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Calm down maybe? Regarding complaints about moderators.


tmcleland

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Speaking as someone who is currently suspended from 2 forums for too much passion on a subject I think it should be noted that most moderators will always let you know what is going on.

 

Josh nearly always emails you or responds to your reply in some way, as he said he may not agree but he does at least listen. Some of us do push our luck and we pay the price, it goes with the territory when you are trying to find your way on this site, there are a lot of different types of personalities here and we will not all agree.

Calm is needed as you have said, it just comes a bit late when you have your buttons pushed on occasion!

As always though time heals all.

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I had one recent thread deleted (I think) because I was talking about an interesting item that popped up on eBay. I'm guessing that some moderator didn't like that. I say I'm guessing because I didn't get an email to that effect and have no way of knowing.

 

Extremes are usually bad. A forum totally out of control is no fun to use. The people who run this forum have the right and responsibility to keep it on track. I understand that. But at the same time, a forum that is too rigidly controlled ceases to be fun (and useful). And you want photo.net to be useful right?

 

I'd like to recommend just a touch less heavy handedness, if that is possible.

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very interesting

I see that actions of a moderator and possibly TOO much moderation can strike sparks.

 

I do agree that moderators are needed and I approve of most of their actions.

I was on two forums where a person was a problem- they finally went away.

or another forum that was entirely open, YOU could post as Richard Milhous and get away with it.

that forum was closed permananetly.A disturbed person posted as two opposites and tried to start a war.

 

ACE CAM forum was shut down a few years ago because of spam.

 

the Black & White forum on Yahoo quickly changed and had nothing to do with

B&W photography. Their darkroom forum was taken over by poachers.

-- I left never been back. ( hint: B&W had an interracial theme)

 

SO i can see a real need for moderators,

My only complaint is does the moderator really understand what is posted and the meaning behind it?

or is the moderator so overworked that he has to act like a pre-programmed BOT?

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First some quick responses...

<br><br>

Lex: Couldn't agree more about the "censorship." I say, ask a woman in a burqa how she feels about censorship!

<br><br>

Mr. Edwards: So glad you agree. I think that bickering and off-topic posts will damage the point of the whole site.

<br><br>

Jeramy: Yah, Becky is pretty nasty. I also heard she smells and her parents are poor!

<br><br>

<i>BTW, if anyone reading this is <b>actually</b> named Becky Jackson, I really did just make that up! iTunes Shuffle played

"Baby Got Back," hence the Becky. </i>

<br><br>

Tim: If nothing else this little "family therapy" session of mine got your question answered. I can almost hear the 80's sit-com

"touching moment" music. ;-)

<br><br>

Bernie: That would be a cool trick....

<br><br>

<i>Of course I'm kidding about the beers........yeah...kidding, that's the ticket.</i>

<br><br>

I'm on to you, Josh! Those "film canisters" next to our names are actually liquor jugs, aren't they? Not that anyone could blame

you.

<br><br>

At any rate, thank you everyone for the responses. It's good to know I'm not the only one who felt this way. I know I should be

spending this time in the forums learning about lighting or something...well actually I should be working, but Flash wears a little

thin sometimes.

<br><br>

Hopefully a few others will read this post and realize that when moderators are doing their jobs, they are doing it for the good of

everyone on the site, or at least what they perceive to be the best. It's not like they're sitting behind a wall of screens going, all

drunk with power going "delete, delete, nope, not you, bug off, go 'way, bye, click, gone, cya!"

<br><br>

Thanks for the sanity!

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"SO i can see a real need for moderators, My only complaint is does the moderator really understand what is posted

and the meaning behind it? or is the moderator so overworked that he has to act like a pre-programmed BOT?"

 

In general we appoint moderators who have a good knowledge of the subjects being discussed. So we have

experienced Nikon users moderating in the Nikon forum, Experienced Street Photographers moderating in the Street

Photography forum and so on. All speak, write and understand English! If you post in Portugese, then we may have a

problem.

 

In addition, moderators cooperate and often discuss moderation actions with other moderators and site admins

before taking action. Users cannot possibly know how much work goes on behind the scenes. They only react when

they think they see some moderation action that they don't understand (and therefore assume must be an arbitrary

and incorrect decision). Moderators simply do not have the time (nor do they have the responsibility) to discuss the

reasons for their actions. They're too busy and such discussions are often highly unproductive (not to mention

abusive on the part of "wronged" users). Nevertheless, some moderators will go to great lengths to try to make users

understand their actions, even when it appears to be an impossible task!

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"It's a fine line, and there are always some people who are going to find the PN policies unacceptable. But that is the glory of the internet, if you really can't stand this site you can go find another that suits you better. And if there isn't another site out there that does what you want, you can create your own site with rules that you decide are best. THAT is what free speech and lack of censorship is all about. "

 

Josh, that's like shooting your mouth off to a customer....all it does is hurt the business, it certainly does not encourage me to contribute financially. I have been deleted twice recently, more then I wanted, and it was on topic, not insulting, but what I thought was good conversation, or making a point that the moderator perhaps found boring. But okay, it's your site, but it also costs me in time/energy to contribute, and this extra level of censorship I have never experienced before (or at another site) is equivalent to telling me to shut-up (it's insulting, provoking, and apparently others are also getting angry about this)...... to me it represents more importantly a loss of freedom of speech, and also a lack of appreciation for the work done. The above comment I feel is very arrogant and implies photonet is doing us all a big favor! Well, wake up, without our contributions you would be nothing, gone! I would suggest you delete your own comment for a change, and show some respect! I can take it or leave it, so can many others. Like shopping, if I don't like one store, I go to another, and I still get my goods.Your comment is rediculous and unprofessional! As for the topic of deletions, remember, we also have a power button that we can use when administrators/moderators get out of line called "see yu".

 

"Meanwhile, we'll just keep moving along as we have always done" . Yup, right, your advertisers I assume pay by customer base size perhaps? Remember, we make free contributions in here, we're not writing for a magazine or newspaper......expect gentleman behaviour, but not perfect spelling, co-ordination, concise writing, etc. You get rough copy, and you can't expect anything more.

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Wow, Van. Take a deep breath. I don't find anything about Josh's comment - which you quote - to be insulting or

arrogant. He's telling the truth. There are thousands of destinations on the web, and infinite opportunities to create

your own. Yes, you could take your traffic and your contributions elsewhere, but you can't really make your store

comparision valid (as it relates to getting these same "goods" elsewhere). There IS no other place like this on the

web. And the moderation - even when it errs on the side of too disciplined or is based on years of experience that

may not be obvious to some newer members (like me) - is the main thing that makes this site valuable.

<br><br>

We sure don't come here for the unparalleled technical underpinnings of the site - despite the vast recent

improvements, it's still kind of quaint. We don't come here for giant laundry lists of hardware or huge matrices of lens

comparison shots. We don't come here for juried images, or for commerce in such. No, this place is about the give

and take of conversation - and it only takes a few bad apples to utterly, completely wreck it for everyone. Moderation -

swift, and with teeth - is the only thing that keeps the larger tone and atmosphere of this site as high-brow and

useful as it is.

<br><br>

Anyone joining the site (even if, like you, they don't pay the equivalent of one Iced Grande Skim Latte every three

months to support it) can tell right away, just by surfing around, how the place works and what the editorial

sensibilities are. Complaints about the existence and nature of the moderation strike me as similar to buying a

house next to an airport and then suing the airport for being noisy. Except in this case, you've purchased nothing,

and have complete flexibility to walk away from a privately run web site that has purposefully and painstakingly

evolved its moderation policies since before large message boards were even known to the wider public.

<br><br>

<i>implies photonet is doing us all a big favor</i>

<br><br>

Well, they are. More specifically, the paying customers are.

<br><br>

<i>loss of freedom of speech</i>

<br><br>

Please don't confuse your freedom of speech with the rules of conduct in a private setting that you are under no

obligation to join or even read. Your freedom of speech could be demonstrated by the ease with which you could run

your own web site. No one is stopping you - you have <i>total</i> freedom in that regard. The freedom you see on

display here is also a first amendment issue: the freedom of assembly. Meaning, people are free to gather into

groups and choose the manner in which they will conduct themselves in that group. That's the whole <i>point</i> of

that freedom. Someone who thinks they can tell Josh how to run the infrastructure and rules of this private group

would be seeking to reduce the rights of <i>others</i>. It is indeed one thing to say you don't <i>like</i> the editorial

rules, and walk away. It's another entirely to confuse freedom of speech with freedom of assembly.

<br><Br>

I challenge you, Van, to find another destination on the web that even approaches the overall tone of civility, richness

of information and personal experience in thousands of people, and the attention to detail by mostly un-paid

moderators who have to really wade through the swamp here, sometimes. This site is wholly unique, just like you.

As you say, you can walk away. But take note of the number of people who've been here for many years running.

There's a reason.

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The job of site administration is to ensure a well functioning site. A secondary job is to attract new users and keep

existing users who are unhappy. If for the good of the site we have policies in place which some users find

unacceptable, then so be it. We don't pander to users simply in order for them to subscribe. We try to make the site

into one which most people think is worth subscribing to. You simply can't please all of the people all of the time and

it would be a huge waste of effort to spend a lot of time trying to.

 

We try to "tell it like it is", without running all comments through some sort of "customer service/marketing approval"

filter. It's very true that a few users here would probably be happier on other websites. We don't want anyone to leave,

but if they are unhappy here and don't like the policies that photo.net has chosen to adopt, it's a free market and

they're wecome to try out other websites in search of something better. We'd like to think they won't find one, but

perhaps they will and everyone will then be happy. There are certainly forums out there which are subject to less

editorial control, USENET newsgroups for example. However few would rate them as being "better" than the

photo.net forums, and there's a good reason for that.

 

There are also many websites (probably most) which don't have a public forum like this one where the site

administration and membership can exchange ideas in a public dialog. I presume they think that if you don't say

anything you can't offend anyone. There's a school of thought that says keeping quiet is a lot less effort than

providing feedback. If you appreciate that approach, there are a lot of sites to pick from who have that policy.

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First off, Van, thank you so much for proving <b>exactly</b> what I was saying. I was, in all honesty, trying to get a civil dialogue

going about how maybe we could all be a little nicer to each other, and how maybe <small><small>(just maybe)</small></small>, chill

out when the moderators do what they think is best to make sure that the site is a constructive place for the people who

<big><b>PAY</b></big> to support it (oh no he di-int)! Glad I was able to get a live demo of what I'm talking about right here in my

own post!

<br><br>

I will agree with Van on one point. Josh's marks could be construed as shooting one's mouth off to a customer. Know what?

Sometimes, it's wholly justified. Heck, I've done it. If there is a "customer" who is doing something to damage the quality of service

that I can provide (in my case, eating up time and not paying for it, while other projects go ignored), then you're **** right! Get outta

here. I don't work for free!

<br><br>

The reason I DID subscribe to the site is because, when I wanted to learn all about Medium Format, Google kept guiding me here, and

eventually, I just came straight to pNet. Further, whenever I had a question about something, and wanted something beyond tech-

specs and formulaic reviews, guess where I landed? I finally signed up when I saw a question that I could answer, and thought after all

that, it was well worth $25. Matt is right, there IS no other place like this. One thing you'll always get here is the real-world scoop on

just about anything photographic, from people who actually have this stuff and use it. Tech specs are fine, but I wanna know what

people who actually own this stuff think.

<br><br>

This leads me to believe that if you think the moderators are being more heavy-handed than they used to be, then look at your own

actions. Where could you have phrased the same basic statement in a way that wasn't inflammatory or insulting? From what I've seen,

it's rarely anything to do with the topics, but the way people talk to each other! There is a world of difference between "I went from

medium format film to digital and have never looked back" and "anyone who is still shooting film is an idiot!"

<br><br>

On a side note, I'm currently developing a site similar in nature to this (different subject matter entirely). The backers and myself were

tossing around the ideas of having both free and paid subscriptions, but I'm beginning to think I should axe the free version of the site

altogether.

<br><br>

Finally, explain this to me. How is it you can complain of YOUR freedom of speech is being violated, when you get all twisted about

someone exercising THEIRS by editing the content of the site they run? Think about it.

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"First off, Van, thank you so much for proving exactly what I was saying. I was, in all honesty, trying to get a civil dialogue going about how maybe we could all be a little nicer to each other, and how maybe (just maybe), chill out when the moderators do what they think is best to make sure that the site is a constructive place for the people who PAY to support it (oh no he di-int)! Glad I was able to get a live demo of what I'm talking about right here in my own post!"

 

TM, I am not even talking about topics deleted for being UNCIVIL, but rather topics deleted which were following all the rules (not off topic, not insulting, etc). I am talking about people who volunteer their free time, and yet receive no credit or respect in return, and instead got deleted because the moderator/administrator is unhappy with the opinion given (not good enough apparentlyナshees, what do you expect for free?) . With this attitude, I think you can expect some unhappy individuals in here, because it shows lack of appreciation. If you think we will continue to write, and keep getting deleted under these conditions, then realize were not that stupid, and will leave. In other words, "yu wanna get picky, yu might get nothin".

 

 

Two quick examplesナナ.ナナ Case -1ナナ a person had a difficult time writing in English, wrote a lengthy opinion, it was understandable, no one complained, no insults, and on topicナyet the moderator deleted it. This shows disrespect, time is money for everyone, this person could have just as easily been watching TV, printing, spent more time with his family. Who wants to stick around at a party when they are not welcome (this person left)! Case-2 ナナ I was in a thread where the person had a problem downloading his images from his dslr to his computer. My comment was "which is why I prefer film". The moderator wrote backナ.."I'm deleting your thread from the Digital Cameras, Including Point & Shoot and Shopping forum. This is not a useful post. Someone has a problem and needs help - if you can't provide help, please refrain from posting. " Come on, I was making a point, was this hard to understand, off topic, insulting? Perhaps it was just too short, but it was not nearly as bad as the next example. A pro woman photographer shooting weddings wanted advice on what to wear. Some guy answered "wear your camera". This is definitely wrong, sexist, and much moreナ.. yet was never deleted! Was this a useful post?

 

As for your comment about my not monetarily supporting this site, that is my decision, not yours. Don't get the idea the membership fee is unaffordable, just I would rather spend it on film. If you are benefitting, then contribute, but I don't get much value back and spend time answering rather then asking questions. If the moderator feels there was no contribution, or helpful advice in the past, then delete my name, and erase all my hundreds of hours of comments/opinions that have been written if they are so useless. Who is benefitting here for free? Wow! Notice the advertising, someone is cashing in on our time and efforts, and if they can't survive, who cares! They certainly do not care about us and the time we waste in here for their benefit, and they certainly do not care about my business! With the nice comment by Lex below, I've decided minimal contribution is best. Lex, that means hit the remove button.

 

"Freedom of Speech = Anything I say.

Censorship = Anything you say about anything I say."

 

I don't thinks so Lex (or should I say boss)! Straight you your face I could tell you where to go, and I'm sure some other people did not appreciate it either. I have to ask, where you drinking when you wrote that, thinking it was funny? Where is your judgement, or do you just not see you are irritating others on with that comment.You got a limit too , which is set by us! See yu!

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Another person who thinks I'm not funny? See, that's why I wear the rotten-fruit-proof suit online.

 

Van, you have one good point: As with many websites, photo.net is heavily content driven by user input. The owners, administrators and programmers help create a community space. We moderators do little more than clean up the beer cans and cigarette butts after the daily fracas. Occasionally we also are forced to act as bouncer and chaperone but those wouldn't be our first choices.

 

While we are heavily indebted to participants for creating most of the content and contributing to the dynamic that makes photo.net vital, we also have an obligation to the majority to maintain a certain level of quality. It's more art than science, mostly intuition and consultation with other moderators and a dash of voodoo. If there was any credible evidence that your view on this matter represented in any reasonable way the views of the majority here or the best interests of photo.net, we'd respond appropriately.

 

Well, heck, we'll respond appropriately anyway. But you probably won't think that's funny either.

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