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According to the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, the average age of service in those wars is 27 years. If Fred or Catherine have a better source for their "kids" and "boys and girls" they should post it.

 

Listen to yourselves, the language you use, infantilizing grown men and women, unwilling to accept they are capable of making decsions because you disagree with those decisions. You find them ill educated, unsophisticated, naive? Your condescension towards people not of your social, educational, and economic class is evident.

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All considered I side with Allen's opinion (he won't be surprised I think) ...

 

An ex pj, François, I would not be surprised my friend.

 

well, I repeat what I said, that it will not do it alone, it is a part of ! and processes can take years Pnina

 

(and I repeat I side with Allen it CAN contribute to this change but hardly accomplish it by itself) François

 

I have no argument with those two thoughts.

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Don--

 

At least in the recent several months, I have tried to avoid ad hominem attacks or arguments and have consciously

avoided those who use them, on me and others.

 

I am surprised at your resorting to them here. It seems out of character. I'd much prefer to engage with you on the

issues than on your perceived interpretation of my (or Catherine's) personality traits.

 

We have had many good dialogues where we've disagreed and come from very different places and perspectives,

particularly those concerning personal photographic style, (generalizing and summarizing here) you trying to present your

subjects more objectively and my coming at photos more subjectively. Those have been enlightening and respectful.

 

Your use of such overt sarcasm and then characterizing my way of thinking as "an echo chamber" of beliefs doesn't

advance the discussion any. It's just a distraction. As far as I'm concerned it's intellectual nonsense. (I'm guilty here of

ad hominem statements myself, but that's the issue I'm addressing. I wouldn't do it if we were still discussing the actual

subject matter of the thread.)

 

Now, your challenging my positions by referencing statistics and studies seems the valid way to go, with no further

characterization of Catherine or me necessary. You can cite those statistics and make your point adequately with no

further ado. Your addition of the line about our "condescension" is not useful. It is possible that we could offer alternate

statistics which might contradict yours (I haven't been moved by your responses to seek those out). It's possible that

your statistics don't really address the heart of the matter that Catherine and I were discussing and we might further

clarify our positions to put your statistics within a context. But I won't sit here and defend against accusations of

condescension. That's for group therapy, not a philosophy thread.

We didn't need dialogue. We had faces!
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Don ---

 

Your condescension towards people not of your social, educational, and economic class is evident.

 

I resent that you assume to know me, what do you know of my social, educational, or economic class. You know absolutely nothing of who I am, where I come from, or how I got where I am today.

 

I refuse to argue with you on the rights or wrongs of our government. This post was about an entirely different topic and you for some reason latched on to a few comments made to illustrate a point. Any war, any famine, any disaster could and has been used to do so.

 

I will say one more thing, in my job I see many military personnel leaving and returning to Iraq. I will agree with you that I saw people of all ages but a large number of them were very young. I also saw the families (wives, husbands, children) crying at the gate as they boarded the plane and I can assure it is a very painful picture. I was also on more than a few flights that were bringing back the dead bodies of our soldiers with the family waiting on the tarmac crying as the plane pulled in. I have been lucky, none of my family or close friends have lost their lives to this war, but I have seen and heard enough that I can not and will not condone this war.

 

I will not pretend to be more intelligent than I am, I am not going to spout statistics at you for the simple fact that I do not have them. It is however amazing to me that otherwise very intelligent, reasonable people can become so agitated and angry on this subject.

 

I am with Fred on this all the way and he put it much better than I ever could.

 

Catherine

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Catherine: "I resent that you assume to know me, what do you know of my social, educational, or economic class. You know absolutely nothing of who I am, where I come from, or how I got where I am today."

 

I only know what you write.

 

"I refuse to argue with you on the rights or wrongs of our government."

 

I have written nothing at all about the rights or wrongs of our government, so you don't have to refuse what wasn't offered.

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Fred: "It's possible that your statistics don't really address the heart of the matter that Catherine and I were

discussing and we might further clarify our positions to put your statistics within a context."

 

"It is possible that we could offer alternate statistics which might contradict yours (I haven't been moved by

your responses to seek those out)."

 

Here's one: the average age at death in the Iraq War is 19. If you have any interest in veterans issues or in an

antiwar movement you shouldn't need me to move you to seek them out.

 

"But I won't sit here and defend against accusations of condescension."

 

I don't think you can defend yourself. Take my advice to Catherine and reorient your sentiments to reality --

even though you are 54. An avuncular 'anyone younger than me seems to be a kid' is not sufficient.

 

"Your use of such overt sarcasm and then characterizing my way of thinking as "an echo chamber" of beliefs

doesn't advance the discussion any."

 

And what is your 'I'm 54 and they are kids to me' but an echoing of your beliefs in the face of the reality?

 

I look at this from the perspective of "the kids", who are my family, friends and neighbors, and not from the

perspective of someone disassociated from them -- those who are not being 'lied to by recruiters', not

experiencing 'economic necessity', and who are not among 'certain groups of people'. You have to read what you

write from that perspective and not from that of a petit bourgeois academic. I've advised you to talk to "the

kids" before you speak for them.

 

You are welcome to discuss this further in email.

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It's evidently difficult for extremely elderly people (ie over 30), such as Fred G, Don E, Glenn R, Allen H or myself to conduct useful political discussions online. I'm guilty as often as not, but but this one's ridiculous, way off topic.

 

Glenn's comment of Jun 23, 2008; 08:26 a.m. was the last well written, reasonably well-intended post on this thread.

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