5D Dichroic Mirror Etching: Send to Canon Repair?

<p>Do most people send in the camera with a lens attached, or just the body? I imagine that Canon provides instuctrions for this sort of thing...</p>

<p>They prefer just the body and its cap - no strap, no batteries, no lens - the less you send, the less they are liable for keeping track of.</p>

<p>Call Canon, if you are in the US 1-800-OKCANON, and set up your repair. Then send it in as instructed. It's all in the manual, by the way...</p>

<p>Danny: I find it unlikely that the filter is etched. Glass is generally fairly resistant to etching (I learned it at UCSB!). I find it more likely that it is the residue of a cleaner that is not soluble in Eclipse 2. First off, you should ask the previous owner what he used to clean the sensor and use the same cleaner. If you have no success there I would try to remove this with Smear Away from Visible Dust--which, in fact can leave a residue not unlike what you have. But the Smear Away residue goes away with Sensor Clean, also from Visible Dust (Smear Away may not get this residue if the residue is old, thus use Smear Away first). Get the swabs that are recommended for these cleaners, to avoid making things worse.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Danny: I find it unlikely that the filter is etched. Glass is generally fairly resistant to etching (I learned it at UCSB!). I find it more likely that it is the residue of a cleaner that is not soluble in Eclipse 2.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Same here. Etching requires some really strong chemicals like hydrofluoric acid. Who has access to chemicals like that knows that they would damage the filter (and the camera) and would not use them. Besides, the maps really do not look like etching to me. I can be obviously wrong, but I am confident that these are some cleaning residues and that professional Canon service might be able to clean them.</p>

<p>I know you got a lot of answers on this but there were some coatings in earlier 5ds that could be sensitive to certain liquid cleaners. I had heard if your sensor has a yellowish/orange hue as you look at it that these were the sensor filter coatings vulnerable. I've only read of this but can't verify from experience. I would at least have a qualified person inspect it and get a quote for repair. If it is the filter it could be fairly expensive. I do wish you well on this. Let us know what you discover, it could be helpful to us 5D owners.</p>

<p>Hi Everyone - thanks for the great responses. This is a newer 5D (serial # begins in 3), so I don't think I have the "thin coating" problem experienced by first generation 5D owners. Peter E and Mirek Elsner raise a very good point - that there may be residue from cleaning fluid that is not soluble in E2. I had assumed the Eclipse/E2 would disolve just about anything, but in hindsight that may not be the case. Also, I agree that etching a film does seem difficult. It does, however, remain possible that some residue lies under the front filter, thereby explaining why the Sensor Swabs were unable to touch it. I have decided to send to camera to Canon, and will update this page as more information becomes available.<br>

Thanks again to all who contributed!<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=656028"><br /> </a></p>

<p>I would guess that some liquid made it between the sensor and the filter. Cleaning it would require to remove the anti aliasing filter first which you cannot do at home.</p>

<p><em>I find it unlikely that the filter is etched. Glass is generally fairly resistant to etching (I learned it at UCSB!).</em></p>

<p>The dichroic coating on the filter is not glass, it is usually organic thin film (in some cameras this layer also absorbs IR) which can be easily removed/etched/damaged, hence manufacturers do not recommend any cleaning procedure that involves physical contact with the filter, otherwise Canon, Nikon etc. would be selling their own magic cleaning solutions etc. <br />Anyone who has doubt about this can try the following (knowing that it will destroy your camera!) try some high purity methanol and swab your sensor, then take a photo to see what has happened ;)</p>

<p>Methanol is used in many of the sensor cleaning products. What are you talking about, Arash?</p>

<p>> Anyone who has doubt about this can try the following (knowing that it will destroy your camera!) try some high purity methanol and swab your sensor, then take a photo to see what has happened ;)</p>

I have to say... I've swabbed my 5D sensor with high purity methanol several times, over three years, without any problems.

<p>

 

</p>

<p>Mark,<br />You are wrong, methanol is only 1-2% of the E2 solution, the rest is IPA. 100% Pure methanol will dissolve the coating.<br /><a href="http://www.photosol.com/documents/MSDS%20-%20E2.pdf">http://www.photosol.com/documents/MSDS%20-%20E2.pdf</a><br />Alec, where did you get 100% pure methanol? I have used JT Baker semiconductor grade methanol on a Nikon D80 and the sensor coating was fully dissolved. If you really want to make sure you destroy the coating you can use Acetone ;)</p>

<p>Arash, I'm not wrong, thank you. Eclipse and e-Wipe are 100% methanol based cleaners. I've quoted a portion of the MSDS sheet to make it convenient for you...</p>

<p><a href="http://www.photosol.com/documents/msds_ewipe_eclipse.pdf">http://www.photosol.com/documents/msds_ewipe_eclipse.pdf</a></p>

<p>From the MSDS sheet:</p>

<p><strong>

<p align="left">"Product Use :</p>

</strong>

<p align="left">Eclipse is intended for cleaning optical lenses such as those used in photography, binoculars, telescopes, etc. It</p>

<p align="left">is applied by dropping a few drops onto a clean PEC*PAD®; and wiping across the surface of the glass.</p>

<p align="left">e-Wipe is intended for cleaning critical optic CCD's, mirrors and lenses such as those used in digital camera and</p>

<p align="left">photographic equipment, binoculars, telescopes, etc. It is applied by opening the sealed packet and gently</p>

<p align="left">wiping in a single direction across the surface.</p>

<strong>

<p align="left">Section II Composition and Ingredient Information</p>

</strong>

<p>Chemical Identity : 100% Methanol - CAS # 67-56-1"</p>

<p>Now, if you have some data to back up your claims that 100% methanol will dissolve the sensor coatings, I'd sure like to be pointed in the right direction.</p>

</p>

<p>

<p>Mark,<br />Your are confusing two different products, The MSDS data sheet you attached is <strong>NOT</strong> for the eclipse E2 solution but for a different product which is an optical lens cleaner. These are two different products one for cleaning surface of glass optics and CCD optics (such as CCD cameras in optical scopes not DSLR sensors)<br />This Eclipse E2, i.e. this product <br /><a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?ci=0&shs=eclipse+e2&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=jsp/RootPage.jsp&A=search&Q=*&bhs=t&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=submit">http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?ci=0&shs=eclipse+e2&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=jsp/RootPage.jsp&A=search&Q=*&bhs=t&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=submit</a><br />is meant for cleaning DSLR sensors with the following data sheet which you obviously did not read <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.photosol.com/documents/MSDS%20-%20E2.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.photosol.com/documents/MSDS%20-%20E2.pdf </a>and it is not made of 100% Methanol, any ways I am not going to debate this, you can try pure ethanol on your sensor and see what happens.</p>

</p>

<p>Sorry, I meant Methanol above. Here is spec from Eclipse E2 MSDS section, this is primary Ethanol solution which does not dissolve ITO or organic coatings.<br />here is a link to manifacturer website<br /><a href="http://www.photosol.com/eclipse_e2product.htm">http://www.photosol.com/eclipse_e2product.htm</a></p>

<p><strong>9. Physical and Chemical Properties</strong>

<p><strong>

<p align="left">Appearance:</p>

</strong>

<p align="left">Clear, colorless liquid.</p>

<strong>

<p align="left">Odor:</p>

</strong>

<p align="left">Mild pleasant whiskey-like odor.</p>

<strong>

<p align="left">Solubility:</p>

</strong>

<p align="left">Miscible in water.</p>

<strong>

<p align="left">Density:</p>

</strong>

<p align="left">0.79 @ 20C/4C</p>

<strong>

<p align="left">pH:</p>

</strong>

<p align="left">No information found.</p>

<strong>

<p align="left">% Volatiles by volume @ 21C (70F):</p>

</strong>

<p align="left">100</p>

<strong>

<p align="left">Boiling Point:</p>

</strong>

<p align="left">78C (172F) (ethanol)</p>

<strong>

<p align="left">Melting Point:</p>

</strong>

<p align="left">-114C (-173F) (ethanol)</p>

<strong>

<p align="left">Vapor Density (Air=1):</p>

</strong>

<p align="left">1.6 (ethanol)</p>

<strong>

<p align="left">Vapor Pressure (mm Hg):</p>

</strong>

<p align="left">40 @ 19C (66F) (ethanol)</p>

<strong>

<p align="left">Evaporation Rate (BuAc=1):</p>

</strong>

<p>ca. 1.4 (CCl4=1) (ethanol)</p>

</p>

</p><div></div>

<p>Au contraire, Arash...I did read the MSDS you referenced. I did not see where it states the composition is, as quoted directly from your post, "methanol is only 1-2% of the E2 solution, the rest is IPA". </p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>I am not going to debate this, you can try pure ethanol on your sensor and see what happens.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>First, we were talking about methanol, not ethanol, and second, I could really give a rat's behind what you consider debatable. All I asked was that if you have information that shows that methanol will dissolve sensor coatings, then let's see it.</p>

 

<p>Mark,<br />Many DSLR sensors are coated by ITO (Indium Tin Oxide) as a dichroic and conductive film, if you are in this business you will immediately recognize that Methanol will dissolve ITO (and other organics such as photo resist and other refractive polymers), if not here is a link <a href="http://www.earthboundlight.com/phototips/indium-tin-oxide-sensor-cleaning.html">http://www.earthboundlight.com/phototips/indium-tin-oxide-sensor-cleaning.html</a><br />you can also google search ITO to learn more about its properties.<br />Using Methanol solution for ITO coated sensors will dissolve the coating and thus destroy the camera, I just wanted to point this out because I have already killed a Nikon D80 by using Methanol as I did not know there was an ITO coating at that time. <br />Regards,</p>

<p>In fact the damage caused to OPs sensor coating might have been caused by the previous user using a Methanol solution as it has partially dissolved the coating-so be careful!</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Arash, this is my last post about this. It's obvious you are making claims that you can't support. Your link only directs to an article written by a photographer who gives no causal fact that ITO is soluble in methanol. It offers no support for your claims and gives absolutely no proof of what you state. So beyond your anecdotal experience, I can't find anything that definitively states that ITO is soluble in methanol. Thanks for your very feeble attempt to enlighten those of us too dense to understand your brilliance. I'm done.</p>

<p>Mark,<br />I am really sorry I was not able to convince you! Not a problem, I understand as this was probably the first time you heard the word ITO. If you have a chemistry major in your family that you can trust maybe they can tell you more about ITO and effects of Methanol on it. Also try to familiarize yourself with Google Scholar search, it makes life so much easier :)<br />I am sure you know more than than company who makes and recommends this solution, I suggest you email them and tell them that they are wrong in their product composition and recommendations and that they should use Methanol instead, they might pay you something in return ;) good luck!</p>

<p>Mark and Arash, you are referring to two distinct products, I think, which are Eclipse and Eclipse E2. One (the original Eclipse) is apparently pure methanol, while the other is a mix of methanol, ethanol and isopropylalcohol. To my knowledge, E2 was developed because Sony wanted something milder for their ITO coated sensors (even though they did not find any damage caused by the original formula)</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Anyone who has doubt about this can try the following (knowing that it will destroy your camera!) try some high purity methanol and swab your sensor, then take a photo to see what has happened ;)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I worked in chemical research for about 5 years, using various solvents on a daily basis and find it hard to believe that the sensor coating would be so easily soluble in methanol so that you can wipe it out - if at the same time it is insoluble in all of the following: water, acetone and isopropylalcohol mixed with methanol.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>I am sure you know more than than company who makes and recommends this solution, I suggest you email them and tell them that they are wrong in their product composition and recommendations and that they should use Methanol instead, they might pay you something in return ;) good luck!</p>

</blockquote>

<p>An a<a href="http://www.photosol.com/e25d.htm">rticle on the manufacturers site</a> indicates that methanol does not cause any problems with ITO coatings and in fact the E2 caused some issues with earlier 5D sensors, while the Eclipse (methanol only) did not cause any. They say E2 is gentler, that is all. Please correct me if I'm wrong.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Many DSLR sensors are coated by ITO (Indium Tin Oxide) as a dichroic and conductive film, if you are in this business you will immediately recognize that Methanol will dissolve ITO (and other organics such as photo resist and other refractive polymers)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Indium tin oxide is not an organic compound.</p>

<p>Mirek, thanks for providing the link and some sensible information. </p>

<p>Mark Elsner,<br>

I pointed out that Eclipse E2 was different from original Eclipse in that it is a Ethanol solution instead of Methanol, please read the posts.<br>

Secondly I do research in semiconductor fabrication facility on a daily basis, we use Acetone and Methanol to lift off (i.e. dissolve) photoresist on Si wafers, Acetone will surely cause damage not only to moat sensor caoting but also to the interior of the camera as it dissolves any plastic.rubber part. Both Acetone and methanol are perfect organic solvents for most refractive polymers.<br>

By the whcih chemical research facility do you work at? What are your experties? <br>

I know ITO is not organic, Organic coatings that are used in camera sensors include infra-red coatings and are made of polymers of 3612 family.<br>

This is really beyon the scope of this forum but if you have the background and access to technical journals you should read this to learn more about effects of methanol adsorption on ITO. <br>

 

 

<p >Study of methanol adsorption on mica, graphite and ITO glass by using tapping mode atomic force microscopy</p>

 

<strong>

<p >Li Wang, Yonghai Song, Aiguo Wu, Zhuang Li, Bailin Zhang<a name="bfnfn1"></a><a onclick="toggleTabs('fullTab')" href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6THY-461XMMW-1&_user=145269&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000012078&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=145269&md5=daac2c71b52ff6e0733d35d8f46f9960#fn1">¹</a> and Erkang Wang<a name="m4.bcor*"></a><a onclick="toggleTabs('fullTab')" href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6THY-461XMMW-1&_user=145269&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000012078&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=145269&md5=daac2c71b52ff6e0733d35d8f46f9960#m4.cor*">^{<img title="Corresponding Author Contact Information" src="http://www.sciencedirect.com/scidirimg/entities/REcor.gif" border="0" alt="Corresponding Author Contact Information" />}</a>^,<a href="mailto:ekwang@ns.ciac.jl.cn">^{<img title="E-mail The Corresponding Author" src="http://www.sciencedirect.com/scidirimg/entities/REemail.gif" border="0" alt="E-mail The Corresponding Author" />}</a></p>

</strong>

 

<p >Journal of applied Surface Science</p>

 

Received 13 March 2002;

accepted 22 April 2002.

Available online 12 June 2002.

<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

</p>

<p>Sorry Mirek, I got your name wrong.</p>

<p>Hi Arash,</p>

<p>I worked in polymer chemistry. What is important though is that the original Eclipse is pure methanol and the manufacturer on their site mentions that it won't damage the ITO coating and even Alex - a poster in this thread - used methanol to clean his sensor with no damage. So there seems to be evidence that methanol works safely on EOS5D. If the manufacturer does not have any reports of damaged 5D sensors from methanol, I think it is extremely unlikely that Danny's sensor was damaged that way.<br>

I would be curious to know what the problem was and hope that Danny will report back after his camera returns from Canon.</p>