Its not a matter of just price but performance.

<p>this has got to be just about the most boring photography discussion ever, anywhere....<br>

the only point I'd like to add to it has to do with Lica's ads.....they usually just show you a great piece of machinary, and lots of words to discribe what it cab do........ but no photographs shot with that machinary....</p>

<div></div>

<p>Brian Seay said, "Wow. I thought that the Canon EOS forum was fiesty!"<br>

The Canon forum, and all other forums on photo.net, don't know feisty. This forum invented fiesty. It is purely an on-line Leica phenomena, much like the waving fists and yelled cuss words that are likely this evening when I am doing my Christmas shopping.</p>

<p>Canon and Nikon don't do boutique editions Leica does, if any camera would have a Gucchi edition or a Cartier edition it would be Leica. Its more than a camera at least in the old days when they lasted 50 years, took as good a picture as the latest film camera model. There have alway been those who would never look at the Hexar RF or the Zeiss Ikon rangefinder because not being Leica they had no CASCHE no lineage and no resale value. Then there is the collectability of all the special order, limited editions. Even old empty boxes are collectable. This I am sure why an M7 holds its price well while the Nikon F5 does not. Both cameras are beautifully made.<br>

But the problem is that those days of Leica film cameras being forever are only for film users, and I love my M4P, I have 5 M lenses the MR4 and the motor drive, a Metz flash and a couple of optical VF's for my wide angles. None are collectible, just plain jane.<br>

Today digital environment has changed even Leicas universe. Unless the whole image processor and associated sensor module can be swapped out then the Leica M digital gets obsolite just like every other camera. All the good camera are now made with Magnesium metal bodies and long lasting shutters. Even the concept of RF and SLR is going to change because at 1.4MP the electronic HD lcd VF like the one in the Panasonic G1 is a new way to have no mirror and direct view TTL. This should be the next camera catagory. But products are disposible in the digital age a 5 year old camera design is no better than a $700 camera these days.</p>

<p>Leica has ALWAYS been an expensive camera when they are bought new. Its like that today;yesterday; a decade ago; in the 1970's; in the 1930's. A Kodak Retina in the 1930's cost less than Leica;</p>

<p>Harvey; Santa can make you the 500 buck M8 or 300 buck RD-1 if you just can get 100,000 Good little boys and girls to buy them; and say 5 to 10 million raised for the tooling costs. :)<br /> <br /> The M8 and RD-1 are made in 1/1000 the sales volume of a Walmart/Best Buy dslr; thus the tooling costs per unit at ONE THOUSAND TIMES MORE PER UNIT. An change that costs to design; tool and test might cost 50 bucks per M8 and 5 cents for the walmart dslr. I don not know why this is so hard to fathom; ie costs per unit are higher with zilch volumes. <br /> <br /> An analogy is that it costs a photographer MORE to shoot 1 students photo's at 1000 schools; than 1000 students at 1 school. I mentioned this concept in the several other threads where you ask why doesnt a M8 or RD-1 cost less; and you compared it ALWAYS to a super high volume dslr.<br /> <br /> Camera makers are probably not going to fart around and risk retrofitting a used body with a new upgraded sensor; thats loony from a warranty issue;and a massive about of labor.<br /> If you are fixated on Leica always having the latest sensor of the month; you will wait for all time.<br /> Its really not a new concept that cameras get new features each year; it was like that before anybody on Photo.net was born.</p>

<p>Harvey ; One also novel concept is why it costs more tranasction fee per share to buy 10 shares of GE stock versus 10,000 shares; or buy 10 potatoes versus 10,000 potatoes. Just because YOU want a vendor to sell a low volume product at a loss is not going to happen; unless they are irrational and ignorant of production costs. Companies actually do consider production costs.</p>

<p>Kelly, Please don't pre-empt any future threads. Without Harvey, p.net will have very low traffic.</p>

<p>Love these my cam is better than yours threads.</p>

<p>Jeez,we all know the M8 is the ultimate photo machine. Not sure why, but is must be cause it cost loads of bucks and you can say sucks boo to the financially challenged folks. Cool or what! I say old chap i use a Leica M8 what do you use..a Canon? Oh dear but it does rather suit you. Ha,ha.<br>

Now my mate Vivek,well,he got himself a Panasonic thingy..and, then got himself an adaptor and filed it down, so now it's nearly a proper M8. Cause it's files are very small he had to interlace them (sort of like they do with the thrilly bits on nickers). Now it does nearly just as good but just looks ugly.</p>

<p>Merry xmas folks and a happy new year.<br>

;)</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p> I say old chap i use a Leica M8 what do you use..a Canon? Oh dear but it does rather suit you. Ha,ha.</p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote>

<p>That's pretty funny.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>If it's OK with everybody, I've just patented the use of this thread, read aloud by a professional Basil Rathbone impersonator, as a new type of surgical anesthesia.<br /><br />Why, I've fallen asleep three times just typing this sentence! Am... amazzzz.. oop! <em>Amazing!</em></p>

<p>Kelly, Kelly, Kelly, As an EE I know about economies of scale, payback on R&D and amortizing fabrication and tooling for manufacturing. Of course Nikon partners for electronic sensors and cpu's and does well. Canon could supply their last generation 1dMIII 1.3x crop 10mp chip its not going to compete with their new cameras but it finished in the top 10 on the DXOmark.<br>

*</p>

<p>http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/DxOMark-Sensor/Camera-rankings<br>

*</p>

<p>This would be a good deal for Leica and Canon could make more money on already depreciated R&D and fabrication. Leica could have a much better camera if they partnered up. Just one way.</p>

<p>"Canon and Nikon don't do boutique editions Leica does"</p>

<p>Really, Harvey?<br>

http://www.cameraquest.com/NRFS3%202000.htm</p>

<p>It is really amazing how much those S3 kits cost.</p>

<p>I for one am glad Harvey re-posted this link. It's what I had always suspected; Canon is blowing doors on Nikon! I for one, have been a Nikon user for forty years and it seems now they have lost their integral optical and technological edge to Canon. If I had to do it all over again I'd definitely go Canon. As for Leica, only an older M2 or M3 when I want to fool with film again. Even though I could purchase a sweet system from Leica for the price of one or two high-end bodies from Canon or Nikon. Thanks Harvey for reposting the link!</p>

<p>Thanks Phillip, Canon clearly has the most top cameras in the first tier of cameras, but Nikon does have the top 2 and the D90 is a bargain. I too have lots of Nikon gear and hope for an 18MP Nikon the size of the F6 with a 100% viewfinder the D700 only has a 95% vf and I would love to have a 5:4 mode for portraits so I can frame exactly the 8x10" section of the frame in the camera. If I don't get what I want from Nikon in two years I will get a Canon and a 24-105mm and a 300mm tele that should be enough for most of my shooting and I will just keep my favorite film Nikons. They ain't worth selling but and F3hp and the F100 are sure dandy cameras.</p>

<p>Very good news, Harvey. Please tell us (well, you won't show any photos but could articulate your feelings)<br>

all about how your zooms and the cameras function after you get them. Would this be Canon EOS or Pentax or Nikon?</p>

<p>While you are at it check out the Nikon RF prices! :-)</p>

 

<p>"I for one am glad Harvey re-posted this link"<br>

<br /><br>

Are people really so insecure about their equipment choices that they need to resort to measurebating?</p>

<p>Its better than looking at the photographic world thru Rose Colored Cut Filter glasses, and brand fanboy bias. </p>

<p>Its better than looking at the photographic world thru Rose Colored Cut Filter glasses, and brand fanboy bias. </p>

<p>Yeah, if you are a Nikon user for 40 years or threaten to switch to Canon that does not make you a fanboy at all. </p>

<p>It is a pity that you have common Leica M2 or M3 and not one of those really valuable Nikon black SPs with 50/1.1 lens and the original hood.</p>

<p>Don't stop. This is far too entertaining.</p>

<p>Where's the Pancake Bunny when you need him?</p>