Problems with Church Lighting and Reception

Hello all, I am new to wedding photography just this year, and have just finished my 3rd wedding. All of my clients

have been very very happy, but im not. I study other photograhpers photos, and their church and reception exposure

is wonderful, images crisp and clear. My main problem in the church is photographing the wedding party coming

down the isle, this is a fast paced thing, and im either getting slight blur or over and/or under exposure. Receptions

are another thing, when the lights go off and the dancing begins.

 

I am using just an Olympus e510, and I am finding, despite what oly claims that an iso of 400 in church is just way

too much noise. Any suggestions?<div></div>

Are you using flash coming down the aisle?

 

I looked at E510 on dpreview and it doesn't any better on noise, so going to a newer Oly body may not help:

 

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse510/page17.asp

 

This is one case where the best option is getting a better-performing camera system of another brand.

 

I'm happy with my D80 at ISO800. I find 800 is a good all-around speed, even outdoors, because Nikon has very

high-speed synch with Nikon flashes. Nikon processing looks more like grain than noise at 1600 and 3200.

 

I hope you don't have too much money tied up in your Oly stuff. It looks like the whole thing needs to become your

backup camera for now and later disappear entirely.

 

Switch to Nikon or Canon.

 

Perhaps others will start a flame war about which :-)

 

Canon seems to preserve more detail but Nikon seems cleaner to me. My DSLR is Nikon because I had a flock of

lenses for it from previous film systems.

A little confusing: "I looked at E510 on dpreview and it doesn't any better on noise, so going to a newer Oly body

may not help:" I lost track and thought you might be using E410.

 

Basically, the 510 does not perform as well as other cameras in it's price range.

 

If you plan to continue shooting weddings, and your sample picture shows talent, you need to bump up at least to

the next price point - $800-$1200 for a body only.

 

"Using the Right Lens for TTL":

 

http://www.shootsmarter.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=200&acat=16

 

"The Canon 24-70mm f2.8L lens, the Nikon 28-70mm f2.8 IF-ED and the Tamron 28-75mm f2.8 lenses all live up to

their claims in holding a constant aperture setting within a 1/10th stop margin and are great choices for TTL."

 

For a longer lens out to 200mm or so, you should really have image stabilization. I think the Nikon 55-200mm, which

is not very expensive, is fine for reaching out for the ceremony.

 

Add a flash by the camera manufacturer and you would be good to go.

I also believe a large part of the image quality issue here comes down to the lack of experience this user has in how to use the equipment on hand, no matter the brand....

 

http://www.photo.net/olympus-camera-forum/00Pp9u

 

http://www.photo.net/olympus-camera-forum/00QGyS

 

Switching to a Canon 1Ds Mark III and 4 L-series lenses will do you no good if you don't have some basic understanding of how focal length, aperture, ISO and shutter speeds contribute to how the final image will look.

 

Contrary to popular belief, Olympus DSLR's can actually do good jobs with weddings....in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing...

 

http://www.josephmark.com/index2a.php

If you want an idea of what he uses in shooting his weddings, see here..

 

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=28707400&q=joseph+mark&qf=m

 

If you want to shoot weddings, you need the right equipment, and that also includes the right lenses....not just the body. Kit lenses, I don't care which manufacturer you are talking about, are not the right equipment.

You have an upgrade path to the E3.

 

Look at dpreview.com. It seems competitive with the D300.

Rather than tell Kelly to get other gear, why not tell her why she is getting the results she is getting? Kelly, do some research on photographing processionals and low light receptions. Basically, if you are using an automated metering method, it isn't doing the balance of flash (I assume you are using flash) to ambient necessary to ensure non-motion blurred images. You can research 'dragging the shutter'. Also, teach yourself about metering and exposure or get a book, so you can use your camera in manual mode where you control things, not the camera. You should not be wondering whether an exposure is off--you should know why and should be able to get the exposure right.

See the two noted posts in my first response. No replies or additional questions were asked.

I have studied exposure, metering, lighting, extensively, i dont think it matters how much i study it, i think its all trial and error, practice, experience, BUT my oly IS NOT performing as it says it will with the ISO. When I try to bounce flash, I am getting actually a darker photo, possibility the ceiling is too high? I dont even bother to try and bounce flash if the ceiling is dark colored.

Oh, my wedding photography is at http://www.poeticphoto.photoreflect.com, if that helps. I think everyone has to start somewhere, ive done pretty well so far, just cant fine tune my "indoor lighting", no matter what i think i know, although I will say the quality has progressed with each wedding

Hey Greg, whats up? I saw your posts on the other forum, no i didnt run back to leave a response, i had 3 surgeries in less than a month,and my daughter had liberty before being sent to Afganistan. Sorry if you feel like im asking the same questions over and over, im not really, i am following as best as i can what ive read and studied, i just feel its trial and error, the more i do it, the more experienced ill get, every wedding photographer has to start somewhere...right? I am just trying to fine tune at the moment, k?

Yes im using flash, which is another issue, like i said i dont try to bounce if the ceiling is dark, is that appropriate? and do too high ceilings make the bounce action moot? Another thing I am noticing, is the flash (too quickly) loosing battery power and takes forever to charge back up, anyone suggest some real good batteries?

I would love to use the "drag the shutter" technique for receptions, I have tried it a few times. Do you think this is something that will work for me with time and experience? because i have tried it a few times during the receptions

I would love to use the "drag the shutter" technique for receptions, I have tried it a few times. Do you think this is

something that will work for me with time and experience? because i have tried it a few times during the receptions<div></div>

Regarding your flash issues, rather than bouncing the flash, especially then the ceilings are too high to do such, I would use one of two accessories...either an Omni-bounce or a Lumisphere II attachment, which both work great.

 

I also take multiple sets (3 or 4) of Powerex-brand AA rechargeables, rated at 2700mah, which keeps my FL50 flash recycling times down to 1-2 seconds no matter how much of the power is used the previous shot and with either of the above attachments fitted. Last wedding I came home with 500 images and only had to change the flash batteries once and never was waiting for a recharge.

"BUT my oly IS NOT performing as it says it will with the ISO. When I try to bounce flash, I am getting actually a darker photo, possibility the ceiling is too high? I dont even bother to try and bounce flash if the ceiling is dark colored...."

 

The flash is probably performing just like it's supposed to. The problem is, when you bounce the flash, you've got to count the distance the light travels to the ceiling, then back down to your subject, as that is how far it is actually travelling. That distance is going to be MUCH further than the direct line from you to the subject, especially if the ceiling is very high at all. If your images are coming out dark when you bounce flash, then the distance is too far for your settings and you need to start using the bounce attachments on the flash, as well as upping the ISO setting, or opening up the lens aperture....or both.

ISO's of 400 at least and preferable 800 conserve battery power.

Okay thank you, that makes sense. I have a lumiquest midibouncer that my camera store guy told me would be useful, but I have not found it useful for anything that is not closer up. Can you give me the stats on the flash unit you use? Maybe mine is just not up to par.

 

Thank you Thank you Thank you for the battery info, whew, that will be a huge help.

It has a guide number of 164feet/50 meters with an autozoom mechanism that automatically adjusts between 24-85mm, with a diffussor that allows it to cover as wide as the 8mm setting with my 7-14 Zuiko zoom, so it's quite a versatile unit. With the flash modifyer on, I keep the flash head pointed up so the zoom action is a non-feature since it stays pegged on one setting when the head is pointed in any direction other than straight ahead.

 

While the FL50 is pretty powerful, when I use it with the Lumisphere II at an event like a wedding, I'm pretty much set on ISO 800 with my E510 like Steve said all the time as these flash modifyers really eat up the power, but the 4 rechargeables just keep the current coming to where there's never a moment I have to wait for the flash to recharge. I'm also using apertures of f4 or f5.6 to keep from stressing the flash too much. Once you hit f8 with a difussor fitted, the working distances start getting way to short unless you're shooting something like rings/flower arrangements/other closeups.

For weddings you really need a powerful (lots of light i.e. high guide number) flash which can be used with an external power pack. I am not too familiar with Olympus E flash system, so I don't know if your flash is compatible with any power packs. Canon makes a powerpack which holds 8 AA batteries and allows me to recharge my flash in 1-2 seconds after a full power flash and less than 1 second with typical flashes. Since you don't shoot canon thats not much use to you, but you may want to look into the Quantum Turbo series of battery packs. They have a built in battery and provide hundreds of flashes with full power recycle times of about 2 sec. If you can't afford the quantum (or if your flash won't work with it) you should just cary as many rechargable NiMh batteries and switch them out often since the flash recharging time goes up as the batteries drain.

 

I'd second the opinion that you should switch to a Canon or Nikon system, because they offer a much larger selection of accessories and lenses which you will need as you grow in your photographic career. Besides that, the Olympus cameras are tiny, and many people at the wedding may not take you seriously as a pro when your camera is about the same size as "uncle bob's" point and shoot. Olympus cameras do look nice, and are supposedly great cameras, so you might want to just keep it for shooting other things or as a backup. I only bring my older cameras out when I am shooting nature for instance, because I don't want my wedding cameras to end up full of sand leaving me with only one backup camera for the wedding... Speaking of which, it doesn't sound like you have a backup camera. This is definitely a necessity when shooting weddings! There is a reason why real pro wedding photogs aint cheap, and it is because we have many thousands of dollars worth of equipment which we need to pay for in addition to our time and expertise. Don't get me wrong, your work shows promise, but if you are seriously considering doing weddings you need to take the plunge and invest a good deal of money. Lots of people think that they can take pro quality photos with just any DSLR and the kit lens, and that is not the case. Outdoors will be OK, but indoors will not. BTW you will need a good flash bracket which will keep the light above the camera when you do vertical shots otherwise you will end up with weird looking shadows. I also would recommend the Lumiquest SoftBox attachments which go over your flash. They diffuse the light nicely without too much light loss. Good Luck!

So is your diffuser.

 

The ONLY time during a wedding that I point the flash directly ahead is during the procession. To start with. Make sure you're flash is powerful, has an external battery pack (VERY important) and a big duffuser (VERY VERY VERY important).

 

Opening up the aperture to get more of the background is problematic. Don't even think about it until you have a camera that can shoot cleanly at ISO800 or higher (like my FUJI or the new Nikons).

 

An advanced techique that can help keep you steady is quickly get down on one knee when you shoot. That's how I work. If it isn't hot in the church I wear kneepads.

 

If you can find an assistant, you can put a second flash in the back sweeping across the back of the church. A lot of the nice procession pictures you've seen here were shot that way.

 

But when you're starting out, be conservative. Better a black background than a fuzzy bride.

Kelly--first of all, dragging the shutter does not mean getting motion blurred images. It is actually a technique that has several meanings and different applications. Most useful for wedding photography is freezing the subject (NO blurring) with flash while retaining some of the ambient light in the image so you don't have black backgrounds. The sample you show is motion blurred, which can be a deliberate use of shutter dragging, but not the only use. Here is a previous post where I outlined exactly how to figure it.

 

http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00PFGA

 

Second, if you are getting underexposed images no matter what you do re the flash in high ceiling-ed places, there is a reason for this, and it makes sense to figure out why. If you keep putting the flash power up higher and higher with no resulting improvement, the most logical answer is that the flash can't cover the distance needed--as someone above explained--the distance to the ceiling and back down. In addition, you will be maxing out the flash re recycling, and you will need an external battery to keep up with any action. Also, underexposure emphasizes noise. If you don't underexpose, you will have much less 'apparent' noise. You CAN bounce in places painted with darker colors, but it takes more flash power, and you should be smart about how you do it. Some places have a dark ceiling but light walls, and you can use wall bounce. It is only in places where everything is dark where it will be questionable whether you can get any kind of usable bounce. If you haven't already, read (or re-read) the planetneil article.

 

Third--while it is good to experiment, you can easily be trapped into thinking that one way works for everything, if you don't also know the theory behind things. This is especially true for bouncing flash and dragging the shutter, because one setting and one way of doing things will not work for every situation. You have to know the theory to be able to adapt the technique.

Thanks everyone, makes sense. I do have an assistant, she uses my back up cam which is also an oly. I REALLY

like the idea given about having the assistant sweep some light across the back of the church , thank you. I do

actually have a bracket for flash that I use.

 

Unfortunately, I am stuck with my oly for a little while, but from what ive read on this post, i do need to upgrade my

flash unit, right now i use it with a stoffen, and my lumiquest, your all right, i just need more flash power, big time.

 

I am still nervous about ISO settings.

 

NADINE, yes i tried the drag shutter thing on this pic, but i also had an idea for draggin, i wanted to photograph the

dancing at the reception, with the newlyweds in the middle of the huddle, and just "freeze" them, i tried this using

2cd curtain flash, didnt get very good results.

 

I usually visit the location of the ceremony a week before, at the same time the ceremony would begin and take test

photos of everything, i have my assistant wear white and have her walk down the isle and stand up on the alter, this

helps a little, but as someone said, one thing doesnt work all the time.

 

CAN ANYONE SUGGEST a camera that is an upgrade compared to my oly, but not thousands of dollars? Im a

single mom on a budget here, lol

Jamie, you know, i asked my camera guy at the store for a mini soft box for my flash (to reduce shadows), he talked me out of it saying the mini-bouncer is what i needed, i reluctantly agreed to buy what he suggested, but thank you for confirming what i already knew, i really needed the soft box!! lol

Second curtain sync by itself won't freeze subjects or contribute to shutter drag. To do what you describe, you would need to tell the couple to be still and use a long enough shutter speed to get motion blur on the other couples moving around them. Shutter drag by itself or second curtain sync by itself would not necessarily be the solution. That is what I mean by understanding the theory. Again, your previous sample is a good example of shutter drag to get motion blur. Shutter drag can also be used to freeze subjects while not letting the background go black. The latter can be applied to the processional, a problem area you mentioned. I personally would not use an assistant dressed in white for the processionals as a bounce surface. The surface is too small, you'd be forced to use high ISO (noise) and wide apertures, meaning your focusing must be spot on, which is iffy with most non-top-of-the-line cameras in dim light, and recycling is an issue. Processional shots usually aren't shot for the art effect, hence IMHO, the subjects should be sharp. I use a medium/fast ISO for processionals, and plenty of flash. Usually, I use by white card/Demb Diffuser like a mini softbox for these. It is my belief that the client (my clients, at least) appreciate a well lit, sharp shot. If the light isn't quite so lush and soft as could be achieved otherwise in a controlled situation, then so be it.