Leica M full frame CCD sensor camera DIY prototype - with pictures!

<p>Yongfei, this is an amazingly ambitious poject! I wish you luck!</p>

<p>Question- can you shoot teathered to a PC with your back and get a live view image to focus correctly? Would probably be easier than guestimating focus, and with a sharp image, we could really see waht this thing can do!</p>

<p>Since you are concerned about risking damage to your Leica 35mm f/1.4 (which seems reasonable), you might want to get a less expensive wide-angle to experiment with. While the Russian 35mm f/2.8 Jupiter-12 is available inexpensively (one recently sold for $80 on a well-known auction site), it has a large, exposed, convex rear element, so it would not appear particularly well-suited for your experiments. Stephen Gandy (www.cameraquest.com) has a Voightlander 35mm f/2.5 Color Skopar C LTM in black finish available for $229. He also offers the same lens in M mount, designated the 35mm f/2.5 Color Skopar P Type II, for $319. A lot less to worry about than your Leica 35mm f/1.4 if the shutter hits the rear element, or the lens drops off your 3.5" diskette lensboard while taking pictures outdoors... </p>

<p>Michael, thanks for your good wishes. My struggle is not about guessing the focus distance, but about making it to focus at infinity. If you look at this Summicron-on-shutter picture, you will see that very long and sharp screw threads on the shutter end. So basically I have three choices: 1) cut it off to make it shorter; 2) reduce the lens plate further with a risk of scratching my CCD filter; 3) leave it as it is, and pretending that I don't even need a sharp picture to prove my point. My current choice is option 3;-)<br>

Nathan said it is retro, but I say it is really primitive. If I have free access to SK Grimes CNC machines, I will definetely use it:)</p><div></div>

<p>Right now, digtal back and "body" are just taped. In future, after I upgrade to a non-thethered back, I will get one of those custom made Hasseblad plate, and have a piece of thin wood or metal plate as the body. Then my last challenge is to adapt or make a Leica bayonet mount on the shutter. The 39mm screen mount thread is not a problem at all, as the #1 shutter has a 40mm thread.</p>

<p>Here is the interface plate that I am planning to use in future</p><div></div>

<p>Peter, as you've suggested, I may just use the scew mount 35mm to continue the testing. It is much easier to do. But I think people here are more interested in the 35mm/1.4 pictures. I may buy a No 3 or even larger shutter on eBay to continue with this image coverage test. But it could take a while to find a cheap but functional shutter.</p>

<p>You might be able to hack-saw the thread end of the shutter if you place a 1" wooden dowel into the hole. The wood needs to be tight enough on the threads to support the shutter so you don't bend anything, and all the metal bits need to be carefully vacuumed so they do not enter the shutter and damage it or scratch the CCD. I suspect the black corners on some of the photos to be shadows cast by the shutter, they do not look like the edges of a light circle of a lens. Another thing, many of those fuzzy photos look like camera shake... you need to find a way to attach the camera to a tripod mount. There is actually a company offering a professional version of your machine here, using common SLR mounts:<br>

http://www.kapturegroup.com/true/wide.html</p>

<p>The Sinar Copal shutter with a proper Leica M-> Sinar adapter board will be easier to do, since I saw your digital back already has a Sinar mount adapter. The Sinar Copal shutter has big enough opening so you can do it behind the lens, and the lens and CCD can be farily close to each yet safely apart.</p>

<p>Hi Bruce, this Sinar board is not mine:)<br>

Anyway, the CCD needs be to less than 28mm from the M lens mount. The shutter itself takes 20mm. If I need 5mm for a safe CCD distance, then I have about 3 mm to make adaptions. Or even less if you consider the true CCD surface is under a glass filter.<br>

Anyway, I have learned a lot with this project and may just put the back to where it belongs: I have a Hartblei camera that can synch under 1/30 using this back. So I already have too much fun with the Carl Zeiss Jena MF lenses. This Leica M project is just icing on the cake.</p><div></div>

<p>Hey...great work! This is totally cool and I hope as a new rangefinder convert that the emergence of a FF leica M is someday a reality. <br>

One question: what is this eyelike digital back and do they make them for Mamiya?<br>

Keep it up...love to see you going MacGyver on your available resources.<br>

Cheers,<br>

Jay</p>

<p>Great effort. Put it in a sexy black case with a red dot and you'll be able to sell it for a fortune.</p>

<p>btw<br>

I do hope you're not the first one that puth M glass on a FF sensor<br>

There is an adapter for canon that allows you to connect it to the 5D etc<br>

;-)</p>

<p>Brilliant work. I think the next step, as has been suggested, is to get an M mount camera, take off the back and get a sensor in where the film would be. As for wide angles, I can not see why, with the current low light sensitivity of CCD that the programming could be made such that the centre is at one sensitivity and the edges higher. That is to say, if you get a 2 stop difference from centre to edge then allow the edge to be two stops more sensitive. If the relative performance was calculated for each lens and programmed into the CPU then the current Leica lens coding used by the M8 would allow for much better wide angle performance with FF digital sensor whilst still allowing normal lenses to utilise the full frame at equal ISO. This might mean a maximum relative ISO of say 800, with the edges for a wide angle at an equivalent 3200 for example, but wouldn't it be worth it to use wide angle Leica glass as real wide angles? This is not beyond the realms of what any serious camera company could achieve today - so come on Leica (and if they don't then I might).</p>

<p>Jay, hope Leica can have the resource to further minimize its Imacon-R digital back and make it full frame. The Eyelike is similar to Sinar backs. It is an open platform back. You may use most of the MF or view cameras via dedicated adatptors (which is expensive or hard to find though). I like this open source idea.<br>

Alan, I would be happy to sell my stack of floppie disks for $100 which is a fortune for what they are. Then the collector can send them to Leica factory to paint an authentic red dot.<br>

Reinier, I am not sure if I am the first one who puts M glass on FF and took some pictures or not. I regret that I don't have enough resource to make it more accurate. One needs very little money and time to make a 80% functional camera. But to sequeeze the last 20%, one needs to spend a lot of time and a fortune.<br>

I believe the Canon adapter you are talking about is for Leica R, not M. Therefore, I claim myself to be the first (corporate or personal wise) in the world who has obtained Leica M lens image on a full frame sensor . Now I am waiting for Leica optical lab to show us otherwise, if they ever bothered to make some full frame prototype images to support their "currently full frame is not possible on M"claim. Also, don't forget to wait for Zeiss Ikon digital lab's response;)<br>

Stephen, I agree with your software enhancement approach, as shown on my Leica 35/1.4 test shots, a lot of things can be done by software.</p>

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<p>Reinier, I am not sure if I am the first one who puts M glass on FF and took some pictures or not.</p>

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<p>I can assure you that Leica has full-frame M prototypes with sensors from a number of different manufacturers. A friend who is a Leica representative was in Solms earlier this year....Leica is testing but they are not satisfied with the results.</p>

 

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<p>Therefore, I claim myself to be the first (corporate or personal wise) in the world who has obtained Leica M lens image on a full frame sensor.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Unfortunately for you - Leica has the full frame prototypes...</p>

 

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<p>Now I am waiting for Leica optical lab to show us otherwise, if they ever bothered to make some full frame prototype images to support their "currently full frame is not possible on M"claim.</p>

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<p>You're misconstrueing what Leica is saying. What they have said is that with the currently available sensors, they cannot provide a product that meets their performance requirements. There is a difference from providing a rudimentary image and making a camera that will work most all M lenses.</p>

<p>Steve, thanks for your insider information. It's good to hear that Leica is finding ways to build a full frame M.<br>

Yes, I agree that putting together a prototype camera and get some images is one easy thing, but to get high performance is a totally different game.</p>

 

<p>It seems many people would prefer to see a digital back that is mounted to a real M camera.<br />I MAY have a way to continue this project with a Voigtlander T or other M mount cameras. I prefer Voigtland because it is easier to modify, and also because it has 1/125 flash synch.<br>

But first I need to find a functional, used M mount camera. Destroying a brand new camera is not an environmental friendly behavior.<br>

If someone can help me buy a cheap one, please post your information here.</p>

<p>I agree that to make a full frame M camera that will work with most of all EXISTING M lenses may be a mission impossible. But technically, as my experiment shows, you can use Zeiss ZF equivalent lenses on the wide angle side and (relatively speaking) easily build a M with the current 16 bit full frame CCD techonolgy.<br>

Yes, this is a compromise. But to some users, this is less an compromise in nature than a cropped size CCD. Besides, all Nikon, Canon, Hasselblad and other manufactuers are using retrofocus design in their wide angle lenses. Leica can beat them with high precision, all metal design lenses. Besides, I think the current M8 is actually using 8 bit final raw file, which is against Leica's own claim of its high performance standard.</p>

<p>One of the problems with slapping this back on a real Leica is that the sensor itself is behind a glass protective barrier. In film cameras with a focal plane shutter, the shutter is placed as close to the film as physically possible... in order to maximize space behind the lens. On interchangeable back medium format cameras, the film plane is behind the mount by a few millimeters to allow for the dark slide and the mount itself. This will make it impossible to mount a medium format back to a 35mm focal plane shutter camera and still attain infinity focus. What really needs to be available is a focal plane shutter not attached to a camera, with mounts on both sides. I think there would be a market for such a device, especially in 6x6 size, as it could be used specifically for mounting 35mm camera lenses to 6x6 backs, as well as for mounting on LF cameras directly behind the lens. I've often thought it would be useful to strip down a Pentacon for just such a purpose... but it would be an expensive affair. Another thing you may consider is finding some Visoflex lenses, which will have a much longer registration distance. </p>

<p>Yongfei Lin, I just discovered this thread and quickly read through it. All I can say is that I offer you my encouragement and applause for the work you are doing. Keep it up, my friend!</p>

<p>What a great bit of fun! Thanks for sharing your adventures in camera building. </p>

<p>Godfrey</p>

<p>

<p>Patrick, really appreciate your thoughtful concern and understanding. However, most people here would like to see a digital back put on a real M camera, with nothing more or nothing less. So I have two choices here: 1) stop right here as it is today, believing that my box is conceptually an equivlant to a Leica M. 2) do as other people's wish (as well as my inner devil's wish) to put the CCD filter as close as possible (within 1mm) to the shutter. I should be able to get some decent images before the filter glass gets noticeably scratched. Does any insurance company provide an affordable CCD filter replacement insurance? I may need it;-)<br />If you look at my M11's picture, you can see that it has a "naked" CCD frame if the Hasselblad interface is taken away. Beautiful, isn't it? That's why I like the idea of open platform: buy a digital back for once, and play with it on all platforms and DIY projects. I think it is risky but possible to mount it on a Voigtlander M body. My secret plan will be: 1) cut a 24x36mm hole on my CCD's alminimum protective cover (unshown here, but it is something of the size of a match box); 2) glue this cover to those two film rails outside the shutter. 3) push back's CCD inside the protective cover as far as possible, right before the filter glass touches the shutter.<br />So it is easy for me to come up with this interfacing approach, but it really requires some high degree of precision to implement it.<br />BTW, Horseman's Digiflex can connect a Hasselblad V digital back, with Nikon lens mount. It seems that it was custom build on some Voigtlander's Bessa body parts. But like you said, they must have recessed the shutter inside the body to compensate for the increased distance caused by the back.<br />Godfrey, nice to see you here! I still remember reading your shared experience about your Rolleiflex cameras a few years ago. Then you moved on to some Sony or Olympus digital gear. Then I lost track of your adventure. But hope you didn't get lost in this digital jungle yourself;-)</p>

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<p>No, that adapter is for leica M<br>

but as I understand there are issues with focussing at infinity...or better that is not possible apperently ;-)<br>

So at least your the first that gets "sharp at infinity" images with a FF and Leica M glass :D</p>

<p>Reinier, good to know that such an adapter exists. Yes, people can adapt normal Leica M lens to as many SLR bodies as they wish, as long as they abandon the hope for infinity focus;-)<br>

BTW, I've found a way to further reduce the lens to CCD distance by another 1mm. And I will try to mount it on a tripod. I will retest the Summicron 50mm and a few other SLR lenses this weekend. Hope to get some sharp images this time. Stay tuned...</p>

<p>Yongfei, thank you for sharing your experiments! I thought following page may be of interest to you:<br>

http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/15mm_test1.html<br>

The Voigtländer lens tested there is optically identical to 15/4,5 in leica mount, and it behaves surprisingly well n front of Canon's full-frame sensor. Maybe this lens would take your central shutter too, if you could saw off its rear threads?</p>