What's the next step to promote critiquing ?

To tell you the truth, it's been years now, that I find the critiques weeker and weaker on this and on all other

photo sites. Photo.net is at this point the last place where I still upload images, but the only reason why I do

so is because there are some folks - like Jeff Grant, Doug Burgess, Michael Chang, Mike Dixon, and a perhaps

another handful of people - who still bother thinking carefully and who write something interesting about each

picture they comment - positive or negatives alike.

 

Unfortunately, very few pictures are perfect, and so I consider, that the only way to write useful comments about

any picture, is to say what you like AND WHAT YOU DON'T. I wish more people could do that, but that's not the

trend, nowadays. Most people call many pictures great - which might sometimes be sincere, and sometimes not. Some

people seem to have decided they'd only speak about the good things and leave the negatives aside. Some folks

probably haven't matured their eye well enough to be able to identify what they dislike in a picture that they

generally like, but I don't think that's the majority. So, at the end of the day, where are all the folks willing

to offer real comments and sincere opinions ? And what's been done to encourage these people to write a little more ?

 

I wish something could be done to encourage careful critiquing. Is there anything planned regarding this matter ?

 

Honestly, I hardly get any useful information from a bunch of ratings by folks who do not explain what they

think. Once in a while, I post a picture which gets a lot more ratings than most of my pictures do, and that's

perhaps the only useful information I can get from ratings. Almost every picture I post gets the whole rainbow of

ratings, from 3 to 7, and what the ratings are no longer matters: only the NUMBER of ratings and the number of

views may, at times, be of any use as an indication about people's interest... But comments are of course useful

- at least most of the time... And when I or anyone requests a CRITIQUE, I don't think it means "Thanks for your

ratings" !

 

For what it's worth, I used to write a lot more than I do now, and I'm still prepared to spend a little more time

on this site, but nowadays, I decided to give what I get - no more, no less. Didn't the site's silly rating

culture year after year exhaust most of the goodwilling folks who would have been prepared to offer constructive

criticism ? Isn't it time to do something about it ?

 

For example, I wish there could at least be a few checkboxes somewhere in the "rate recent" queue, for all serial

raters who can't spend time writing a comment. In order to rate a picture, you'd need to check at least two of

these checkboxes:

 

1. "Technically ok, but uninteresting".

2. "Not very good technically, but interesting".

3. "Technically ok, and interesting".

4. "Technically ok, and very interesting".

5. "Technically very good, but uninteresting".

6. "Under-exposed"

7. "Over-exposed"

8. "Blown highlights".

9. "Bad lighting"

10. "Bad composition"

11. "Lighting is not very good."

12. "Composition is not very good".

13. "Tones/colors/contrast are not very good."

Etc.

 

These are just a few suggestions, and the list would of course need to be thought out more carefully, but you get

my point: guide people so they'd at least - at the cost of very little time - say something useful to the

photographer.

 

More ideas to promote discussions and criticism on the site...? Any thoughts...? Thanks for your contribution.

I am guilty of not rating enough photos vs the requests I have made, but I'm trying to change that. I try to at

least check out the new photos in my "Interesting People" section and make comments where appropriate, but I need

to expand to the general critique request population. I find that I have only rated photos that appeal to me

(all my ratings are 5,6,7s) and it's really not very helpful to those that need it the most I guess. I have

actually tried to make more useful comments and less ratings lately and I spend much more time in the forums

trying to be helpful. The problem I have is where people ask for comments, but don't really want them (unless

you tell them it's the best shot you've seen here yet). Spending time to really evaluate a photo,

write up a nice critique that the poster apparently didn't really want, only to have them remove the shot and

re-post it and wipe out all that hard work isn't exactly helping to encouraging people to take the time to do it.

However, If I can figure out how add a few extra hours in the day that I wouldn't spend with my family, working,

or taking pictures, I promise to make more comments on photos here.

I also have the same frustration, I often use rate photos as a discipline to view an image and make a rating, but at other times I use the critique forum to actively seek out interesting images and then write some comments about what makes the images interesting. I also find that having made those comments the photographers mostly do not respond back, does that suggest they are uninterested in my comments? who knows, there is just no dialogue...

easily answered. Most people here seem more concerned about competition than about photography as such, hence

the popularity of the rating system. Some time ago I proposed to get rid of it. According to the mods it would create

something like all out war here, maybe they're right.

Secondly most people here are afraid to step on other people's toes afraid that they will be paid back in kind.

Thirdly, a lot of people who are just starting out could be afraid to comment on work from a accomplished

photographer as yourself.

Fourth, a lot of people simply skip photo's that they consider very good.

Fifth, not a lot of people know how to write a meaningfull comment/critique. To be honest, it is damned hard.

Sixth, a lot of people keep complaining about this but don't get their finger out themselves.

Lastly, how many people out there are willing to tell you WHAT THEY DON'T LIKE do you think? Not a lot I gather

which actually is fairly ironic because if there is one safe place where you can say what you want it's the internet.

 

So all in all I've no high hopes for a significant change. What it all comes down to is finding some people who you

can trust to give you an honest opinion.

As stated frequently in the past, the sheer number of photos being posted for critique has diluted the number of

useful comments given out by the small number of those who are willing to take the time. It has been suggested

many times that by establishing a "circle of friends" one could obtain a greater number of beneficial remarks on

their work. My preference is to critique, and be critiqued by, as diverse a group of photographers as possible.

The idea of mandatory critiques is another frequently suggested idea, and is just as frequently discounted as a

viable solution. I have been a member for only three years and have seen the quality of critiques diminish

significantly in that time. A change is obviously necessary.

 

 

Although I am not proposing a solution to this problem, I am thinking of adopting an approach to rating &

critiquing that may work for me. In the rate recent queue, I won't skip over photos that don't appeal to me or I

don't understand. I will rate everything. The ratings should not be considered a serious judgment of an image,

but (as Bob Atkins frequently says) more of a popularity contest. When I encounter a photo that I think I can

critique in a useful way, I will stop and select that image for commenting. Being an amateur I will tend to

select those that my limited knowledge can be applied. If a photo is truly outstanding and I am compelled to

comment, I will. As a side note, I frequently find the thumbnails images in the critique forum too small to

select one for commenting.

 

 

Until the staff at PN can implement a new approach to rating & critiquing, we have to make the best of the

current system.

Greater separation of the critique and ratings system. The ability of users to say "I will accept anonymous critiques". Some sort of voting system for marking critiques good/bad. More carrots (recognition/rewards for people who are dedicated at giving useful critique) and sticks (really better for ratings, forcing critiques may not work). Better education on what makes a good critique, perhaps a monthly "critique example" in the newsletter.

 

These are some of the things that I am working on with the programmers. I'm open to hearing more suggestions as well. Unlike the angry pointless ratings arguments. This thread by Marc is the kind of discussion that can bring something new to the table.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that we want to keep things as simple as possible. The more complicated we make things, the less likely people are to actually do them.

<i>"The ratings should not be considered a serious judgment of an image, but (as Bob Atkins frequently says) more of a popularity contest."</i>

<p>

This is something that I would like to pound into everyone's head and something that will guide some upcoming changes. Ratings are there for fun, for a general guide of "do people like this", and for a popularity contest. The idea that photographers can learn anything from a set of numbers has to be eradicated. It is untrue and counterproductive.

"..The ability of users to say "I will accept anonymous critiques"..

 

I hope this will never happen. Anonymous is the problem not the solution (IMHO).

When a person is here to learn, it would be nice to know who is the teacher/"teacher" (IMHO).

Any system for anonymous critiques will be at the critique requester's (is that a word?) option ONLY. If you do not want anonymous critiques, you will never have to accept them.

 

But the fact is that there are many MANY good photographers who have given up on leaving critique because people have proven over and over that they cannot handle honest opinions of their work. They flip out, retaliate with awful comments or emails, and generally act like children. They don't want to hear what is wrong, they just want to hear "Great shot!". So you have a large number of photo.net photographers who simply say "well screw this, I'm not wasting my time with these idiots." This is a real disadvantage to the sizable chunk of photo.net users who DO want to hear honest critique.

 

If we do add in this option, as with "anonymous" ratings, no comment will ever be truly anonymous. Admins will be able to see who has left every comment and all the usual site rules will still apply. Anyone caught abusing the system will have their critique system ability rescinded.

Narcissism is a common trait among photographers who like to hear themselves write long treatises.

Mr Josh,

 

I understand It would be optional. What I said is that critiques are not only for the poster photographer but also for all public that can read it (otherwise it could be just emailed). I would like to know who writes the critique. Under anonymity persons can write everything.

To be fair the system has worked, but it takes the right kind of people. I have given some helpful but semi harsh critiques that were received well. I even gave a "What were you thinking" kind of critique to a person I believe is well established photographer here, and she was most kind in sending me an email THANKING me for an honest critique.

 

Tom stated above "Thirdly, a lot of people who are just starting out could be afraid to comment on work from a accomplished photographer...". This is very true and how I felt a year ago, but I have mentioned before on threads like this that even beginners can identify poorly composed pictures or out of focus subjects. You need to get comfortable with the process at some point, and your confidence will grow as your experience does.

 

I am sure no rating\critique system will be perfect, to many people can't separate their passion for their children, pets, etc from the quality of the shot.

 

Josh, allowing people to accept anonymous critiques is works for me, but maybe requiring a person to be a subscriber or a member for some length of time would limit the hit and run meaningless anonymous critiques. Not to many people are going to pay to give purposefully useless critiques (I know there will still be some)

borrowing from Robert's idea of "circle of friends", perhaps there could be groups established just for critique, borrowing on the anonymous critique, perhaps the critique could be applied from the established circle of friends critique, hence not totally anonymous...

<i>"but maybe requiring a person to be a subscriber or a member for some length of time would limit the hit and run meaningless anonymous critiques"</i>

<p>

That isn't a bad idea. I will have to think about that.

Carey,

 

The concept of "critique groups" has existed in the past (but wasn't done well from a programming standpoint) and are on my list for the future. But that is something that I see as a "second tier" project. I've got ratings cheaters and increasing critiques to take care of first.

 

Good thinking though.

I've proposed some time ago to built in a uncheck box clearly stating one doesn't want to receive any ratings. If nothing else it would at least make clear to other people that one is only interested in comments/critiques. It was considered to be a good idea. Still on the slate?

Isn't that the "Submit For Critique Only" option?

 

"Submit for critique only

 

Note: Checking this box will permanently disable ratings on your photo, and cause any ratings of the photo that have already been made to be deleted."

in essence yes but I proposed a way to unable it permanently because sometimes you just forget to tick that box.

Also it would make the following much more of a statement

 

"The idea that photographers can learn anything from a set of numbers has to be eradicated. It is untrue and

counterproductive"

 

so there might be a remote chance this will finally sink in.

<i>"so there might be a remote chance this will finally sink in."</i>

<p>

Sink in for who? I have said that for years now. In fact, I'd challenge anyone to find anywhere where I have ever claimed that you could learning anything (other than a general "do people like this image") from ratings.

<p>

Sink in for the other users? We can always hope.

<p>

I'm not going to spend programmer time creating a new system just so you can avoid having to remember a checkbox. That would be a waste of time when I've got other things that the programmers should be working on. The future solution lies in my "greater separation" statement and in changing the submission process for sending an image for critique or for ratings or for both.

I should clarify, it's not that I think setting up systems so that users can always do things their "default" way is a waste of time. I think it's a waste of time right now when the system is going to change shortly anyway.

Josh,

I like the idea of separation. Perhaps those entering the critique "stream" could have a probationary period. It would have to be cast in a positive light like an "in training" icon. Perhaps a limit to 2 or 3 critiques a day to prevent the flybys during that period. I suppose having someone review their comments would be too burdensome to qualify to have the limit lifted but having it lifted after a period of time would hopefully have pushed them to think about what they are doing.

I think there truly are two groups of people, those who are hear to have fun and play with the ratings, and those who want to learn and improve. Having groups with two different needs almost begs for two different playgrounds. Thanks Marc for starting such a positive thread.

<i>"I think there truly are two groups of people, those who are hear to have fun and play with the ratings, and those who want to learn and improve."</i>

<p>

There absolutely are multiple groups wanting different things on photo.net. And that is a large part of why stuff like this (and my job in general) can be so difficult at times.

Well, that's more than just a good start ! :-) By the way, I do not mind the idea of anonymous critiques, Stamoulis - provided it brings new people to express their opinions. Think about it carefully... Of course you'd probably like to know it, when very good photographers drop by and leave a comment, but they'd hopefully leave their name at the end of their critique - especially if you request that they do so. The point of anonymous critiques would rather be for the others, who lack the confidence or who wouldn't want to offend someone with their opinion. I can understand, that some people may feel "unqualified" to criticize a picture posted by what they see as a "better" photographer. But in the end, these people have an opinion, and most people would be interested in it. People who visit photo exhibitions are not all pro photographers - thanks God ! :-) Does it mean professionals should ignore what they think ?! Sometimes a pro gets lost in technicalities, whereas an amateur always knows well what he FEELS when he sees a picture. End of the day, I think the pro may make valid comments, but the amateur could have a smarter overall assessment of the picture's content or emotional value.

 

These people who aren't pros - and who will sometimes even be beginners - do not pretend to be "teachers" anyway, and so we don't really need their name. What we do need, imo, is their voice - be it anonymous. A voice that expresses an opinion, a like, a dislike, even though it may not be thoroughly explained. I thought a couple of checkboxes could help people to express themselves quickly. In fact, I bet it would work. But anything else, that would make them more comfortable commenting will be fine.

 

And promoting good critiques is a good idea too, obviously.

 

Finally, I'd like the site to propose a way to invite photographers to COMPARE pictures of the same kind...

For example, if I have 5 pictures in a series (or 5 versions of a single picture), and can't decide which one is better - which happens all the time -, it would be nice to be able to upload all 5 pictures at once in a place where people could pick their favorite. And similarly, I have often in the past suggested a THEME OF THE WEEK discussion, where we would be able to compare 20 landscapes posted by different photographers, or 20 portraits, etc. COMPARING is, in my view, the essence of good photography. We all compare pictures when we look through our viewfinder in the first place. And then again after the photo session, when we do a selection... So wouldn't it be great to be able to share thoughts on this as well, in some corner of the site...?

<i>"Finally, I'd like the site to propose a way to invite photographers to COMPARE pictures of the same kind... For example, if I have 5 pictures in a series"</i>

<p>

I have thought about this in the past. It could be helpful and cool if we are able to do it (but avoid the temptation for people to use it as a "look at this whole pile of images I'm too lazy to put one by one in the critique forum").

<p>

Overall, the suggestions in your last paragraph are interesting ones worthy of further thought/discussion. However, for my part, I'm going to back-burner them for now. We've got a lot of other work to do on this aspect of the site before we can get to adding interesting new stuff. But we will get there.

I like the idea of anonymous critiques and the check box would take of those that are afraid of getting some real criticism.