried that when he was changing banned members user names to say "Joe smith, banned for calling someone a f@g". It was childish and accomplish nothing when he did it and it would be childish and accomplish nothing now.</p>

<p>I guess what I'm saying is that I'm willing to consider a strong-arm change like this. But it's a damn hard thing to do. The history of this forum is a perfect example of that.</p>

<p>I support your proposal, Josh. And I am stunned that people would send those kinds of messages to a moderator of all people, for what in the larger scheme of things are trivial reasons. Fine, if my post gets deleted then I'd better rethink my wording or approach. There's always a different way of saying it, and the moderator I believe is more often than not a neutral observer. Finally, for those people who send those kinds of messages, please give us their names so we can take them out back and beat the crap out of them. :-)</p>

<p>What scared people away from this forum was the back-biting, followed by the ham-handed "moderation" by a person who is no longer with us (I mean photo.net). It earned the forum considerable contempt, which, I believe, accounts of the "feisty guys" introduction. I do not believe the digital revolution and the supposedly slow death of film has much to do with it. The Canon FD and Classic Camera forums are perking along just fine. No, it was the bad blood that did it. But what is important is that it is in the past, like the Bush era. </p>

<p>From what I can see, the discussions are generally clean these days and moderation seems reasonable on the whole. There are people like Marc and a few others who I wish would come back and add their wisdom and images to the forum.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>The Canon FD and Classic Camera forums are perking along just fine.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Alex, your perception on this particular aspect is incorrect. I don't want to berate the issue, but I also don't want to gloss over the facts either. I'm not lying when I say that ALL film based forums are down on photo.net over the time frame we are talking about. I'm not saying that they aren't still active and vibrant, but posts are down significantly from their high point. In comparison, posts in forums like Digital Darkroom are up an equal amount or more over that time frame.</p>

<p>I think your point is valid about the other stuff though.</p>

<p>Keep in mind that the cost of entry for enjoying classic or Canon FD equipment is much lower than for Leicas. You can find working classics for $50 or put together a nice little FD kit for less then $300. A lot more people can afford that than can afford $1500 for a user M and single lens, so there's a much larger pool of users of those cameras.</p>

<p>Thanks for your insights Josh and Mike.</p>

<p>One thing that I want underscore is that this no longer exclusively a Leica forum. Inexpensive rangefinders are out there. This goes from the moderately priced Voigtlanders to the very cheap and often very good Soviet cameras, not to mention the vintage Minoltas, Konicas, Olympuses and others. There is a problem, as someone said, that non-Leica users do not feel welcome here. I do not think this is intentional. But without a little more welcoming the "and Rangefinder" part of this forum's title may well sound like a once a year invitation for the peasants to the Great Hall of the Aristocrats. I think this situation can be changed with a few appropriately friendly threads.</p>

<p>Another thing to keep in mind is that Leica is very much a part of the digital world. In fact the only two film cameras that Leica makes are the M7 and MP. There are the high end digital cameras but there are also fairly inexpensive Leica point and shoots. They count as Leicas and ought to be welcomed. Again, we need to somehow emphasize that the forum is not the Great Hall of the Aristocrats and never has been.</p>

<p>But above all, we need to tell everyone who was scared away from this forum that the bullies are long gone and are not coming back.</p>

<p>I posted above on the theme of my reason for leaving here being the trolls who inhabited the place. There<em> was</em> a time that a day would not go by without me visiting and no more than a couple of days without posting. Then a couple of years ago after several unpleasant episodes of being flamed I just left. I got sick of having to deal with people who seemed to delight in being as hostile and revolting as they could be. And no one was pulling them up! Oh, I now drive by occasionally - that is how I found this thread and decided to contribute because it was not without regret that I decided to pack my bags and go elsewhere to hang out. But I have no intentions of coming bakc regularly. I have long wondered why it is that this site in particular attracted such a relatively large and vocal number of these small minded individuals. Is it envy? Is it because they think that because we use Leicas we are an easy mark? I dont know but I can certainly say I have not experienced anywhere else, the pure unadulterated vitriol that I found here. And mostly is was uncalled for. I remember vividly one day posting a photo of my wife that I thought was reasonably good. I had not asked for criticism but even so the uninvited response I got from a couple of adolescents (well they seemed so to me) was that my photography sucked, my wife was a dog and my camera was rubbish. If these were not the exact words they were the tone. Who would hang around such a joint? Not me...so I left. It does not surprise me that others have followed suit.</p>

Posting under multiple accounts _ that is the problem I have with the rangefinder forums.

 

 

Boredom factor.

 

 

 

 

 

Leica is not a 'range finder' forum _ it is a 'Leica' equipment based forum.

 

 

 

That is where the misunderstandings arose years back, and why other image posting forums were included in the photo.net lineup in an attempt to solve the distress factor :).

<p>I hear you Peter. I had deal with similar crap in more crucial circumstances and won by digging and refusing to be intimidated. I did the same here. At some point I became a lifetime member of photo.net. I can imagine that a lot of people are going through some sort of post traumatic stress from all of this. It is really hard to believe what was tolerated at that time. The good thing is that it is over. The only time that I feel a bit of fear is when I post a question. But that is more like ordinary stage fright. I do not know what motivated all that bad blood. At this point, who cares. </p>

 

<p>So, if this forum's membership and set of regular contributors becomes smaller ... my question is ... so what?</p>

<p>If the quality of the experience improves and the feeling of "welcome" for all types of rangefinder experiences is more the prevailing feel of it, it will attract new members ... and grow.</p>

<p>The fact is, the evangelists for any forum are its current members. Growth often comes from recommendations.</p>

<p>If you've been around for some time, people do contact you directly for help ... often asking where to go to learn more. I've introduced a number of people to rangefinder work, both digital and film. This is absolutely the last forum I would send them to. </p>

<p>People shouldn't feel like they have to be the world's best photographer to come here ... or that they'll be personally ripped to shred's every time they do. Let one Troll succeed and it's uncanny how the pack of Pirañas descend on a forum ... they must network or something ... www.UnitedTrolls.com ... LOL!</p>

<p>Here's a thought. If this forum seems stagnate, you have to remember that the spiteful trollish people NEED the regular contributors to target. Without them, the Trolls have nothing to do. If you tolerate bad behavior, it's the beginning of the end and you'll end up with no one here. Regular folks are gone ... and the trolls move on ... hunting for another place to wreak havoc. </p>

<p>My new M7 comes today. I've missed it dearly. I found a new lab and can't wait to try it. I am sick to death of warming my bum in front of a computer and chimping every shot on the M8. I realized that I needed to return to what made my wedding photography unique for my clients ... it was the way one thinks and reacts with a rangefinder camera, specifically a film M ... not that the camera makes the photographer ... but it DID change when I moved away from using film Ms. So, in the end it is MY evaluation of what works for me ... or not. </p>

<p>It'd be nice to come and share those re-kindled thoughts here without ... "film is dead", "you suck", "wedding photography is inferior", and all the other personal crap and innuendo. </p>

<p> </p><div></div>

<p>Marc, that is an absolutely beautiful shot! Really glad you are using an M7. These days the M7 is with M8 about 85% of the time. Mine is outfitted with a Rapidwinder and Rapidgrip. </p>

<p>Worry not about Trolls. There are none any more. If there were they'd be on my case for sure.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>That's now 258 posts since the W/NW picture of the week on Sunday, including only 90 here and 41 for the 5000 feisty thread, so that's still 127 on other stuff and its only half way through the week. It's like the street forum: a little constructive criticism a couple of weeks ago and it just took off. Well done Ray. </p>

<p>Yeah, cheers, Ray!</p>

<p>common guys, don't give up!;) Although IMO 2003-2006 were the best years in this forum. It was time well spent. Now I have to teach my daughter writing and reading I hardly log on. But this forum is still on my favourite list. I am glad there are folks who keep the w/nw threads going. Seriously, I am no more keen on this M vs that M or this lens vs that lens anymore than what's on tv tonite. Kind of in a photographic rut these past months. But I do missed the people few years back who just disappeared. For example, Huw!</p>

<p>Ray, enjoying your m8? I can't afford one(or rather i think it's over-priced as it is). Although I can remember how shooting with an M enhanced my photographic experience. It's just different. My brain tells me to get the grdII soon(the convenience and all) but I know I will be waiting for that near perfect M10++ soon one day.<br>

hey where's AL Kaplan?!;)</p>

Marc said, "This is absolutely the last forum I would send them to [for help with rangefinder photography]."

 

That sure is a big help for the forum. Bravo.

<p>I can believe Josh when he says these comments come from contributors. You only have to peruse sites such as You Tube to see the amazingly puerile behavior of many contributors when left unmoderated. My feeling is that moderation was not harsh enough to deal with personal attacks (in the name of freedom of expression) a number of years ago and many contributors just gave up and left never to return. I also agree with Alex - if you get pushed around then just ignore it and carry on. Responding to attacks and even noticing and commenting on trollish comments is the oxygen these people need to survive.</p>

<p>Marc says... Here's a thought. If this forum seems stagnate, you have to remember that the spiteful trollish people NEED the regular contributors to target. Without them, the Trolls have nothing to do. If you tolerate bad behavior, it's the beginning of the end and you'll end up with no one here. Regular folks are gone ... and the trolls move on ... hunting for another place to wreak havoc.</p>

<p>Agree Marc .. The key in my opinion is to quietly subdue the trolls - not to answer them - to ignore them completely and let the moderator handle them in the background in private emails.</p>

<p>Sorry Tony, but the few people I did send here were insulted and worked over for being exuberant about their new found love of Leica. It was embarrassing to have recommended it, and I stopped doing it. </p>

<p>But admittedly that was then and this is now.</p>

<p>I'll take Alex's positive lead, and shut up now.</p>

<p>Josh, anything I can do to help don't hesitate to ask. I've done what I could for you and Hanna when you asked. Nothing's changed. </p>

<p> </p>

<p ><a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=25303">Tony Rowlett</a> wrote:</p>

 

<p>"Marc said, "This is absolutely the last forum I would send them to [for help with rangefinder photography]."<br>

That sure is a big help for the forum. Bravo."</p>

 

 

<p>Tony, as long as the forum is (or, "was", I hope) infested with sarcasm ("witty" or otherwise), trolls, personal attacks and hostility I won't send anyone here for advice. I sincerely hope those days are behind the forum but I'd have to see it to believe it before suggesting a friend ask a question here.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Josh, anything I can do to help don't hesitate to ask. I've done what I could for you and Hanna when you asked. Nothing's changed.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes you have, and I thank you for everything you've done.</p>

<p>I guess the one thing that I would ask everyone to do right now is to post. Just make posts. Post photos, post NW threads, post random musings about Leica or RF photography, etc. That will help things get moving again and it will flush out any remaining trolls so that they can be dealt with.</p>