Leica M8-2 Announcement?

Word from the horse's mouth:

 

" Dear LEICA M8 customers,

The desire to own a digital camera manufactured by Leica, possessing the identical lifelong value retention associated with every Leica product, was brought to us by many of our customers. Leica Camera AG has now configured the LEICA M8 to meet this demand. With today?s newsletter, we would like to inform you exclusively and in advance of an outstanding innovation regarding your cherished LEICA M8.

 

Subjects

LEICA M8: An investment in the future

What does the first upgrade kit include?

How do I get the upgrade for my M8?

Firmware update 1.201 available

 

LEICA M8: An investment in the future

 

 

With the introduction of a perpetual upgrade program, every LEICA M8 will forever be a state-of-the-art digital camera. Today?s and tomorrow?s users will always be able to incorporate the latest refinements and developments in handling ease and technology. It is our aim to secure your investment in the LEICA M8 for the future. ?While other digital cameras quickly become outdated and are replaced by newer models, our new concept extends the value retention and resistance to obsolescence embodied in the Leica ethos. Over time, we will gradually offer new product features and developments as upgrade options,? declares Steven K. Lee, CEO of Leica Camera AG. ?Our customers can therefore still invest in the photographic tools they need without worrying that they will miss out on improvements and technological developments alo ng the way.

This information will be presented during the PMA fair in Las Vegas, beginning January 31st.

 

What does the first upgrade kit include?

 

 

? Scratch-proof sapphire glass cover for the LCD monitor.

? Noise-optimized shutter with a fastest speed of 1/4000s.

? If so desired, the camera will be picked up at your home and sent directly back to you, without any intermediary stage in the process.

? Health-check and complete adjustment of the camera, testing all its functions.

? Installation of the newest relevant firmware.

? New factory warranty of two years covering the same conditions as for a new camera.

 

How do I get the upgrade for my M8?

? This offer applies exclusively to all registered M8 users.

? We will inform you shortly via e-mail when the website is updated with detailed information about the new M8 upgrade program, and will also inform you as soon as possible how to purchase the first upgrade certificates.

? The fact that you are registered as a M8 owner will give you guaranteed access to an exclusive online area where you will be able to purchase your upgrade certificate.

? Purchasing the upgrade certificates will be possible as of March 2008 - the actual upgrading will commence as of August 2008.

? The upgrades will be fullfiled in the same order as the upgrade certificates were purchased. It is therefore advisable to acquire the certificate as quickly as possible.

 

Firmware update 1.201 available

In keeping with the overall sustainability of the concept of the rangefinder camera system, Leica Camera AG is now offering all LEICA M8 users an updated version of the camera firmware, which can be downloaded free of charge from Friday, February 1st from our website. Among other things, the new firmware version contains new, substantially improved automatic white balance algorithms for natural color rendering in nearly all light conditions. We will send you special information via e-mail which contains a direct link as soon as we post the firmware update on our website.

 

We would feel very honored if you would be amongst the first to participate in our new program for the lifelong value retention of your M8.

 

Yours Sincerely,

The Leica internet team "

>>> While other digital cameras quickly become outdated and are replaced by newer

models, our new concept extends the value retention and resistance to obsolescence

embodied in the Leica ethos.

 

Sheesh. For $1,800 (the price of a state-of-the-art nikon D300), one can "extend the value"

of their M8 with an upgrade that does not benefit performance.

$1800 does seem like an awfully large chunk of change for a non-scratch screen and a quieter shutter. I wouldn't mind paying for upgrades I actually care about, but so far I have had no issues with either scratches on the LCD screen cover or the noise of the shutter. Even worse, not only would I be paying dearly to have stuff fixed that isn't broken, I would also lose my M8 for a few weeks while all these expensive repairs that I don't need are being done. I'm also damn sure that Leica will want to put its hands in my pockets again before I ever see anything that I really care about on the upgrade schedule - lower image noise, full frame sensor etc.

 

This all seems like a great deal for Leica and a rather poor deal for its customers

I am seriously upset about the fact that I still can't order a black paint M8ate - when is Leica going to treat it digi customers with the same consideration and respect a its film shooters. My BPMP needs company but no way can I sit my cheap black finished M8ate next to my luscious BPMP - it is an interior design nightmare for me I tell you.

Gordon Webster wrote:

 

> This all seems like a great deal for Leica and a rather poor deal for its customers.

 

 

Absolutely right, Gordon.

 

I wonder how many M8 owners actually realised that they were actually taking part in the first stage of a long beta testing program for their $5500? And that participation in the second phase of the beta testing of the M8 would cost them an additional $1800?

 

So for $7300, what do they get? A flawed 10.3 MP digital camera that still has serious IR issues that can only be partly cured by using UV/IR filters that themselves cause other issues when used with wide angle lenses. It isn't as if anyone would want to use wide angle lenses with a sensor that has a multiplication factor of 1.33X, is it?

 

And for $7300, the camera still only offers 10.3 MP which compares badly with the 10.0 MP entry-level DSLRs from Nikon, Sony, Olympus, Panasonic, Pentax and Samsung, with prices starting at less than a tenth of the price of the upgraded M8-2. Even the superb Canon EOS 5D with full frame sensor and 12.8 MP only costs a quarter of the price.

 

Leica Camera is sorely testing the patience and loyalty of its customers. Leica's revival has been based on steady sales of the M8, but how long can that situation continue? There is an ever-greater supply of M8 bodies on the used market, and here in the UK, several Leica dealers are offering discounts on new M8 bodies.

 

Unless Leica offers an M9 with a better sensor (with more pixels than an entry level DSLR costing a tenth of the price) I think sales of Leica digital M bodies will inevitably stall at some point during 2008. And that could call into question the whole future of the company, unless it is taken over.

 

Tony

<<I've had a digital M long ago it is called an M6 and a Nikon scanner, sorry this is miles

cheaper than M8.X and does not crop your wide lenses!>>

 

Yeah, that's my favorite solution too. I love my MP and M6, but when you're on assignment

and on deadline, the sad fact is that digital is now a fact of life. I've processed film in hotel

rooms and scanned it on deadline. It's not fun, and (alas) is no longer feasible in today's

market.

 

I'm torn about the M8. I was just about to pull the trigger, since I've never really loved my

canon gear and still often shoot on personal or long-term projects with my leica gear. I

also have a full set of lenses, so my only costs would be for the camera. I would love to

shoot with the same gear for film and digital, and the idea of a digital RF is extremely

exciting, despite the camera's serious shortcomings.

 

Ten MP is more than enough for me. My 1dMKII's are 8mp, which is fine. Manufacturers

and consumers get caught up in the MP race, but photosite size is important too.

Cramming too many pixels in a small sensor is not a good solution. Compare files from

the 12mp G9 and any of the old 6mp dslr's and that becomes clear.

 

The M8 crop factor is annoying, and the filters seem to be a pain, especially since I know

I'd be better of removing them when I shoot film, so it's one more thing to deal with. But

at any rate I came very close to ordering one the other day, but thankfully I saw this

thread first. I feel like the upgrades are minor, but it certainly brings up issues.

 

If you have an M8 and decide not to get this upgrade, will you still be eligable for future

upgrades, ones which might actually improve image quality? And will future firmware

updates work with non-hardware updated cameras? I don't want to buy a camera and be

taken hostage every few years to the tune of an $1800 upgrade.

 

And of course, If I wait, I still want to know how much a new m8.2 will cost and when

they'll be out.

The astonishing arrogance of Leica management! To assume that there is enough of a gullible customer base with more money than sense to feed their slow, drip-feeding of almost worthless updates.

 

I love my M6's and would like to be able to shoot the same simple, reliable way with digital, but Leica is still a long way from that with their M8. By the look of things they are not really trying to offer what their customer base wants - full frame. Leica really does need some serious competition in the digital rangefinder area - roll on CV/Zeiss/Nikon or whatever it takes to take rangefinders out of this cultish, luxury good category, and away from these uncreative Leica managers.

I have gotten my feet wet digitally speaking with a D-Lux 3, but take the bulk of my pictures with my trusty M-series cameras. My niece, who travelled all through Europe and Asia with just a V-Lux 1, is taking the plunge with the new Olympus E-3 DSLR at a fraction of Leica's prices. I do not know anything about the E-3, but it does not seem Leica are offering much bang for the buck vis-a-vis other manufacturers' products. Yes, I would love to use my stable of M lenses with an M digital, but the less-than-full-frame sensor is a turn off as are the prices. And what happened to the R-series? Gone and forgotten?

You can't buy immortality. If you have enough disposable income, you can however buy and enjoy finely made products that are worth upgrading because they have components that are worth retaining rather than just throwing the whole piece of junk in the garbage to get the next technology-improved piece of junk. A few years ago, I bought a Yamaha receiver: not the entry level model. After 14 months, just beyond the warranty, the center channel amp went out. Yamaha told me it was not worth repairing. Is that what you want?

 

Who could have been so naive to think that the M8, as a digital camera, could offer the reliability of a well made tool like a hammer? Although I have an M6 and some of the best lenses, I can't afford to buy an M8 or I would have, and being able to afford it means realizing the entry price to something unique and knowing already that an M8 could not be an M3, with all the good and bad that this defines. (Leica will have to offer an economical option to the M8 before I will buy in, but then I will.) I have to think that people that bought an M8 and are complaining about the M8.2 program are like me in that they really couldn't afford to buy one to begin with, except unlike me, they bought one anyway, and now their neurosis about the purchase requires them to transfer their internal frustration upon Leica, no matter what proposals are offered by Leica unless they meet the absurd requirements of each narcissistic psychology.

Wish they would simply build digital attachments for the M2, et al. A quieter shutter? Please. If people cared about that en masse, the world at large would never have switched to SLRs. Anyone who is going to notice you taking a pic is going to notice you taking a pic. You want quiet, get a point and shoot or a cell phone camera. I cannot believe anyone would pay for this upgrade rather than purchasing a lens with that money.

 

Keith

Responding to the doubts expressed by Noah,

 

Although it's a costly decision and therefore a big one, don't let the comments of people who may not even own an M8 be the only factor in your decision. Last fall i moved from an M6 to an M8, and although the crop factor is a 'factor', the IR issue is, to my eye, fully solved by the filters, and the issues regarding cyan shift and vignetting (which result from the filters) have been well-addressed through either lens coding or use of cornerfix software. For thoughtful analysis of all of this, check out John Reid's pay site, Reidreviews.com, if you haven't already.

 

Sure, it requires some thought in the photo taking process, but then, nobody who uses a rangefinder is a stranger to doing things manually, right? I'm not saying it's perfect, but in day-to-day shooting, i don't hardly think about it.

 

And most importantly, the images that are produced from the M8 are to me, spectacular. I simply don't agree that they compare unfavorably to other cameras of similar pixel dimension sensors. I think they are really special captures.

 

Sure, you might wait for the 8.2, just to be up to date, but it's clear that those changes are slight. i suggest you bring an sd card to a camera store, and shoot a few demo images with an M8, then bring them home and print them. I suspect you'll see soon enough that whatever its shortcomings, the M8 is a very satisfying tool to use.

 

John

Mark,

the issue is more with boutique refinements versus genuine innovation or improvement. A number of things could, clearly, be improved with the M8, yet the tendency of Leica management is to find ways to extract more money from their small, well-heeled and so-far loyal customer base. If they push this too far, they may find that customer base collapsing.

 

Things they sould be concentrating on, especially at the prices they are charging, are better reliability and better quality control. No matter how pretty a thing is, or how 'supposedly' well built it is, if it is unreliable, then it is junk.

 

I'm interested in something that works as well and reliably as my M6's, I'm not interested in buying into any silly myths.

 

Other things they could improve, apart from solving the FF issue, are better dynamic range, better highlight control and far better high ISO facility. While they are at it they could even offer a B&W only sensor where all pixels are tones of grey, thus greatly extending B&W tonality for the many that use a Leica just for that. Innovation, not a choice of silk or satin linings.

It IS true to the nature of Leica to do this. After all, how many major changes did they actually introduce from the late 20s to the early 50s, as opposed to step-by-step refinements over the years. I only need/want them to come out with a new model so that the M8 becomes more affordable! We ARE all stuck on the idea that our cameras need to be replaced after each few years, as Nikon and Canon would have us believe. Bravo for Leica for saying that is bunk. It is not the philosophy of offering upgrades as opposed to a new model that I have a problem with; it is the specific upgrades...they are just entirely useless, and anyone who spends any money on them is a fool.

 

Keith

Perhaps a better (nicer) way to say it is: I can't see a lot of sensible M8 users seeing these modifications as being worth while.

 

Leica now caters to a small and wealthy group who is largely guided by the desire for conspicuous consumption rather than image-making ability, and they know it. I do not see how they have stayed in business all these years.

 

Keith

Consider these numbers:

 

Canon 1DMkIII new today: $4,500

 

Canon 1DMkII (no "n") from 30 months ago, used value (per KEH): $1900

 

So would it have been better to acquire upgrades from Canon over the past 2.5 years (first

the"n" and then the "III") for - say - $3,000 total? Paid in steps?

 

Or sell/trade your 1DII for $1400-$1900 and come up with $2600-$3100 cash to

"upgrade" to the III (leaving aside the AF issues).

 

Come next October, your M8.1 may be worth $3600 - and the new M8.2, retail, may be

$6000 (the dollar being what it is). Would you rather sell and buy new, for $2400? - or pay

$1500 for the upgrade (remember, no VAT charged for U.S. customers - deduct 19% from

the German Euro price).

You can't compare Leica to Canon and Nikon. Their customers are different. Their products are different. There are professional photographers who can actually use the "upgrades" of the new SLRs to make lots of money, and, you might argue (they certainly do), to stay competitive with other photographers. They say even though they can do the job with any camera, they need to stay competitive above all else. How many people nowadays make a living with their Leica M8? Some, maybe, but not a lot. Leica doesn't need to be innovative when they know that their market is wealthy or upper middle class hobbyists who pull their cameras out and measure them more often than they actually use them, and will buy whatever their latest greatest is. Their pro market is practically dead. I am sure lots of pros have Leicas for fun, but not for day-in-day-out professional use like they used to.

 

I agree with Andy. I have advocated for years a Nikon or Canon component SLR system into which you could install any of a wide array of components in your own personal cocktail. But these companies know that we have a consume-and-toss, non-service-friendly culture/economy. No one wants to maintain a sensible camera for 10 years or more. They want to sell their old "crap" after a few years and move on. People are idiots, but you can't fault Canon/Nikon for taking the idiots' money. They are, after all, a business.

 

Like I said; I like Leica's idea. It is nothing new. It is the Leica tradition, and it makes a lot of sense. However, the actual "upgrades" are friggin' idiotic. The best part is the two-year warranty. A quiter shutter? Why? So well-off hobbyists can take crappy group pictures of their family at Disneyland and not be heard? Special glass so when the well-off hobbyist is in the dirt ducking bullets in Afghanistan, his precious viewfinder doesn't get a nick?

 

Keith

Yes; the 5D is simply a 20D/30D with a film-sized sensor. The D3 is basically a digital F6, PLUS all the latest technology included since the F6.

 

Big difference in build and responsiveness.

 

For your every day average shooter, there is no practical difference (meaning the pix you will get), as your every day shooting doesn't need a fast camera, a well-built, camera, clean high ISOs, or all the latest doodads.

 

One is a pro body. One is a mid-level body. The only thing they have in common is that they are the same format.

 

Keith

that was supposed to go in the NIkon forum.

 

sorry

To whom it may concern at Leitz, if anyone is concerned,

 

From the movie"There Will Be Blood" - "don't talk to me like I'm stupid!"

Hmmm, the original M3 shutter was good for several models over 50 years.

The M8's shutter has been around for about a couple of years until Leica embarrassingly has admitted that it is a noisy, shaky design that really should be replaced. Sapphire glass has been around a long time. Why wasn't it in the original M8 design, given the doubling of the sticker price over the M7 generation?

 

Clearly, the mechanical engineering brainpower has long left the building at Leica.

<i>Consider these numbers:

<p>

Canon 1DMkIII new today: $4,500

<p>

Canon 1DMkII (no "n") from 30 months ago, used value (per KEH): $1900 <p></i>This is a poor comparison in most respects. The 1D series is for professional photographers. At 30 months, I won't care how much mine sells for, it's already more than paid for at seven months.<p>The reason I said "in most respects" is that to a great extent, the current Leica cameras are for the well-off. In that sense, most probably don't care how much they spend and what it's worth after a few years.

What I find most difficult to take is that now Leica does not have to build to mechanical perfection anymore - a very costly and labour intensive process - only to electronic perfection, their charges are still increasing at an astronomical rate.

 

Yes, I know they have to recoup R&D costs (though they buy in their sensor), and that they sell in small numbers (though that has been the case for years) but they do not have anywhere near so much labour cost(the really expensive part) as before.

 

Given this, and that their digital is pretty basic, couldn't they reduce their prices?

 

However we look at, their high price/simple spec camera should give them ample room to up their quality control and customer service so that no one has to suffer unreliability, or at least on the rare occasion that something bad gets through, there is an immediate and effective response from Leica.