Payment problems, a bit long

I finished my first real wedding about a month ago. I also did the engagement and bridal photos for the couple

(acquaintance), and they were extremely pleased with them. I did all the work for expenses only, to help them

(and to a lesser extent, myself) out. I have now learned the terrible crime of not getting any money up front.

 

Neither of the couple were willing to sit down and talk about what it was they wanted in terms of shots for the

wedding. The day of the wedding I showed up hours early to get work done, and not only would they not cooperate

but I was told at one point that photos were the last thing on their minds. I took what I knew them to want and

left. A few days later they contacted me and told me they were not happy that I had apparently run out on them

(despite the fact the wedding had been over for 2 hours when I left). They then said they would not pay my

expenses for the wedding (in this case, basically gas, a few prints, and a canvas). I explained my position, and

that is when the real problems started.

 

The bride blew up on me and has more or less harassed me since. My stance the whole time has been pay what little

you owe me and I will give you the photos (I should add, they already have all the engagement and bridal photos,

none of which they have paid for). Last night, she threatened to sue me and demanded I give over the photos.

Since then I have offered again to give them to her in exchange for the small amount she owes me. This brought on

an onslaught of her insulting me and questioning my manhood, followed by a clear no. Her husband then emailed me

saying that they would pay me everything except for one night of the hotel (I was there two), which was the

rehearsal dinner I was going to do a few random shots for, but my girlfriend became ill and we left early. I

agreed, and now they are arguing about the price of the gas, which they have the receipts for.

 

I am at my wits end and am ready to tell them they simply will never see their photos, but I fear she may

actually attempt to take me to court. Is there anything she could actually do, or can I consider this all bluff

and truly to tell her no?

 

Thanks.

Steven -

 

You don't mention if you have a contract or not... Always use a contract. Period. No Contract, No show up for photos.

 

My guess is that you don't have one, which will quickly turn into a he said / she said in court (if it gets that far). There I'd say your chances are 50/50 at best, since the couple didn't hire someone to do the photography because they were relying on you to do that.

 

You arrived "hours early" - How early? (not that it really matters) - 2 - 3 hours early is considered the norm for casual getting ready shots plus formals (if done before the wedding) and it's not unusual for nothing to happen for an hour or two after the wedding - depending on the reception plans. I've had only one couple that went immediately from ceremony to reception mode (and that was because it all was in the same room...long story) Most couples will take an hour or two to decompress and drive around (have a drink or three) between the ceremony and reception. Some want formals done in this time, since they don't want to see each other (yes that still happens) before the ceremony.

 

Point is - as the photographer - you're not done when you think you are... you're done when the contract says you are or the bride and groom say - okay. Again all of this is spelled out in the contract and through conversations with the bride and groom or if one of them doesn't want to play, I talk to the other. Usually one of them will play nice... If it starts out that they don't want to worry about photos, I start suggesting things to them... That will either get agreement or a reaction. Either way I win.

 

Long answer...bottom line at this point, assuming no contract - you can fight on and lose them as friends and also possibly get bad word of mouth advertising. Or agree to their terms that the groom has proposed and chalk this one up to the school of hard knocks. (Personally, I'd go for the latter...It might be an expense lesson, but it's a good one!)

 

Dave

Was there a contract? Was any money exchanged? She may not have a case if you were not compensated for your services. You can go one of two ways. You can keep the wedding images until you are properly paid and risk her badmouthing you or you can give her the photos and move on (and chalk it up to a learning experience).

<i>There I'd say your chances are 50/50 at best, since the couple didn't hire someone to do the photography

because they were relying on you to do that.</i><P>

He didn't skip the wedding. He took the photos. He's just refusing to turn over the photos from the wedding

until he has been paid for the expenses incurred from the photos he's already given them and the expenses from

shooting the wedding. It's extremely unlikely that any judge is going to rule that he has to turn over all the

photos for absolutely no payment just because the bride has decided she doesn't want to pay. Even without a

written contract, the couple will probably have a hard time convincing the judge that the deal was "he's going to

shoot our engagement and wedding photos and give us a number of prints, and in return, we're going to give him

nothing

but verbal abuse."

I can't imagine a judge ordering you to provide images for free. I would think it's obvious that there has to be an exchange of payment - however meager it is - for services and that unless specified, neither party is obligated to come up with its share unless the other does too. I'd hold those pictures tight. But, especially since there's no written contract (many verbal contracts under a certain amount of money are valid) the best thing to do is check with a lawyer.

As far as bad publicity, yes, there'll be some of that, but you sometimes have to do what's right.

I would set a date two weeks from now and tell them that if payment is not received by then, all images will be

deleted (don't actually delete them though).

<BR><BR>

If they pay up before then, give them the images. If they contact you after the date, it's your decision to either tell

them they are too late or negotiate further depending on how you feel.

It sounds like you have put yourself in a bad situation by not having a contract that spells out the terms of your agreement (start and end times for coverage, costs that the B&G will pay, etc...) and not communicating well with the bride and groom during the event. From your recounting of the story, it sounds like you left the wedding without speaking to the B&G first... I would suggest that if you have taken all of the photos you are contracted to take and you are ready to leave you always check with the B&G and make sure they are happy before you pack up. Also, leaving the rehearsal dinner because your girlfriend is sick sounds like you were treating the event more as a friend who does photography than as a pro.

 

Assuming no contract I would negotiate an agreement with the groom (since he sounds willing) and call the loss tuition. Forget the one night at the hotel, cut the fuel costs to something you can all agree to meet and give them the photos in exchange for the check. You have stressed that it is a very small amount you are looking for so even if you split it 50:50 I would assume your loss would be very reasonable.

Post negotiations (I've a few), it would be unwise, in my opinion, to take a personal check. I prefder, at that point, to have cash, money order or bank check. The client can put a stop order on a personal check.

Sure she could sue you but that costs money --whcih they don't seem to have.

 

My advice?

 

Don't negotiate, and don't delete anything. Be a man, suck it up and eat the expenses (considerate it a cheap education) and just give them everything you have , all of the originals and generously wish them a happy life. Given the level of BS and abuse and mixed messages you've gotten so far fro m the couple all communications fro mthis moment forward from you should be in writing (you've already learned the folly of verbal communications in business deals, haven't you?). Clearly they already have deep seated communications problems.

 

As a professional, it doesn't matter that your girlfriend got sick orthat they told you that "pictures were the lastthing on their mind, or that yo uwere only doing it for "expenses" or any of the other excuses you've given for doing less than a professional job.

 

Finally, don't even think about using the photos of their wedding to market yourself with either; that would just be begging for more trouble.

Personally, I feel that they have received more than enough for free. No money, no additional photos. I don't reward people that act that way by giving them what they want. I may attempt to come to an agreement that benefits both parties (say, discount what they owe you by a certain amount to let them feel they are getting something if you feel you don't have a case or don't want to mess with it) but rolling over and giving in to threats and demands isn't really professional either. Business owners don't just walk around giving out things for free to everyone who complains and stay in business.

 

As mentioned, cash or money order only, and I'd have them sign something at the time of payment indicating that the agreement has been fulfilled and no further services are promised or expected on either party's behalf, and that agreement supersedes any prior verbal or written agreements.

I agree with Gary that business owners don't just walk around giving out things but I don't think you conducted yourself as a business owner in any other aspect of this (unless a contract exists and then that would govern). Sounds like you handled this as a friend and friends do give things away to satisfy disappointments and help all parties move on.

 

I appreciate the comments concerning cash and money orders, while I think it is something of an insult to require those payment terms in this situation maybe it is justified.

 

The lessons to learn are always use a contract (especially with friends/acquaintances) and require payment up front (calculate expenses ahead of time, charge that and then go with your budget).

Exchange the photos for CASH only.

 

Russ

"Exchange the photos for CASH only."

 

And make sure the cash isn't counterfeit.

Judges and courts can be very ....well .... judgemental and unpredictable. If a contract were in place that stated terms of service and payment...(eg. Photographer agrees to provide 5 hours of coverage from 11:30 am to 4:30 pm) and the photographer did or didn't meet the terms of the contract it would be cut and dried.

 

The challenge here is that there is no contract and may be conflicting understanding of what was to be provided. If the bride and groom can convince a judge that expected services were not provided that's all they need to do. And it doesn't cost that much to file in small claims court.

 

Absolutely do not delete or destroy any of the images from the wedding...even those that would normally go to the "bin"! Worst thing, if you can't settle this peacefully, would be to get to court and have a judge tell you to turn over all images, then you say you don't have them.

 

Best advice - Try to settle it peacefully.... otherwise call a lawyer.

 

Dave

There was no contract. I did try to approach the B&G actually, several times. I showed up about 3 hours early and they sat me down to do nothing.

 

The thing with the rehearsal dinner wasn't supposed to be so much a photo event, they just offered to book the night so I wouldn't have such a long drive the day of the event. As it was they decided right before they wanted some snapshots.

 

Maybe I did not, but I feel like I tried to conduct myself as a professional. I attempted to make meetings months in advance to talk to them, even up until the day of. Since then if they've had a question, I answered as honestly as possible. I've made some attempt to negotiate and it just seems she wants them for free.

 

I'm more or less at the point where I feel like maybe I should just stick the originals on a disk and send them over, even as frustrating as it is knowing they have two full sets that I worked very hard on already. They're also demanding written releases for printing (I put out my work on CDs/DVDs with releases usually, because I can't print myself yet) which makes it even harder for me to just let it go and give it to them.

I wanted to add that no money has been exchanged, either. She owes me money for the photos she already has, and she is disputing that amount as well.

I'm so sorry that you're in this position! :( I think you just have to decide what's most important in this particular

situation: A) to get rid of this "client", or B) to make your point.

 

If you just want to get rid of them, send them their photos, signature required upon delivery, with a note that you have

waived the fees owed, and no one owes anyone anything any longer.

 

If you want to make a point (and your money), then don't deliver anything until they've paid. In that case, I would

suggest that you ALSO send a sign-on-delivery letter detailing what you're owed as per your verbal agreement, and that

they cannot have the photos until they pay.

 

They may just be the type of people to want to pursue this all the way to court, which would be a huge stress on you.

It's likely not worth it for just the cost of your travel.

 

On the flip-side, this is absurd. If you have ANY sort of proof (e-mails?) that you had an agreement of photos for travel

costs, then this would be the time to pull out those documents and put your foot down.

 

I think I would also cease all verbal communication with them, and be prepared to record any harassing voicemails they leave you. Your

verbal "agreement" is what has gotten you into this mess; only by putting all future communication in writing can you ever hope to get out

of it.

 

Only you can decide how far you are prepared to go with this.

Steven,

 

Contract, contract, contract! That said, the second thing I would have to say is, NEVER shoot for family or friends and expect to get paid! The old adage, never mix friends and money, will always stand. How much are you out? Is it worth losing a friend over? Look at it this way, you got LOTS of experience and hopefully some great photos for your portfolio. Getting your first wedding is the hardest one. The next one, make sure you have a SOLID contract, and make sure you get compensated in full BEFORE the wedding happens. Preferably 30 days or more.

 

I have this saying on the wall over my computer every day to remind me that..."Pains in the ass happen when you bend over, remove your underwear, and put a welcome mat under your feet."

 

Good luck,

 

~Hilarye~

One more thing, from how these guys have treated you, you need to do one of two things if you do work out a deal.

 

1. Only accept cash, or a money order.

 

2. Have them make a check out to you, and then take it to their bank cash it immediately.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they agreed to pay you, handed you a check in exchange for your pictures, and then

stop payment on the check.

 

I'm all about CYA, if you couldn't tell!

 

~Hilarye~

Time to draw a line in the sand; think about what you think is fair to you, and ask for that, once.

They either pay what you ask or they do not, the negotiations are over. They want to sue, have at it.

Move on.

Thanks everyone for the advice. This has been an enormous stress hanging over my head for the past month. I have other work coming up and I'm ready to get focused on that, and things will definitely be done differently on my end (especially where a contract is concerned), but all in all the people I'm working with now have already been loads better than then previous from the get-go.

 

As bad as yesterday was I realized I do not want to repeat it again. It occurred to me when I woke up this morning I could fight them hard for 40$ on gas, or I could tell them to just pay what they feel they owe, and give the unedited files as they want and save myself several hours of work. I plan to make their release as specific as I can to wash my hands completely of the situation where they cannot bother me anymore. I have voice and emails saved of them harassing me endlessly, but in the end if it goes to court it's just going to be stress that I do not need, and no matter what happens I'm not going to be making any profit. Seeing as how I have other people who are already impressed with my work and are ready to sign contracts and pay retainers where I CAN make a profit, it seems better for my pocketbook and health to focus on that instead!

Good thinking Steven. The sooner you move on the sooner you can turn your energy to building your business. I

have no doubt you will do very well. Good luck to you!

We can all speculate here and give our opinions. But last time I checked, very few of us had J.D. at the end of our signature block.

 

Get a lawyer--there's a chance even if you give them everything they are saying they want they'll think they can get more and will sue you anyway. It will be a few dollars, but it will do a couple of things. First, it'll give you a primer on the rights in your state. And second, it will keep this affair from costing you even more. Don't do a darn thing without a lawyer. Period.

Write down the changes you'll make in how you'd do this again if you could do it all over again.

 

Institute those changes in your contract and anywhere else you need to record the necessary changes to avoid this

in the future. This is the most important part of healing this process for you.

 

Do the above then send them all things they want and wish them well as they move forward into their married life

together. Heck, make a couple of prints for them too and Move On.

I think the best thing that can happen here would be if this did take you to court. Then she'd have to pay you. A contract, even if signed, is null and void without consideration. Consideration is payment. So, when the judge here's you didn't give up the photos because you weren't paid, you are free and clear. No contract. He'll likely order her to pay, and you to give the photos. Now I hope you have copies of the receipts.

 

But all said she's probably just bluffing. Deal with the husband, he sounds more reasonable.