What is the point....?

<p>Hi,</p>

<p>I'm more a lurker here in Street and Documantary, but to me, the best way to think of these two types of photography is as such:<br /> -Street photography, capturing an instant of the ordinary in hopes of finding and studying something extraordinary.<br /> -Documentary photography, capturing the obviously extraordinary and studying how if affects the ordinary.</p>

<p>To me that is what it boils down to. To me, "street" shooting seems to be a real challenge, to find that hidden, yet extraordinary message in an otherwise rather mundane scene. The photo above of the two armed doormen, it didn't mean too much to me until I saw the finger on the trigger. That took studying, exploration, on my part, and maybe that is what makes a street shot an <em>effective</em> street shot, when it finally reveals its hidden message. I feel few "street" shots are very effective shots- as the O.P. asked, what is the message? What is the purpose? "Documentary" shooting seems quite obvious, seeing how an out of the ordinary event is making people react in a way they never plan on reacting in, whether the cause for the person's reaction is a good cause or a bad cause. Street captures everyday feelings, emotions, and actions. Documentary captures rare feelings, emotions, and actions.</p>

<p>I'd posted this link here several weeks ago, for the Reuter's Photos of the Year. All kinds of stuff here, but photos that are both street and documentary, mainly the latter. Lots of emotion.<br /> http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/rpSlideshows?articleId=USRTX8VHS#a=1</p>

<p>So, am I on base with my thoughts? Or am I out in the left field bleachers?</p>

<p>Steve, I think you are on cue. I can't shoot street very well, well actually I'm not a photographer but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.</p>

<p>How can you show somebody with no shoes and an AK-47 that tells a story easily? Or a guy that is making a ka-bob and holds his knife to his throat and smiles at you?</p>

<p>David your post is so irritating I can't believe your audacity. Grow up and keep your useless opinions to yourself or say it to the person who's photo you are critiquing. But to start a thread about it? What kind of answer are you looking for anyway?<br>

To everyone else trying to encourage with recommendations of street photographers, save your breath, David has nor the maturity or understanding to take it seriously. This post is a cry for attention nothing more.</p>

<p>You are not missing the point. Good street photography is rare and hard to come by. Too many photographers seem to think a snap shot of someone doing not much of anything is somehow worth viewing. For me it's all about capturing that special moment, glance, action, expression etc. I am not much of a street photographer but I sure appreciate those who are.</p>

<p>I totally agree w/ you David. 99% of it's pure crap. It's a public forum. I just don't look at the photo postings, unless they relate to a camera I'm interested in, and only then I'm interested in the lens qualities. Before digital people were spared this sort of banality because these snaps were kept in photo albums. Whenever the host would pull them out for people to look at, the guests would suddenly remember important appointments and flee.</p>

<p>Like Mike Dixon said, we are learning here, some of us. As to meaning, art, and some of this is art, doesn't have a meaning per se. I think this quote sums up some of the faces captured on the street: "The function of the image, as Gogol said, is to express life itself, not ideas or arguments about life. It does not signify life or symbolise it, but embodies it, expressing its uniqueness." A Tarkovsky.</p>

<p ><strong>Well, I told myself I would not get involved, but then I am one of the culprits. </strong></p>

<p > </p>

<p >David Bell <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub4.gif" alt="" title="Subscriber" /> <img title="Frequent poster" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/1roll.gif" alt="" title="Frequent poster" /> </a> , Apr 14, 2009; 03:18 p.m.</p>

 

<p>I am very frustrated. I continually fail to "see" the point, the message, what the photographer is trying to convey, in so many of the street photography shots posted on this forum and elsewhere.<strong>''Then I would suggest you simply not look at them. Nobody has a gun to your head...So stop frustrating yourself...''</strong></p>

<p>I wish I would get it. I wish someone would switch on the light inside my head.<strong> ''Perhaps you don't get it because it is not your cup of tea?'' </strong></p>

<p>Honestly, I am not trying to be controversial or whatever. I live in one of the world's truly great cities, and this is not said lightly, a city which has existed for over 2000 years - London.It teems with street photography opportunities which I just canot take advantage of.<strong>''Again, maybe this is not for you''</strong></p>

<p>It feels like I am trapped inside a room and can't find the key to get out. The key would be the ability to spot and take shots that have some more meaning to them rather than what I see as very often meaningless shots such as a random crowd with nothing going on, a fat man walking past, a lady sitting inside a coffee shop with a neutral expression, a person riding a bicycle down the road.<strong>''While these may not be interesting to you, they maybe to other folks...Certainly they are to me...In my truly great city, LOS ANGELES, you would be surprised at how different people are and how fascinating many are...''</strong></p>

<p>There are numerous examples of this in a post a few places down from this one, W/NW -Street Photography<strong>.''I would agree and I am sure I am a culprit...The problem I see with your critique, Is I have yet to see any of your street work. I looked through your gallery and I saw some well processed images that where well composed, but nothing street that I can see...So right now your words don't carry allot of weight.''</strong></p>

<p>I dare not say anything there as I will be accused of being mean.<strong>''If you go in guns blazing and not being a contributor, then yes...I can see you getting attacked..If you go in there with some of your work it is a different story...Offer CC but be prepared to get it back...''</strong></p>

<p>There are some very good shots in there but the majority I just don't get...<strong>''I agree''</strong></p>

<p>Let's not assume they are all good,<strong>''ok''</strong></p>

<p>I am sure there are some very average and below average shots thrown in.<strong> ''I agree and am one of the guilty ones...But I enjoy all the images, even the ones that are average or below...at least people have the courage to post them up...'' To get out there and actually shoot......... </strong></p>

<p>If its a case of documenting our current style of living then fair enough, but its really not very gripping at all! <strong>''I heard a term yesterday on another forum..a term I am adopting to my style...Rather than calling it street shooting, I will refer to it as social shooting...''</strong></p>

<p>Maybe I am not cut out for street photography and should stick to what I do best.<strong>''Bingo, I would have to agree with this wise statement...''</strong></p>

<p><strong>As for me, I shoot what I see and what I think is interesting. I shoot primarily for myself..To make myself happy...Since I really enjoy walking, the camera in my hands just makes it all the sweeter....I have no problems with confidence, as I will shoot what I want. Heck I shoot in some of the worst areas of L.A. and enjoy it. 98% of my pictures are only seen by me..So I may be a lousy photographer, but I have fun doing it...<br /> </strong></p>

<p> </p>

 

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<p>Grow up and keep your useless opinions to yourself</p>

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<p>Speaking as the moderator, this post has generated a lot of useful discussion, including from the other moderator on this forum. If you want to be the moderator and decide who gets to post, start your own forum please.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><i>I am very frustrated. I continually fail to "see" the point, the message, what the photographer is trying to convey, in so many of the street photography shots posted on this forum and elsewhere.<strong>''Then I would suggest you simply not look at them. Nobody has a gun to your head...So stop frustrating yourself...''</strong></i></p>

</blockquote>

<p>I welcome his post; it's a great discussion for a change.</strong></p>

<blockquote>

<p><i>I dare not say anything there as I will be accused of being mean.<strong>''If you go in guns blazing and not being a contributor, then yes...I can see you getting attacked..If you go in there with some of your work it is a different story...Offer CC but be prepared to get it back...''</strong></i></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Hardly guns blazing. Seem's well-reasoned and thoughtful to me. OTOH, you seem very angry and defensive about David raising valid points.</b><br /> <strong><strong></strong></strong><br /> <strong><strong>

<blockquote>

<p><i>Rather than calling it street shooting, I will refer to it as social shooting...''</strong><br /> <br /><br /></i> </strong></b></blockquote></b></blockquote></b></blockquote>But thankfully, that's not what this forum is about.</strong></p>

 

</strong></strong><br /> <strong><strong><br /></strong></strong></p>

<p> </p>

<p>Yikes, I wish the editing window was more predictable. There are still bugs with it. Tried to fix the above formatting, but it just doesn't take...</p>

<p>Brad, and had ''you'' been the one to start the thread, it would carry some weight..You atleast are in the trenches..As far as being angry. Nope..There are far more pressing things to be angry about..</p>

<p>You don't have to be in the trenches to carry weight. A well-reasoned question/discussion/proposition seeking understanding, and hopefully generating thoughtful responses is OK with me.</p>

 

<p>Then we will need to agree to disagree. I simply do not have any respect for someone who comes in to critique street shooters when he himself has nothing.. </p>

<p>Kate, you are irritatingly pretentious. Are you a psych major?</p>

<p>Michael F., if it's taken with a Leica, it is art. hahahaha, try to make that with a cola nut, hahaha.</p>

<p>Half of the puds here think he has a point, I do and I'm also a pud. The other half think Dave is troll that needs attention that lives under a bridge, eats children and doesn't understand your art.</p>

<p>My personal opinion is the 2nd half destroyed a decent thread. Maybe I'll just go take a picture of my dogs genitals and flame you for not understanding it.</p>

<p>Fudge packers.</p>

<p>>>> Maybe I'll just go take a picture of my dogs genitals and flame you for not understanding it.</p>

<p>Hey, you've got my respect. Go for it. If it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you shoot it on a sidewalk, so it will qualify as "street."</p>

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<p>I simply do not have any respect for someone who comes in to critique street shooters when he himself has nothing..</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Why would someone want street shooters to be the primary critiquers of street shooters? This strikes me as the ultimate kool aid event, no reality applied. </p>

<p>My mentor for a number of years was a landscape photographer, NG book etc etc. It didn't matter that we didn't shoot anything similar to each other, he could look and tell me what worked and didn't. He was a human being. That's what it takes to critique photos.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I simply do not have any respect for someone who comes in to critique street shooters when he himself has nothing.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Of the people who view my photography, only a very small percentage actually do street photography themselves. I won't be asking for their advice on how to do street photography, but I think their views on whether my work is effective are quite valid. I've never made a movie, but I can explain why a movie is good or not.</p>

<p>[i see that Jeff posted a similar response while I was writing this one.]</p>

<p>I see that my statement hit a sore spot. Well, I will have to ponder my words a little. If I am wrong, I am wrong. For now I will stick with what I said.</p>

<p>It's not a sore spot, it's the nature of photography. If the only people you want to comment on your photos are ones you're comfortable with, it's not going to be useful commenting.</p>

<p>David Bell did not limit his inquiry to this forum. Note the word"elsewhere"in his original post. My suggestion was to educate the man so as to turn on the light(no pun intended). I don't think David Bell has studied great street photography. Doing so might be helpful to him and others who don't "get it". I don't see any reason to go Negative on Bell. I really try not to critque images on this forum because I don't post and then some wiseacre will say "show me your pictures". I really think David is looking in the wrong place to really find the best street photography. Hence my suggestions. One of the problems with street photography is that it is just so difficult to get a great street shot. As Gianni Berengo Gardin said , a great street photographer is doing well if he gets 2 great street shots a year. Some people are doing well if they get one great street shot in a lifetime. Street photography might be the toughest photography to do. Hence it is mostly an exercise in failure. The vast majority of any street photographer's photos are simply bad. There was a time in this forum when the standard of street photography was really good: around 2003-2004 when Ed Leveckis, Grant Lamos, Takakki, Tom Sullivan, and a few others posted almost every night images that anyone would get unless they were blind. Those guys, whether you recognize it or not, were world class street photographers. Those days are gone. There is only one person consistently and frequently posting very good street photos on this site and that is Orville Robertson. His web site is well worth a look. David Bell has a point. The quality of street photographs on this forum is not great. And we shouldn't expect it to be great unless we all get out there and shoot street eveyday and get our 2 great photos every year.</p>

<p>There are some other points as well. First of all the forum is not a gallery. People post photo's here that they wouldn't hang on their own wall let alone in a gallery. After all this is supposed to be a learning site and let's not forget some photo's are just put up for fun.</p>

<p>Also it is fair to say that backgrounds, training, experience and talents differ so as a consequence of that the quality of photo's uploaded will differ, which I think it does. As I said before it's a perfectly reasonable and valid question/observation. The fact that he doesn't seem to be a streetshooter doesn't alter that.</p>

<p> </p>

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<p >Jeff Spirer <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Moderator" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/mod.gif" alt="" title="Moderator" /> <img title="Subscriber" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub10plus.gif" alt="" title="Subscriber" /> <img title="Frequent poster" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/3rolls.gif" alt="" title="Frequent poster" /> </a> , Apr 15, 2009; 01:32 a.m.<br>

It's not a sore spot, it's the nature of photography. If the only people you want to comment on your photos are ones you're comfortable with, it's not going to be useful commenting.</p>

<p>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p>

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<p>I do not mind CC what so ever. Infact I encourage it. If you look at my posting history here and else where, I offer it and receive it as well. <br>

The issue I have is this.<br>

I read the opening post and think. Ok. I agree with most of it. So I start out to look at his work. What do I find? Nothing to do with street. So I read the OP again and think. What is this guy talking about? He comes in to criticize and yet has nothing to show for it as far as street goes. He goes on to say that he has a great city with great opps and yet nothing...He says maybe it is not for him and I agree...</p>

<p>Javier--- From your last 2 posts in this thread I can assume that since I have nothing posted on the web that you have no respect for anything I have to say. Your position as stated above. You assume that I am not a competent street photographer simply from a lack of posting. Further you make this assumption about everyonr who doesn't post. If you read what I have written above, does it not make since to you? And what does posting have to do with it? I'm not going to bother giving you my credentials , I'll get criticized for it and it defeats the point made by Mike Dixon and Jeff above. Do you not realize that the most revered photography critics and curators are not known for their personal photography? When was the last time you saw a picture by A D Coleman? Do art critics have to be excellent painters? Does art criticsm and making art involve different skills? Have you really thought your position through? I think not!</p>

<p>Anyone who has the enthusiasm and energy to put up pics should be welcomed here as far as I'm concerned. That's what the forum is. Take it or leave it. It's not the freaking Museum of Modern Art. I've seen people who started out with not much of a clue improve and post some pretty decent work. If you think the pics aren't good enough then maybe you ought to think about making the little bit of effort it would require to post some of your own. </p>

<p>Why should I? I just completed a solo show of street photography at the Henry Gregg Gallery in NYC entitled "ON The Street" where i had 45 street photographs hanging. Across the hall from me was an exhibit by Eddie Adams. I posted the exhibit on this forum. If you wanted to see my work, you should have gone to the show. The idea that to have any credibilty requires posting of photographs is naive. This forum is more than posting photographs, as this thread proves. I anticipated your criticism in my prior post, and guess what, you did exactly what I anticipated. There is nothing wrong with raising the level of dialogue in this forum, nor raising the level of photography posted. What could be wrong with that?</p>