Bride Refusing to Pay - Advice Needed

There is no indicia that someone "needs" a break or extra time here. According to the information given, communications have been ignored, lame assertions made, no one has asked for leniency and so on. There is no evidence that any one is struggling, and there is plenty showing that there is game playing. The responses here have been positive about providing equivilent or like services and making reasonable accomodations.

Tyler said... "give her break and let her pay the day of the wedding or workout something else to help her."

 

Did you read the part about the bride refusing to return phone calls? How exactly do you propose the

photographer be "open and help [the bride]" if the bride won't talk to her?

 

"All you greedy photographers you don't seem to care about anything but the money."

 

This is just condescending. What do you think puts food on a photographers table? I'll give you a hint, it's

green and smells like money. This job could be a weeks worth of income for the photographer. What would you do

if you showed up at work and they had decided to "let you work for free for a week?"

 

Having a photographer at a wedding is a luxury, not a necessity. If they can't afford it they should be up front

and honest instead of trying to steal it.

Tyler, I have to say something, Usually I just read and learn..

 

I won't comment on the legalities. I wouldn't show up and take pictures in hope of her paying. Renee HAS tried to talk to the bride, he has left two messages. How many messages does he(she?) have to leave? The fact is the bride is the one not talking or returning the calls. Renee is trying to be helpful and certainly accommodating.

 

So what if the bride is running low on cash? So what if she is embarassed? Since she is getting married it's time to grow up and face reality.

 

I'll agree, the Photographer is not the only thing that has to paid. I'll bet the caterer is paid in full and nobody has eaten yet. I'll bet the fancy limos are paid for and nobody has been driven anywhere yet. I'll bet the dress is paid for. I'll bet the brides maid dresses are paid for and so on. Why should we as photographers not be paid for beforehand as well? Just because it's her "special" day photographers should just "give her a break"? She knew what the costs of the wedding are and if she couldn't afford it then she should have cut something out of her plans.

 

Sure, when she returns the calls and deals with the issue, I'll give her a break if warranted. If she actually returns Renees' call's and says I'll have the money for you at the wedding say "Ok, but it will have to be cash". Then show up as arranged if she doesn't have the money, go home and spend the day with your family. (The day before would be better and more logical as the wedding is most likely on a weekend and if she has the cash then she will certainly have gotten it the day before as there is no way she will be heading to the bank in here wedding dress dress. That also makes it easier to walk away)

 

You bet I care about the money. That's how I feed my kids and wife. Has nothing to do with greed and has everything to do with business and paying what is owed. It's called being a professional.

 

You bet, I've needed plenty of breaks from people and bills in my life and you know what? I get them because I take responsibility and talk to the other party and then live up to my end.

 

Renee has given her plenty of breaks

 

The only person that would be better off if they follow what you suggest is the bride. Renee will still be out the time and money. I will also wager there will be no end to the "problems" she (the bride) will have with the final photos as well.

 

I'm with John H., I wouldn't take much stock in any references from this person. In fact, if I did get any I would probably think twice. Her friends are probably just like her. Sounds like you have plenty of work and references without hers anyways.

 

I'm also with G.E.

 

I would leave one last message (since she doesn't answer the phone or leave messages) followed with with a similar read receipt email and a double registered letter outlining my position. Every one of the them polite and business like and then react accordingly.

 

There has to be a final clear cut resolving of this before the wedding. Either it's bought and paid for BEFORE the day or crystal clear notice that Renee won't be there so there is no misunderstanding on the brides part.

 

Sorry Tyler not trying to be nasty. As someone said once or twice "It's not personnel, it's just business" :)

 

Just my .0003 cents worth. :)

"I no longer put any freebies in the contract. If I want to give someone something it is a gift and is not in the contract."

 

Very sound. Once its in the contract, its not a freebie, its an obligation. It can be tailored to act like a freebie though. A contract can specify that there will be a free portrait shoot if the full payment is made by some specified date or something like that. Any good contract should spell out what happens in the event that some or all services are cancelled due to the fault of the photographer, the client or circumstances beyond anyone's control.

Renee,

 

Have you thought about filing a small claims suit against the Bride? I sure that there are books on Amazon.com that tell the individual how

to file such a suit.

 

After that, see if you can find an attorney who'll sell you 30 minutes of time to look over your case. This attorney should be able to tell you

if you have a case or you don't have a case.

I like this response, and if it were me....keeping in mind my total lack of experience, but knowing how much easier it is to be the "good guy" which I'm feeling you'd rather try and stay....this might be a good way to go...

 

"Renee:

 

I'm assuming that you have all but a small percent of your normal fee?

 

Shoot the wedding. But don't release any pictures until paid in full. In fact, I would put the images in a safe place and not even work on them until payment is received, and I would let her know this.

 

At the point in time when she chooses to continue to honor the contract, you can, too. :)

 

Eric"

You need to see an attorney. There may be a problem with your contract, or not.

 

I assume that you got a deposit from the bride. If you did, and the bride doesn't make payment, I expect that you will keep the deposit. The problem is that keeping the deposit may be considered a forfeiture, or liquidated damages, depending on the law in your state.

 

If it is a forfeiture, you could be required to pay it back. If it is liquidated damages, you can keep it. Ask a lawyer familiar with the law in your state.

 

While you're there, have the lawyer add contract language making the deposit "liquidated damages". Then you'll be OK for next time.

 

Tyler, because the photographer was tied up for that time frame by contract, he couldn't seek substitute employment. And that's the reason for him retaining the deposit. To compensate the photographer for a missed opportunity.

Hi, What a bind!

 

Okay, If you have not heard from her after making several attempts I'd say walk...but

 

Make one last attempt to call and send a registered letter breaking down the full history of the Business relationship, including (if possible) times and dates of attempts to contact her. Also include in the letter a tactful, 'If your personal situation has changed please advise by return, this is important'. Heaven for bid but the whole thing could have blown up and the poor girl is sitting with an altered dress and no Groom!

 

In any court in any land this will be recognised as acting above and beyond and showing understanding for a potential change in the clients needs, advertised to you or not as the case may be.

 

I would end the letter with a statement to the effect, should you not hear from her and receive payment by return (Give her till end of the week...but do not say...return is just that!), you will be left with no other alternative but to rescind your obligation due to frustration of contract. (holes or no holes this should be water tight, especially despite giving her several opportunities to respond she has not!...but DO check with an Attorney!!) Also indicate that ( do not recall you saying) any Non-refundable deposit will be held back as per the contract (Again...check terms and fair contract issues). Refund the balance and state your extreme disappointment with the situation and that in your entire career as a Wedding Photog this is a first and you hope a last. (Do not under play your disappointment. this is lost business...good or Bad!) Also indicate that you waited a few days after the final communication in the hope you would hear from her...you're making yourself the good guy here!

 

If you can (short notice granted) see if you can fill the date...otherwise enjoy the day off and be good to you and yours!

 

Don't get emotional this is Business first and foremost...it's, hard cold move plus a let down and a minor blip in what sounds an exemplary track record. Move on, you have 500 good references and one possibly Bad one you can refute with ease...Not a worry!

I'm not a professional photographer, but I spent 8½ years helping my parents manage their bridal salon. All of you

who are wedding photographers know that the closer it gets to the wedding date the more irrational brides may

become.

 

I'll repeat the most accurate and sensible advice you've been offered -- see an attorney. The only thing I'll add to the

advice is "immediately". It doesn't matter what anyone here thinks your result will or should be. Your agreement with

the bride is governed by a contract that will be determined by the laws of your jurisdiction. Since none of us have

seen the contract, none of us can give you sound legal advice.

 

If you choose to act without consulting an attorney, you significantly increase your chances of being sued. If that

happens, it won't matter if you are right or wrong, you'll still have to spend a lot of time and, unless your legal fees

are covered by an insurance policy, a lot of money defending yourself. In any event, it will be unpleasant.

 

Good luck. I hope this is resolved soon so that both of you can put it behind you.

 

Joel

 

[MODERATOR NOTE: Last name, location and title removed. Personal Information can be obtained by clicking on the full name of the poster.]

" ...end the letter with a statement to the effect, should you not hear from her and receive payment by... ...you will be

left with no other alternative but to rescind your obligation due to frustration of contract."

 

Is this the best language? Talk of rescinding a obligation when the assertion is that there is no obligation to

rescind in the first place suggests there may be one afterall. "Frustration" is a contract defense that is very

undesirable to this situation. Go with the 'check with an attorney' part instead.

 

"state your extreme disappointment with the situation and that in your entire career as a Wedding Photog this is a

first and you hope a last."

 

What business purpose is served by adding this lecturing language when it may only serve to agitate someone who

may be undesirable to deal with? Less is often more in effective communication. Proper use of precious 'space" is

important. Why should venting take a priority over language confirming relevent events that bolster the position of the

service provider?

 

I agree with the discussion about not taking thing personally and treating this as a business matter. Cost benefit

analysis for each option is useful. Aggravation counts in such analysis but know it may come in different forms and

places. What is best for the business should be afforded great weight.

""Also, if you don't show, she will bad mouth you all over the place. A letter from an attorney will most

likely silence her."

 

Both will inspire negative comments. If the bride has the ability to hire a new photographer with whatever

refund is due, the backlash will probably be limited. The letter will ensure negative backlash no matter

what and any shoot going forward will be miserable at best. Complaints after the fact will ensue on so

on."

--

The letter may inspire negative backlash - which she (OP) will get no matter what. BTW, I have never

heard someone who is contacted by an attorney mouth off that they were in the wrong and will be sued

if they don't honor their end of the contract. That makes them sound like they are bragging they are

getting sued. People have a tendency to shut up if they will make themselves look bad.

Pretend you're a doctor and just do it; you seem like a nice person. Send her a bill and maybe she' ll send you what SHE

thinks the job is worth. If you're lucky the partial payment may come close to paying your overhead.

Joel pretty much summed it up...

 

Doesn't matter how nice you or how "nice" you want the bride to be see a lawyer and protect yourself.

 

If you show and take photos on spec, you will get screwed,

If you show up in hopes of being paid take the photos and then hold them til you get paid you'll get screwed.

 

I'd also add judging by her behaviour so far, if you get the photos give them to her she will find something to

complain about "You didn't get a picture of my dog licking the ice cream off little Jessica's nose! How could

you, my wedding is ruined!, I am going to sue.!" Seen it..

 

Seeing a lawyer doesn't mean you have to take legal action against her. You are just getting the proper legal

advice you are asking of us. It may you cost lets say $200 , that is cheap insurance when balanced against what

you might be out if you go ahead without proper legal advice.

 

We always laugh at people who get little Johnny with a entry level SLR they received the day before and then

complain about the quality. Can you hear the gaffaws if this forum was for lawyers and they were talking about

somebody getting legal advice from the cousin thinking about going to law school? We should take our own advice

and hire a professional.

 

Best way to protect your reputation is to be right.

 

 

Who knows this all may (hopefully) be unwarranted and she comes through with flying colours and this all may be

wasted bandwidth, but be ready..

"I have never heard someone who is contacted by an attorney mouth off that they were in the wrong and will be sued if they don't honor their end of the contract. That makes them sound like they are bragging they are getting sued. People have a tendency to shut up if they will make themselves look bad."

 

While you are right that people don't tend to repeat things that make them look bad, you seem to have missed the fact that such people frequently deflect blame to others, especially when they have it in their head that they are the one in the right. If all this story is true, we would not be surprised that a comment like this will be made... 'That scumbag photographer tried to charge me for services he didn't perform and then sicked a lawyer on me.'

If you are having this much trouble up front imagine the headaches you are going to have after the wedding and after your investment in

time and effort. Do you think she will laugh at any of your jokes at this point? I'm sure you are a perfectly amiable person, but this bride is

not going to be on your side on the day of the wedding. Bad customers beget bad customers. I think the damage is done at this point (by

her not you) I would bail out of this job ASAP. I once had a bride that would not admit that her wedding had been cancelled just days prior

to the appointed date. You have to protect yourself from people acting in bad faith and this is what you have here. There is a good chance

she is trying to construct an excuse to hustle you. There are people like this everywhere.

This really is a simple case of someone breaching an agreement. you shouldn't shoot the wedding, you shouldn't hold the photos hostage. You should do what the contract says. If your contract says that you are paid in full before you take photos then you should get payment in full before you shoot. Not adhering to the contract will create a lot of trouble for you.

 

Have an attorney look over the contract before the wedding to make sure the breach is clear and that the document fully supports your actions. Otherwise you could have a legal problem. If an attorney looks at the contract and says she is clearly in breach, case closed, send her a certified letter (or better, have the attorney do it) and be done with her. Not the sort of bride you want to deal with.

 

Again, I deal with this stuff everyday in another industry. It seems few people read or respect contracts but usually a letter from the attorney is all that is required to remind them of the document they signed.

Are you a PPA member -- with your experience I assume so, if not join today. They will call her!

 

Otherwise I agree, stick with your contract. Send her a reigstered letter stating that according to the contract payment must be paid in full. We require payment ahead of time and the request a certified check if paid less than two weeks before the wedding.

 

Let us know how you make out. We all get a client like this eventually, but be loyal to your contract.

Geoff pretty much said what i was going to say. If a attorney says your contact is good follow the contract to the T and don't stray from it. If you stray from it she can claim its null and void. Also i would have a attorney look over all contracts yearly incase of law changes to make sure your contract is in good standing.

Being right or wrong does not really matter with the law. Your best bet is to walk away. BUT you must do this safely.

 

Give the bride a chance to have all her money back in return for signing a waiver that you are no longer needed at the wedding. Make sure a lawyer writes the waiver for you.

 

Result - you will be free of a potential legal hassle that will taunt you for years. OR she may apologies and pay up.

 

But make sure you offer all her money back. Yes you have had hassle, but not as much as could ensue. Get outta there and cover you’re a#@e.

The general consensus to seek legal advice immediately is sound. We don’t know what the contract says, so we’re not in a position to give proper advice.

 

Having said that, two general comments:

 

(1) I agree with others that you should try not to let it rattle you. Treat it as a business matter, not a personal insult.

 

(2) I have to disagree strongly with a few people who have suggested that you should shoot the wedding anyway and hold onto the pictures until you get payment. That seems to me a terrible idea. You would be playing games with your client, and playing games is not what professionals do, no matter how bad their clients are. If the contract obliges her to pay in advance (repeat: check with your lawyer), and she doesn’t pay, then I wouldn’t shoot the wedding. I also wouldn’t leave it until the last minute to tell her that. Give her a chance to make alternative arrangements. If you’re going to pull out, be firm and clear, and do it soon.

1.- Be the better person.

2.- Speak to an attorney.

 

Best wishes,

As others have suggested, it would be too awkward to shoot the wedding and resolve things afterwords. I could be

she doesn't have the money and has a friend who will shoot it. It's a mistake I know, but perhaps she wants to loose

you.

 

The reason for that may be she doesn't have the money now (also someone hinted). I'd let her know if she wants you

to shoot, but doesn't have the money now, perhaps something can be worked out, but also make it clear that you are

quite busy and won't be offended if she has found another photographer.

I shoot entertainment contracts for my livelihood. That's where my REAL money comes from. I could shoot four contracts a year and be just fine. I don't shoot weddings because they pay my bills. I do it because I love it, and in this particular area (having relocated from Manhattan in '06), I do it for about a THIRD of what I used to charge. That being said, its about someone trying to take advantage of me. I get to decide how much its worth to me to walk out my door and spend the day documenting someone else's life. That's MY decision, and I price myself accordingly. Anything less than that and it simply not how I want to spend my Saturday. I have three children who play sports, and a husband whom I rarely see in "the season". I have other things I could be doing and I set my prices in order for it to make it WORTH IT to be away from my family. PERIOD.

If she called me and said "I'm sorry, we have overextended ourselves and I am having trouble coming up with the rest of the balance." I would certainly attempt to come up with a solution that would benefit both of us. I could then offer to shoot the wedding and then begin working on the photographs once the balance has been paid, along with a signed agreement outlining the terms and an agreement to go through binding arbitration if a dispute should result.

 

Since all of this has happened, I have redone my contract to include a clause that states "Any promotional inclusion that accompanies this contract will not serve as cause for any future service exchange or credit towards the balance of this contract." It also states that "It is the sole responsibility of the client to schedule any package associated sessions at least 8 weeks in advance of the desired session date and at least 10 weeks prior to the desired delivery date for prints. In addition, the client assumes all responsibility for the preparation required for each session, to include, but not limited to, arranging for dress alterations, coordinating hair and make-up appointments, and making arrangements for the bridal session bouquet. The client shall hold the photographer harmless should these guidelines not be followed and scheduling and/or time frames become an issue. No refunds, credits, or refunds will be issued." Hopefully this will protect me up front and keep this from becoming an issue again.

 

I appreciate all of the feedback guys. 20 heads are certainly better than 1 and I have an appointment with an attorney on Monday and will put a call into PPA in the morning. Sometimes I get so caught up in the fact that PPA is constantly educating us, that I forget they are there to protect our interests as well.

My best to all...

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