LF Camera delivery HORROR stories!!!

Wes,

 

<p>

 

I am happy to send you the vials. We epoxy them in, so you will

definitely break them taking them out. We use a big granite surface

table that is carefully leveled with a precision machinists level to

calibrate the levels. We put the respective camera part on the

surfacen plate and keep the vials reading true while the epoxy

hardens. Once in a while the level drifts while hardening, which is

probably what happened in your case.

 

<p>

 

Regarding the finish, since you are the original owner, if you don't

like the finish, we are happy to revarnish it for you. The offer

stands. Our varnish is applied by hand and always has been. This

means there will always be some variation. The machanical

superiority and fifty year life expectancy of oil varnish makes this

worth while. Even eight years later, as in your case, we can still

apply a new coat. Polyurethane does not do well under thise

circumstances. Our varnisher is excellent. You would like the

results.

Thank you Ron, I will take you up on the offer of replacing the

vials. I will send you my address. I can live with the finish on the

camera. I knew before ordering the camera that the finish was

applied by brush and I didn't expect a perfect finish. I just

expected better than I got. I bought the camera to use, not as an

art object. I would not have been satisified with the workmanship if

I'd done the work myself though and I wouldn't have expected to pass

it off as acceptable to anyone else. I just seems to cheapen a fine

camera if the finish looks sloppy. The varnish is lumpy and looks

like it should have been strained before application. I'm assuming

you saw a need to make some changes since you said you had fired

some people.

Thanks in advance for the new vials. I will enjoy using the camera

more when I can rely on the levels.

Well, I'd like to give my experiences ordering from the Wisner company. Dan is not the only one who has had trouble dealing directly from the factory. I ordered a 16x20 camera in October of 2000, and, as of this writing, I am still waiting for Ron Wisner to finish the order. He is not an honest and trustworthy person to deal with. I have phoned him many times to find out about the progress of my order, only to be put off by his stall tactics. I am waiting for a replacement light trap for a film holder which is leaking. I also need a replacement ground glass, which was sent out from the factory defective. I have three film holders that I ordered over two years ago and paid for and have not yet received them.

Ron will say one thing and do another. He is a very dishonest person to deal with. He will tell you that your items have already been shipped, but he will not give you any proof of it by providing you with shipping tracking numbers. So, you wait about two to three weeks, and when the items you have ordered have not yet arrived, he will tell you that they are on their way. It is simply not true. He told me that my camera equipment qould be ready about three months after I placed the order. It has been over two years and I am still waiting! Do not give him anything more than a 10% deposit on anything, and NEVER give him your credit card number. He will take full payment from you, and then you will end up waiting and waiting. I am not exaggerating. I have waited over two years and I still have not receieved everything I have ordered. If you really must buy a Wisner camera, buy one from a dealer who has it in stock. Do not buy directly from the factory. You will get burned like me and so many other people who have dealt with Ron Wisner. I hope that people realize that there are many large format camera manufacturers out there, and that many are as good or better than Wisners, in many respects. The service you will get from the Wisner company will be very poor. Ron is a sheister, who needs to be exposed for his unethical business practices. He does not deliver! You can never take the man at his word. He lies to his customers and he behaves like a scoundrel. Don't do business with him. If Ron looses even one sale as a result of this post, I will have some confort in the anxiety he has coused me over the past two years waiting for my camera equipment. I have lost a lot of money on potential sales, due to equipment which was not delivered as promised. Buyer beware!

Last week I received my custom lightweight 12x20 camera from Wisner after an 18 ½ month wait. I experienced all the �stuff� that others talk about above, and would have as much right to whine and complain as anybody else.

 

The purpose of this posting is not to complain about, nor to defend Ron Wisner. I want to lend a different perspective, and a dose of reality, to the discussion.

 

Most of the trama I experienced during my wait for the camera was a direct result of reading this thread. Although I had spent a week at Ron�s Death Valley workshop, talked with his dealers, and talked with him by phone; reading this thread made me question my judgement and think that maybe I would be cheated. After reading this posting, I bought a plane ticket from California to the east cost to visit the Wisner factory (on short notice) to see first had what was going on with my camera.

 

My worrying was for nothing. I now have a camera that weighs less than two thirds of what the standard 12x20 model weighs. It is solid, easy to use and will work with every lens I have from an extreme wide 5.5 inch to a 42 inch lens. The geared rear axis tilt is a big deal for me in terms of ease of use, especially on a big camera like this. Best of all it is light enough that I can take it more than 20 feet from the car, in spite of my arthritis.

 

So here is the reality folks! There are three people in the world that make super large format cameras. That number is only likely to get smaller, not larger. We are practicing a dying art. If we expect people to support us with equipment and supplies, we need to support them (and some constructive criticism is supporting them). The each have their strengths and weaknesses, if any were perfect, they would not be dumb enough to be in this business. You need to pick the one that has the strengths that are most important to you, and has weeknesses that you can live with.

 

Some Reality about Ron Wisner (this is my opinion only, not necessarily fact):

 

The negatives:

Ron will always over commit him self � If you tell him you need something in six months, he will tell you he can have it in three. You will get it in nine months. If you can't plan around this, find another source.

Every fall the large format camera business is slow and Ron will do what ever he can to bring in cash to be able to pay his employees and keep the doors open. He will not cheat you, change your price once you order, or fail to deliver a quality product, but he may under estimate how long it will take to finish.

Ron has a lot of projects going on at one time. You are competing for his attention, so you have to be patient, yet keep reminding him or your project will get pushed down the priority list.

 

The Positives:

Ron is not a �good businessman� � If he ran his company using �good business� methods, he would not be in this business. Kodak operates like a business, hence does not support large format photographers. Kodak only offers sheet film as long as it provides incremental profit from production of x-ray film. When somebody develops a detector array large enough, or a way to focus the x-ray pattern on a small detector, Kodak will get out of the sheet film business.

Ron will always return your phone calls and emails. He will tell you the truth, as he sees it (usually over optimistic, but let�s face it if he was not an optimist he would not stick with this business).

Ron will make the camera you want, and it will do what you need it to do. It took 18 months to make my camera because he started over three times on the camera, and twice on the bellows. He won�t ship something until he is happy with it, and will gladly make any changes to it after he ships it to make you happy with it (you do have to tell him what you want but he listens willingly and is more than willing to make changes).

 

We are lucky to have three fine manufacturers to chose to buy our very large format cameras from. They all have their positives and negatives. It is important to know what they are and decide what is important to you and what you can live with. My decision was based on several factors. I have never seen the lotus camera except on the internet, although they were responsive to me emails, Austria is just too far to jump on a plane and visit them. The international shipping, customs, etc. was just too much of a barrier should I need to return the camera for repairs or modifications. Canham was pleasant to talk with and I think he makes a good camera, but I had never seen one, and he did not want me to come to Arizona to his facility. He has a reputation for not committing to less than a year to build the camera, then delivering early, but I was not comfortable with his lack of flexibility. I knew Wisner�s reputation for missing delivery dates, and had some knowledge of him as a person, so knew he was an honest person and would deliver a quality product. I was willing to wait 18 months for a camera that I hope to still be enjoying 18 years from now.

 

I would not personally recommend any one of these manufacturers over the other, but I am happy with my decision and if I were to do it over again, the only thing I would do differently is not have taken some of the comments in this thread so seriously.

 

I hope this alternative prospective is useful to others who have ordered or will order a �really big� camera.

 

Matthew

 

I too just received my 12x20 from Ron Wisner and contrary to others experiences I accepted and signed for it UPS 6 months from the actual ordering date. This is my first LF camera bought new and I am very happy with it.Ron made it as light as possible at 18lbs but it needed a bit of tweaking and an addition of rear swing so we schedualed an appointment at his factory at his suggestion. Let me say I had a great time down there! My impression is that Ron and his employees are very proud of their cameras as well as being receptive to my needs and it was a cool thing to see all of them working in tandem to get this 12x20 exactly the way I wanted it. Ron was also in there doing the physical work too, he is not afraid to get his hands dirty. There is a equal balance of men and woman at the shop and some of the employees have been there for 15 to 20 years. That says a lot to me. While I was there they cut the metal parts right on the spot and ajusted and completed my camera vision totally. They spent more than 2 hours doing this in a fun and jovial atmosphere. His employeees made a point to speak with me on the qualities of wood (mahogony vs. cherry)as well as other things and the entire visit was first class, from the prints on the walls to the 20x24 camera in the entranceway. I felt very comfortable there. Ron and his employees made an extra effort to finish my camera to my satisfaction and I am appreaciative of this. Again, my experience with the Wisner co. was great.You just don't get better service than this today. If you are patient and willing to communicate your needs and even travel down to the factory to get everything done just right you might just get the ULF camera of your dreams!

I have had a very similar negative experience both Wisner and

Hough. What Ron Wisner fails to explain in his response is his

habit of blatant lying. In January 2003 I sent my 12x20 in for

repair when it fell off the tripod because the base plate tore off. A

design flaw Wisner admitted. I also ordered a 12x20 vertical

back to be made. I was told it was his slow season so he could

have it done in a couple of months. He placed a deposit on my

credit card. I got my repaired camera back in May and was told

that the vertical back would be done the first week of June. For 2

months Wisner told me that "it was done", "it was shipped", "did I

get it yet?" He even went so far as to provide false tracking

numbers. I gave him a deadline of August 1. Wisner said I

would have it. I never got it. I canceled the order. I am still

waiting for the refund. This has been the most unprofessional

experience I have ever had with anyone in the photography

business.

 

Ken Hough told me it would be 8 months to rebuild my 11x14

Deardorff. I started to call a year later. Heard next week or next

month for 20 more months. Hough is almost forgivable because

he does such exceptional work.

 

I can see no reason to lie. Large format photographers by

nature are a patient lot. But if you tell me I am getting my camera

tomorrow you can bet I am planning on using it tomorrow.

 

I can�t help but wonder if these men could do business with

themselves?

 

By the way the base plate tore off the 12x20 camera again. But

luckily I had my hands on it.

Hi Ron,

 

The 8X10 complete package that I ordered back in 2000 was supposed to have included a Pentax V spot meter. It's 2007...almost 2008, am I ever going to get the meter?

 

Thanks.

 

Jason Kefover