al_bowers Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 I see that Leitz is now wading into the MF digital fray with their new Leica S2 camera. It sounds impressive. http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08092301_leica_s2.asp Did anyone go to Photokina and see it for themselves? With the 45 mm x 30 mm sensor (37.5 M pixels) and the proposed substantial lens line (24mm, 30mm, 70mm, 30-70mm zoom, 100mm, 120mm, 180mm, and 350mm), Leica could be a player... Al Bowers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg_jones1 Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Wow, that looks like a cool camera! Hmmm, I wonder if I could get an adapter to hook it on the back of my RZ? ;)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q.g._de_bakker Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 <a href="http://www.photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/00QwNE">http://www.photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/00QwNE</a>.<br>Where have you been? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin_ywain Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 Is the S2 actually such a big deal? I think Leica is stepping into Hasselblad H system's territory with the S2 where the Hasselblad is already very well established. This move seems strange especially when Leica's digital department seems to leave much to be desired - the M8 which seems like an overpriced piece of equipment that has departed from Leica's tradition as well as questionable image quality. I think much of Leica's allure lies in its timelessness and that is very much interlinked with the use of film. I wonder if even the die hard Leica fans would take out their money for their digital products. It's like having Swiss watch makers turning to digital... yikes I'll say that I'm not particularly well versed with digital MF. So... just take it as a ramble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Ingold Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 The principle innovation of the S2 is its rugged, weather-resistant body, in stark contrast to any existing medium format camera. This is done at the expense of an interchangeable back, which makes other MF digital cameras more flexible and nearly future-proof. The S2 has a 2:3 image format, whereas most other medium format digital backs have a 3:4 format, which most consider more practical for printing and publication. While larger than a full 35mm-sized sensor, it is smaller than the 36x48mm industry "norm". As in so many areas, size matters. Above all, the S2 bears the "Leica" marque, which should make most of us tremble and think "we are not worthy" :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_bowers Posted November 8, 2008 Author Share Posted November 8, 2008 QG: Sorry, I'm a bit slow on the uptake sometimes. Edward: my impression was the same, that the Leica S2 is making some inroads against Hasselblad H-series territory. However, my thought was that Leica is not making the same mistakes Hasselblad did, specifically, the S2 is not being sold as a rebadged Panasonic Lumix LMX-LXYZS2. The Leica cannot be called a Pana-eica, as many of us have called the H-series the Fuji-blad. However, Leica is making an original error, by not tackling the center of the market, the 48x36 size format. They went smaller in format (at the same time that Phase One is about to start shipping their REAL FULL FRAME 53.9 x 40.4 mm P65). So it is a bit odd. But still, as a first effort, it is impressive. And I am sure Leica is getting help from Panasonic, but the product is CLEARLY Leica, again in contrast to Hasselblad who's H-series heritage is not clearly Hasselblad but a mix of both Fuji and Hasselblad heritage... Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin_ywain Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 Hmm, after much thought, I suppose the only market for the S2 is for the people who meet the following criterias: 1) Rich, no doubt 2) Leica fan 3) and a maverick The money issue need no justification since the S2 is tentatively priced at a hefty 5 figure sum, which will buy a decent car even in Singapore where the taxes on car ownership is rather insane[but necessarily so]. The Leica fan seems to be a must since comparable offerings from Hasselblad is available and as mentioned, more future proof and possibly offering better image quality, since size does matter when it comes to digital sensors.. The maverick part comes in where the buyer must be almost certainly have a novel way of thinking to appreciate the S2. It comes from some of the oldest and most respected camera company in this day and it is offering something that is going on to digital, which loses it timeless allure, the reason why most Leica fans are paying a premium for its products. He'll also be a maverick in the sense that he is bringing a digital MF to the great outdoors, which appears to me a reportage/wildlife style of photography more suited to 35mm offerings in terms of speed[memory writing and AF speed] and weight[consider the glass, not the body alone]. I'm sceptical of the economic soundness of the S2 as a photographic tool, given the tough criteria the potential buyers will have to fit into and strong competition from Hasselblad. I suppose it's more targeted towards the rich and wealthy or the true blue Leica fan turned maverick, rather than the run of the mill photographer - even those who make a living off photography. As for the Leica marque, I don't suppose Hasselblad is that far off. To me at least, comparing the two companies is as good as comparing a Rolls Royce to a Bentley, virtually identical. Only time can tell whether the S2 will be a success I suppose. :-) Now you've got me wishing that I can lay my grubby hands on the Leica S2. Lol. By the time I earn enough money to purchase one however, I'm quite sure that Canon would have had entered the S2 format and I'll get a bargain product that'll leave S2 owners scratching their heads over their purchase. The only excuse then would be the Leica brand, which may or may not stick with their digital products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 <i>the Leica S2 is making some inroads against Hasselblad H-series </i><P>How can a camera that doesn't even have an availability date being "making some inroads" on a camera (series) that has been shipping for some time now? Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin_ywain Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 ". However, Leica is making an original error, by not tackling the center of the market, the 48x36 size format. They went smaller in format (at the same time that Phase One is about to start shipping their REAL FULL FRAME 53.9 x 40.4 mm P65). So it is a bit odd. " I thought of that too. But I suppose the S2 wouldn't be as compact as it is right now if it were to go FF or anywhere near FF. Which means the S2 is essentially compromising IQ for portability and style. Which is the key reason why I'm led to believe that it is a camera aims at the rich and the fans, rather than photographers who're out there for the pure sake of making images. But there maybe a market where 35mm FF photographers are tired of the limited image quality of the smaller format and wants to up one level to the S2, which seems less radical than buying a H-system in terms of handling. This maybe a very limited market however, given the cost prohibitive price of the S2 as well as the cost of "jumping ship". Maybe Leica is hoping that the disgruntled owners of the Canon 1Ds Mk III might hop on over. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q.g._de_bakker Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 Well... Hasselblad was quite upfront in letting us know that they (!) developed a camera, calling in the help of Fuji (and Minolta, and ... anyone who could supply the best of what they needed) for the bits they felt they better left to people who have the greater expertise and/or manufacturing facilities.<br>Just like they never made it a secret that the very good lenses they used were made by Kodak, Zeiss and Schneider, using shutters made by Compur and Prontor, viewfinders by Zeiss Ikon and Novoflex, focussing screens by Minolta. They don't make leather straps, vinyl coverings, etc. either.<br>Noone cared. Or rather: everyone cared! Just look at how the disappearance of the name Zeiss, now replaced by a mysterious "Hasselblad", still creates a stir.<br>Bad marketing perhaps, to let people know who helped you put the best in the hands of your customers (they removed the "Prontor" name from their CF lenses.)? But is it really?<br><br>Leica pretends every bit of what you get is made by Leica.<br>Does anyone believe every bit is? We all CLEARLY know that it indeed is a "Paneica" or similar chimera. We also are given the idea that Leica woud rather not have us know. Or what?<br>I would not mind knowing that. for instance, the weather-proofing of the Leica body was done by that company with the red dot: Knirps. ;-) But as things stand, i can only hope that they indeed have called in the help of people who know what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsimmons Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 The 30mm tilt shift lens alone will create a capability that no other MF digital camera currently has. The 24mm t/s lens for Canon is not as sharp in the corners as most architectural photographers would like. The S2 will be looked at pretty seriously by those folks. I don't think the S2 will have a huge market, but it will definitely find a market. Leica knows the numbers will be small.They went out of their way at Photokina and in the press release to state that the camera is designed for working pros. i.e. "those who are making enough money from photography to justify the purchase." Pros that bill $1500 a day for their work, and work steadily enough, will be able to make the purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 <i>will create</i><P>Well there's the operative word, "will." Meaningless until something is actually available. I can't imagine anybody seriously working that might put off a purchase because of what "will" happen. Maybe the people that buy $50K watches, but that's a pretty small audience since it excludes virtually all photographers. Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsimmons Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 You're right, Jeff. If a pro needs gear to shoot a job next week, he or she will not be buying something that is only available next year. One of those space/time conundrum things. But when the S2 is available, and I have no doubt that it will be sometime in the next year, I would think that a small set of well-paid working pros will seriously consider it and purchase it. Not me. I've got a very nice kit of MF and LF gear that does my work nicely, and at my low volumes, could not justify it. Will the number of purchasers be enough to justify Leica making the system? I don't know, but I bet it will do a beautiful job for those folks that do buy into the system. It seems quite well thought out to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_w1 Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 i think the S2 is aimed at rich hobbiests, not pros. but with the global market crisis continuing, maybe leica would be well-advised to put the project on hold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desmond_kidman Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I am amazed at this new platform being planned by Leica. As is mentioned above, how will they sell enough to make this a viable venture? With the H system having been proven over several years, why would someone investing this amount of money take a chance elsewhere? I have heard of a few complaints about support of the short-lived digital R system. I for one would not be ready to go with this new system until several years of history of refinement and great support had been shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_swinehart Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Leica has a number of S2's out with pro photographers right now having them evaluate the camera prior to final manufacture. They also have a waiting list of photographers who want the camera because: it's not much larger than a dSLR; it's the only medium format that's weather sealed; and the lenses are (according to the Leica designers) - some of the best they've ever made. All of the lenses at photokina were working lenses - not props or models. If photographers are buying $30-40K medium format backs - there's no reason they won't purchase the S2. Leica knows the market price point they have to attain - and yes - I get regular emails from both Hasselblad and Phase One with the latest "deals." The best I've seen is the Phase One camera, 30mp digital back + 3 lenses for $30K. So, if you're shooting professionally - the S2 with 2 lenses at a $30K price point would make it very attractive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aman1 Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 <p>I think Leica S2 comes nearest to a modern camera for professional use from Leica since the invention of autofocus! About sensor size Nikon D3X quality is being said to be comparable to 22 MP MF backs (except Dynamic Range), even with 2 times sensor size differences. So, I doubt the sensor size of 30 x 45 vs 36 x 48 will make that much difference. They do not have legacy MF lenses, and there is no film version, so focal length multiplication factor also does not play a role.<br> <br /> Three things that will affect, are:</p> <ol> <li>The 2 fps shooting speed. The Hasselblad H3D-II/39 MP is approx 0.7 fps.</li> <li> Smaller size than all MF systems currently. If somebody gave me the choice of any camera I want, for free, I still won't choose any MF camera today just because I won't carry it with me because of its size.</li> <li>Most important - the leica lenses. The lenses affect the image quality more than the sensor, and with leica's reputation, their lenses could definitely be significantly better than the Hasselblad or Mamiya ones. They are all faster than Hassy/Mamiya ones, and published MTF curves are unbelievably good.</li> </ol> <p>If there turns out to be more than noticeable image quality difference, I bet current digital MF users will want one. S2 has none of the quirks of M-system or R-system which reduces it to a novelty camera. So, the improved image quality does not come at a cost of having to living with manual focus or using film, as it used to be with Leica.<br> <br /> Just, if they price it right. They have mentioned that pricing will be competitive to the market. About the economy - its highly unpredictable what works and what not. Mamiya just said that their DL28 is doing fine, and it costs $15k. So, if Leica S2 is within $20K with normal lens, it will be cheaper than Hassy H3D-39 kit and similar to new Mamiya DL33 kit.<br> <br /> So, in the end, I predict it will come down to choice between going with changeable backs vs the 3 points above. This decision is not so obvious.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottelly Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 <p>I don't think the price is very high. I think it's actually worth MORE than the Hassy for some people. If I want the best camera I can get with the best possible picture in the rain forest or arctic, or if I wan to be able to carry my digital camera, and I'm a 70 year old guy with the lightest tripod I can get ($5,000), I'm also going to want to carry a light camera. If I've got $300,000 in the bank, because I'm a good saver and I've been selling prints for $500 each weed for the last few years, I'm probably going to buy the Leica. If I'm a rich guy who wants the ultimate SLR, but I don't want something that weighs much more than a Nikon D3x, I'm probably going to buy the Leica. If I'm a product or fashion studio manager looking for a new system other than the Hassy stuff we already have, that can handle shooting outdoors, I might decide on the Leica.<br>Oh, and the price is NOTHING compared to what some people pay for their Red camera systems - just to put things into perspective here. The Leica S2 sure seems like a home run to me. I hope it goes well for Leica, because when I get the money together (if I ever do), I'll be buying one (or maybe even two!) of those beasties. I LOVE Leica (just can't afford them).</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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