Help! Need some advice with Bride's questions.

Hi everyone! I met with a bride and her mom the other night as they are looking

at me as their possible photographer. They met with another photographer the

next morning and ended up choosing me. I was very happy of course but the bride

has presented some questions to me I am not sure how to answer.

 

One concern she had was how long do I store the files and how are they backed

up. I assured her I had a back up system in place and I keep them indefinently.

(I am curious to know how long others keep the negatives). She said she would

like the negatives. I do not include the negatives in the pricing of my

weddings. I offer VERY competative prices. I am very generous with the packages

in that the bride gets 200 prints in an album. Because my packages are so low I

do tend to rely on some print orders to make more money. This may not be the

best business model but this is how it is at this time. I don't have a strong

opinion on the matter as far as selling the negatives but I have no idea how to

price them out to her. Can anyone give me an idea of what they charge if

someone wants to buy the negatives?

 

Okay her other concern is with having a back up plan. Her concern is what if I

get sick and cannot do the wedding. I can understand this concern but so far

this has never been an issue. In fact, at one wedding I was pregnant and threw

up all morning before the wedding. I ate crackers like crazy all morning and

ended up being okay. I was going on with the show no matter what. Now what was

interesting about this concern is she brought up my children. She specifically

said she was concerned that my children may bring something home that would get

me sick. Yes kids have germs...:)...but I don't think I am MORE at chance of

getting sick than anyone else. I work at home and do not get out in the work

place. I wonder if someone who works in an office everyday has more of a chance

of getting sick than me? Anyway, that is not the point really. So my question

is, what do YOU do as a back up plan? I have no fellow photograhers in the area

that I have a system worked out with. Besides none of the photographers are in

my price range, I am under, so I don't think any of them would do it for the

price she is paying me. I don't want to blow her off by saying, well this has

never happened to me before so I don't think it will be an issue, but then

again I am not sure how to resolve her concern either. I know to her this is a

very real issue. I do not have an assistant either.

 

If any of you can offer an advice I would truly appreciate it. I am meeting

with her again tomorrow and hope to have a game plan ready.

 

Thanks again!

Hi Suzanne. Your packages and pricing are about the same as mine. I am raising mine soon but I see where you are coming from.

 

I do sell the high res cd but my price sucks, so I am no help to you there. Since you said you make most of your money off of resales I would ask how much you typically make off of one wedding and then go from there. I am sure more seasoned photographers will probably chime in too. You can also do a search because this is asked a lot.

 

As far as the sick policy, it seems sort of nit picky ish that she would mention your kids as if they were one big walking germ. You are probably immune to more since you have kids. I have in my contract that if I happen to not be able to make it, I will refund all monies paid. Of course, I would call every photographer that I know to see if I could pay them to fill in and would do everything in my power to be there myself, but I do not know of many photographers that gaurantee they will find a replacement. That is too much of a liability in my opinion.

As far as her second issue, I would work at developing a relationship with some other photographers in your area. That won't help her, because you likely won't get this accomplished in time, but it might for the future. I include a line in my paragraph about trying to secure a replacement photographer in the case I am not able to shoot the wedding, and I know of several others that might be available for me, but there is never any guaranties. I might drop over dead and not have time to call my friends anyway. My backup photographers all charge differently than me, and any wedding that gets handed off to them would be on their own for costs, after I refund the deposit of course.

 

Whether she thinks about it or not, she has the same lack of guaranty with the minister and caterer, flower and cake vendors, and even the venue might burn down the day prior. If she insists on multiple backups for all possible contingencies, she will have to pay through the nose for it.

 

As far as backing up digital negatives, I use multiple redundant hard drives. The best plan with these is to move one off site, and keep them rotating. Others do the same with DVD-ROMs. But what happens when todays drive technology is no longer supported by modern computers? It's bound to happen someday. I don't make any promises about long term storage to anyone. My own wedding photographer is probably dead now, but after 35+ years the business is certainly not there.

 

For that reason I think it's a good idea to sell the files to those who want them. Figure out what your average picture sales are, or might be if you did not sell negatives, and double or triple that. Or come up with package prices that includes the files. Another option is to sell the files a year or two after the wedding, when all your resale pictures are done with.

Hi, Suzanne, maybe I have some ideas for you.

 

First, on the matter of "negatives" or digital files. I keep everything indefinitely, redundantly backed up on hard drive and archival-grade DVD disc (regular discs can suffer from disc rot due to the chemistry used, and archival discs use a long-life chemical layer). They cost a bit more, but it's valuable data. After a few years, I move them off the hard drive and keep 2 discs.

 

I provide all my clients with all images on disc as part of my pricing. My philosophy is, it's their wedding, and those photos are of their friends and family - they should have them all. I price a bit higher to "cover" the cost of any lost print sales, but still make print sales thru online hosting of their event on Pictage. How? Well, I tell the bride that she will OWN all images I shoot, all I ask is that she saves those for her own printing, and sends any friends and family members to Pictage to purchase their prints and enlargements. Then, I point out that if she's got all her relatives coming to her asking her to print them herself, or run the disc around to local labs, it's a lot of legwork and expense/trouble she really doesn't want (and she really doesn't). Plus, what they'd pay a decent lab is about the same as what they'd pay thru Pictage, so there's no incentive for her to go to all that trouble. Yes, this works for my clients.

 

OR, you could give them ALL the photos on disc EXCEPT the formals (the ones that people buy the most). That way, they have the getting-ready shots, ceremony shots, and reception/dancing shots, and you can sell them the formals as they desire.

 

You do need someone competent that might step in as backup, whether you go outside your area to another county and make arrangements, or train an assistant. I'm sure there's someone in your community who would LOVE to gain the benefit of your skills, in return for their help with a number of your grunt-work tasks (like photo editing, assisting, second-shooting at events, etc.). I'd even approach some of the higher priced pros in your area and discuss your situation with them. Even though they charge higher prices, I'm sure they have worked in your range before, and if you offer to back THEM up when they're sick, you might find a win-win solution.

 

I have three kids, and now that they're 6, 7, and 9, their sick days are far fewer. I'd still practice "safe contact" with them, especially a week or so before a shoot, like constantly disinfecting hands (yours and theirs), not breathing closely to their faces, no kissies on the lips, etc. Common sense stuff.

 

Hope this helps!

What does your contract say concerning the "negatives" (files on disc)?

 

When she agreed to go with you - didn't you make it clear what was included in the price and what was NOT included in the price?

 

We always write out fully in the contract EXACTLY what the couple will be receiving from us for the fee that both parties agreed to. Now - we do include the digital files of all the final images (200 to 250) in our packages, but our pricing model does reflect that as well.

I've never missed a wedding and I'm sure there are 1000's of photographers that haven't either. As Jim wisely said, get to know other photographers in your area. There was a situation in which a fellow friend/photographer had a heart attack at the age of 38. They opened him up from just below the neck to his belly button. Lucky to survive.He was well known as a nice guy and eager to help other photographers. So some of us took over for him and 6 months later he was back shooting weddings part-time. This is a perfect situation why it's nice to know other pros in your area.

 

As for the question regarding digital files, well it's your call. You will get several responses. Read past posts to help you decide.

I've never missed a wedding. Last year I had to take my wife along to one as I'd lost my voice. I communicated with her with crude hand gestures and she talked to the Bride and Groom for me. It was really only an issue for the formals, everything else I'm a fly on the wall.

 

Might be nice to have a backup I could count on, but anyone I would trust with it is most likely going to have a wedding of their own on any day I have a wedding.

This who will cover if you are sick is a very common question. We have the best backup each other and I have a few examples of doing weddings despite things, a broken arm (did not know the first day I shot with it, wore a sling for the season) and finding out my dad had died just as I arrived for a wedding.

 

Describing some alternative arrangements with other photogs also usually assures people. The longer you are in the business the less often this will be an issue to clients.

 

On the topic of what to charge for the images, it is up to you. I would scout around abit in your area and see what the going rate is. In this are someplace between $500 and 1500 seems to be the range. I am finding that if you provide the disc at the delivery of the final products then you still get the orders from friends and family. Most clients seem to want it as an archive rather than a print source.

 

The trend to not print is strong among consumers more likely to put it on their computer as a slide show or to show it on some huge highdef TV system than go to the local CVS and make 4x6s BUT if that is their intent so be it.

 

Brooke

Jim - >>My backup photographers all charge differently than me, and any wedding that gets handed off to them would be on their own for costs, after I refund the deposit of course.<<

 

You only refund the deposit paid? What about any other funds they have paid you? After all, it would be you that is backing out of the contract.

 

My sick policy is that I will do my best to find a replacement photographer, refund all money paid to me, but there is no guarantee that I will be able to actually find someone since we all have our own schedules.

Suzanne, personally I do not include the full res files on CD unless they pay for it

separately. I charge $447 for the CD. I do include a low res CD, with proof copy in the

border of each photo. The approach I take is to tell the client that I want the best for

THEM, that I consider my photos as art, and that I work with a pro lab in business over 50

years. The real clincher is I have a large, framed print... 20 x 24... that is comprised of two

photos. One photo is a "before", the other photo is an "after". I SHOW them that any print

ordered through me will be retouched to make them look their very best... no blemishes...

no shiney face areas, no bags under eyes.... smooth skin... no stray hair... etc. This before

and after photo pretty much puts to rest any desire of the client to do their own printing.

But... I do not stop there! I have a small album of about forty 4 x 6 photos. Half of them

were printed on a friend's home computer. She is a complete photo amateur and so the

photos are very representative of the results most people will get printing at home. (I

made sure and used photos of someone that needed some retouching). Beside the home

prints, I have the photos I have retouched and had printed by my lab. The difference is as

you would expect day and night. When they see THIS, they are sold on ME keeing the

originals and providing the prints. I have sold a very few full res CDs, but they wanted it

only for archive purposes. Bottom line... you need to SHOW people WHY they should

always allow YOU to provide them with prints. Let them see PROOF that YOUR prints are

FAR better than what they will get if they get prints ANYWHERE else with all the original

negatives or full res. photos on CD. Most people just need educating about this sort of

thing. Make them see you are providing the BEST for them by only allowing you to supply

them with prints, instead of giving them the impression that you are just money hungry

and want to FORCE them to only get prints from you.

 

Now as to the back up photographer. I also do not have one per se, however I am sure that

if I HAD to have someone replace me I could do it relatively easy. How? By being a long

standing member of our local photo club. Amateur photo clubs are everywhere, if not in

your town, then probably nearby. Pros and amateurs alike are members. But at any rate,

you will soon make friends and meet others who do weddings as a part of full time

business. At this very moment, I know of three people who I could go to if I could not

make a wedding date... but... so far... knock on wood.... I have never had to. I would have

to be bad, bad sick to hand my wedding off to someone else... but, yes, you do need to at

least know there are some people you can go to for help if necessary. Hope this helps.

Steve

>> I assured her I had a back up system in place and I keep them indefinitely. (I am curious to know how long others keep the negatives).>>

 

I'd rather not be the crypt keeper forever and ever, as I have nightmares about some day being 90 years old and living in a house overrun with negatives or DVDs littered all over the place. And cats. So I'd rather have my clients keep their own files. And cats.

 

>> Can anyone give me an idea of what they charge if someone wants to buy the negatives? >>

 

I'd suggest you figure out what your average profit from reprint orders is, and charge something no less than that.

 

>> Her concern is what if I get sick and cannot do the wedding. ...but I don't think I am MORE at chance of getting sick than anyone else. >>

 

Get a photo buddy. But considering that there's both a bride and groom, as opposed to one photographer, the odds are twice as much that one of them could fall ill the day of the wedding rather than you. Have you asked her who'll take her place if she's sick that day? Ha, ha.

As usual this forum never fails to amaze me at the support and responses I get from fellow photographers. You have given me some excellent ideas and suggestions. I think I agree with several of you that hey if I sold the negatives then I don't have to worry about them! I just bought a 500 gig external hard drive and I am sure I will fill it up in due time as long as my computer hard drives and DVDs. So yes, that would be nice now having to worry about it.

 

As far as getting sick, I am not sure how to resolve her concerns at this point because I have no current relationships with other photographers. I am not even sure how to foster that. But I will do the best I can to relieve her concern on that matter as well.

 

Thanks again for wonderful feedback. Please keep it coming!

 

Sincerely,

 

Suzanne

Dawn: "You only refund the deposit paid? What about any other funds they have paid you? After all, it would be you that is backing out of the contract."

 

Obviously they would get all monies returned, but normally they would have only paid me the deposit prior to the wedding. I don't collect final payment until I deliver. A non-standard practice that I prefer.

I charge $250 for up to 100 full res images on a DVD. I don't like selling my full res files but if someone really wants some, I feel a lot better about selling only a few of them, even if they are the best of an event and the most likely to get reprint orders.

You might try mentioning what State and what "area" of the state you are located ... who knows, there might be someone reading this thread that would offer to be a substitute for you IF needed.

 

?

Don't forget that if you hand over all the original files and don't keep a set for yourself, you can't very well use them to market your services (which should be a part of your contract) or make sales to stock agencies (with model release/permission). This is less of a problem with digital than it was with print. I recently spent about 80 bucks on a 500 gig drive as a redundant backup. Pretty cheap way to store 500 gigs of data, and a few years from now, that storage will be even cheaper and more voluminous. I keep everything. One day my children will be able to look back and what their father did all these years and understand the sacrifices, the artistry I employ, and the way my images capture those moments in people's lives.

 

As for holding people's images hostage in the interest of print sales, this was the predominate photographer business model for many years due to film negatives, and the difficulty of making a duplicate without losing quality. It's a different world now. I may miss out on some sales by giving the bride a disc, but that's time and expense I don't have to go to in fulfilling those print orders, some of which are pretty puny (because people don't want to pay the markup to make it worth my while). I can use that time and energy to market myself and do other things, which is a better usage of my time. And, if a bride isn't pleased with the quality of doing it herself, she can always come to me for help.

Hey guys. Again, wonderful information. I am in Southeast Mississippi. Thanks Steve for some numbers I can go by. I am not saying my model is the best, in fact I need to rethink it, so I appreciate the new ideas and better ways to serve not only myself but my customers.

~Local photography clubs and groups and start networking with photographers that are close by (as previously mentioned: just thought I'd second that notion).

 

~I just googled: "wedding photography mississippi" ... a lot of resources there.

 

~I am currently putting together my photographers referral list for 2008 which will be used for me to refer brides to when I have a date filled: another way to get referrals from them and a way to establish names and phone numbers of those in the potential/available pool of photographers that "might" be available.

Quote: Because my packages are so low I do tend to rely on some print orders to make more money.

 

Chances are with low budget brides they are going to the drugstore for reprints. I use to say in my contract free after a year for the disc, or $300 if you want it now. Now I don't include them unless asked. If you are building your business don't count on reprint orders.

 

Good suggestions from others on getting if you are sick.

I think since the digital era is here to stay... the digital files that now are what used to be

"negatives" can be sold to the couple as any other product, probably can sell them as

"bulk" or as a premium that is up to you...

 

Some couples really like the idea to have the digital negatives, because they want to be

able to pley with them and send emails and even do a webpage of themselves, so why

not seld them when its hot...

 

for me reprint orders are getting scarce, so I go with: would you want the digital files

also?

 

about getting sick I, like some others suggest that you make friends of your trade, we

can all give a hand when a fellow photographer is in need... it all comes around.

 

I hope my .2 cents help...

Suzanne,

 

I think the bride's questions sound pretty reasonable although it does seem she might have asked them before booking you if they were a deal breaker. She is probably just being cautious and trying to cover all bases.

I think you should answer her questions honestly and according to your business model. Let her know how long you will keep her files and explain your backup plan.

As far as digital negatives go, I know this is sort of an ongoing discussion in the field but I can just tell you my experiences and you can take it with a grain of salt.

As a second shooter, I don't have any real say in what happens to my digital negatives. But I fully plan on offering them to couples who hire me when I go pro!

However, as a bride I was insistent on retaining my digital negatives in full-resolution. I never made the first print from them but that was not my intent. I wanted to have all the precious memories of my wedding day archived and at my disposal. I wanted access to every shot captured (within the photographers' final cut) for many years to come! I wanted to look at them on my computer and know that I wasn't limited to only the files I chose to have printed.

I have never quite understood what value, besides marketing and reprints, a bride's photos have to the photographer. If it is an issue of money lost on reprints, my advice would be to determine how much you typically make on reprints from a wedding and add a little extra and sell them the DVD. You might even consider including an 11x14 or a couple of 8x10's in your package so that when and if the client decides to print at a cheap consumer lab, he/she will be able to clearly tell the difference in print quality and make the decision as to where they will obtain reprints based on the comparison.

Regarding the illness/emergency. Just look at it from the bride's perspective- it's a scary thought! But like many others have said, you can't control everything! Assure her that you have never missed an event and even give some examples of extenuating circumstances or sickness that you have worked right through! You may also want to explain what steps you will take to find a replacement of equal value/style to yourself but remind her that it is impossible to make an absolute guarantee regarding a third party's schedule/availability.

 

Good luck!

I get the sick question all the time, but once i was asked what would happen in I were in a car accident on the way to the event and broke all my bones ( apparently he had this hypothetical crash very planned out) and couldnt make it to the wedding... That was kinda creepy.

Well, I think it is VERY important to have backup for you if you are booked to do a wedding. My husband died this year very suddenly and

even though I shot the wedding I had booked 5 days later it was

nice to habe my backup shooting with me when I felt tears coming when they played "our song" during the first dance and I could just discretly step out to catch myself.

2 month after that wedding I fell and hurt my right hand and had to have it in a splint for almost 3 month..........no heavy cameras for

this girl doctors orders. THANK GOD for my backup......... :)

I highly recommend having a backup or two as I do, I am actuall planning on training a third one this coming season..........you never

have enough backup.

By the way, here is another thought that came to me when my husband

died so suddenly..........who will do all the postwork for you if you die? You have to designate a third party that is qualified to do that

in the style the clients expect (I do all my own album designs) so I

took out a special life insurance policy just for that, so the photographer of my choice can be paid to do the work for me in case

I die too. Anything can happen and it can come very unexpectantly.

So please prepare......for the worst and be happy if you never have to use it.

Sorry for all the spelling mistakes, I am quite sick today and I am trying to get well before Saturday, but I just talked to my backup just in case I can't shake it :)

Suzanne I have sent you a personal question email seperately, but on this topic;

<p>

Having this kind of question fired at you should not make you think about it. The bride is

looking for surety that she will not have to run around looking for a photographer at the

last minute. I think her request for your back up plan is reasonable.

<p>

OR she could be one of those brides that you really wont benefit from and would be better

off turning her down.

<p>

On the Negative (Digital RAW) front make copies of RAW's and give these to the bride, with

restrictions alowing you to retain copyright for commercial gain and also for your

marketing purposes. Then if she wants copies outside of you she will have to get someone

to do the job properly.

<br>This covers another of her "security" concerns.

<p>

I feel that she may have chosen you because you were cheaper than the other

photographer, this may be because your price did not include negs.

<br>As for working out the cost of your negs. calculate how much youve made from your

best wedding.

<br>Because potentially this is what it is worth.

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Cheers G

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P.S. Steffi; chin up.