D80 Build Questions vs. D200 & Repair Problems. Help!

I have read a lot of posts before posting this post, so don't shun me for

asking this as this is a bit different and I have now posted twice before with

this problem. This is a bit of an update and invitation for assistance. I

have sent my second d80 to Nikon Repair (I have 2) as both have encountered

complete LCD failure and died. I received notice today that the cam in

service had moisture on the PCB board; there is corrosion on the PCB board,

and liquid damage. To cut to the chase, the only "liquid" this or any other

cam I have is from my hands when I perspire or when I am doing a 2 cam shoot

with the other cam on my shirt. Since I shoot baseball and other outdoor

activities, I will sweat and sometimes a lot. However, after every shoot, I

towel all the gear down and blow it dry with a can of air. I called Nikon.

The service rep was very ?honest? with me in that the D80 body was not built

for harsh conditions. I asked him to define that. And he said, any use above

85% humidity, any use near 100 degrees, any use involving moisture of any kind?

including hands/body (camera resting on a shirt while walking). I said that

yes, this info is in every recent Nikon DSLR manual, and he felt most likely

from looking at the repair report (that I cannot see) that it was probably a

combination of where I live and hand/body persperation. Does this sound a bit

fishy to any of you? And a question, why would Nikon make a camera that you

could not take to the beach, the lake, the pool, on a river, or use anywhere

in a warm climate with humidity, etc.? I have a real hard time believing

this. I have read a ton of reviews this morning comparing the build between

the D80 and D200 and most all have noted that the D200 is a far superior build

with environmental seals, but the D80 SHOULD be able to handle most

environments. I bought the D80's over the D200's not for price reasons, but

for subjective color reasons. That's not the point. Does this sound

reasonable? Do I need to get D200's? Funny, my other consumer, prosumer, and

pro cams, vid cams, etc. never had had this problem. Any advice would be

helpful. This is my job and I am on vacation until August 12th at which time

we will ramp up again. So, I have a window here to make a qualified decision.

What do the D200 specs say?

 

I just checked the D80 manual and the humidity spec. is as you say, though the temp is up to 104F.

 

Most published specs are understated, but they are all the manufacturer has to live up to (allowing for some sloppy workmanship to keep a unit within spec.).

 

If your normal shooting conditions do include profuse sweating, do you really have a choice but to switch?

Update. After another lengthy call to Nikon service, they claim they have never heard of this before: body persperation causing circuit board corrosion and moisture problems. It took some doing, but they finally admitted that they believed me that I did not drop it is a bucket of water or spill a drink on it, etc. I did ask them bluntly about the design build of the D80. They then admitted again that they just did not see how persperation could cause this amount of damage. The cam is under warranty and yet they want to charge me. So, it's on the shelf under dispute as I said that won?t happen. Still may order some D200's today or tomorrow.

Just an idea: is it possible that condensation might have played a role in moisture getting inside your D80? E.g., you might have repeatedly taken it into a hot and humid environment from an airconditioned room or car.

 

And is the same problem happening to two different D80 bodies?

Shun: Good question. Yes, Nikon admitted as well that it could be as you described. But, where I live, it is a very temperate climate and we do not get extreme hot summers. And our humidity hovers around 70% average at worst. I am really not sure if this is a possibility. Most of the time, we do a full shoot indoors, or outdoors. Rarely are we going in and out. Howeve, when this happened this time, I was doing a reception going in and out of a building, but it was late afternoon and far from extreme conditions. Secondly, yes this has happened on two different D80 bodies. I am very frustrated at this point with Nikon for the first time as I have had fairly good luck with their service. We have silicon packs in all of our bags, lens cases, packs and keep our cam bods and lenses in a dry, dehumidified dust free area at 70 degrees when not in use. Either way, if it is persperation or condensation where I live, Nikon has one rep telling me it is a possibility and another saying, most likely not. Beyond that and even some of the above is just pure, frustrating conjecture. Canon? D-200's?

The card access cover on the right may be the culprit. When I pull the SD card out of mine, the end with the contacts is always visibly wet if I look closely. No problems yet though. If I could figue out how to dry it out, I could put a large card in it and just tape over it.

I suggest posting your story on the D80 forum at DP Review.com and see what kind of

responses you receive. DP Review has a very active D80 forum and it is my impression

their forums attract a larger number of photographers than Photo.net. And since there are

photographers from myriad countries and climates you may obtain more information that

might assist you in your dealings with Nikon. A search of relevant forum posts may also be

helpful.

 

I am a regular visitor to the DP Review forums and your situation is the first one that I can

recall regarding moisture damage that was not caused by a major spill or camera-

dunking. While I suppose that excessive sweating could introduce unwanted moisture

inside the camera, I'd like to hear from others before passing judgment on Nikon's (non)

customer support.

Update again. I just found out Nikon wants to keep the camera for at least a month if not six weeks as this is "puzzling" to them. Thanks for the advice, RL. Will check it out. Now, what's a guy to do with a cam bod missing from his shelf?

Well, I have been using D200 for only two months now, but the cam has never rested elsewhere than my backpack which is not entirely waterproof. If you add to it the rainy season india is going through now and i almost all the times in rain whenever in the road. More is a couple of weeks age I went to the zoo and there was a sudden rain, so the cam was totally drenched, not that i ever wanted, but happened. I also sweet a lot. But, important thing is that after all these happened to the cam, it works fine, really fine, no problem at all. That is the reason I bought D200 over D80 which is about 400USD less and I think I made a good choice. I also always go with RAW. I will recommend to upgrade. The weather sealing do work.

GV: I am a regular at dpreview as well. Great site. I did a thorough and long search there as well as the other sites and even good ole Google. I have not found any incidences like this. When I have time, I will post it there. And I wish to clarify things here. I am not angry with Nikon or their support. They are as confused as I am in that they finally took my word I did not douse it or abuse it. I am just out of a camera and wondering if I need to go up a notch per our AR methods of caring for gear. Thanks.

While an electronic or mechanical problem could develop from inside the camera, moisture has to enter from the outside. A single case could be some sort of a fluke, but if it happens to two different D80 bodies, I think it is likely to be related to the way a photographer uses the cameras or his/her particular shooting environment, but that is merely a guess.

 

You can continue to use the D80 and see whether a 3rd one would develop similar problems. A better sealed body such as the D200 should be an improvement. I have used my D2X in rain forests and even next to a waterfall; it got quite wet outside but it continues to work fine.

Agreed Shun. I do perspire often when shooting sports. Who doesn't? As to how I use/care for my gear, note above and multiply by 10 as we take excellent care of our gear. I am really leaning toward getting a D200 at this point as they are running around 1450.00 at reputable stores new. All I would really need is some CF cards. From dpreview on the D200 build: "Construction is much the same as the D2X with the same high quality magnesium alloy body, soft rubber coating around grip areas and rubber seals around compartment doors. You can only really appreciate how well put together it is by handling it.." No offense to you and your fine D2x, but we use our cameras a ton and since tech changes so fast, we swap out every 2 years or so. I would hate to drop 4.5k personally. But as you have stated, you are a very advanced enthusiats and a darn good one. If I were in your shoes, I might have a D2x as well. But, this my job. Sometimes, on a personal note, I wish this was just a hobby. And thanks Prasun, good to know. It may just be that my persperation is getting in via the card cover, when I change lenses, or seeping in when I have a cam bod against my soaked shirt for awhile. Or, when I shower with it or use it my hot tub. Hah!

David, if your problem was a common one I would expect to see a LOT of related posts at

DP Review. Gawd Knows there has been plenty of complaining about the D80 matrix meter

"defect" at DP Review... ;)

 

So I have to go along with Shun here and assume that there is something unique to your

situation... Perhaps you should consider a Nikonos? LOL

 

All kidding aside, I will be interested in seeing how this turns out for you. Being a

relatively new D80 owner (but a Nikon user since '81) I have a stake in this issue. I

skipped the D200 primarily due to its size, even though many folks seem to think that its

"weather sealing" and heft makes it a much better camera than the D80.

 

Since turning pro in 1989 I have only used one pro Nikon (an F3). I have always preferred

the so-called "consumer" Nikons for their relatively dimunitive size and reasonable cost.

An FM2 I purchased new in 1982 is still going strong; the F3 was sold years ago because

of its terrible flash-sync speed (1/80th) and the fact that it was a real brick when the

MD-4 was attached. But if I still remember fondly its "feel" and the butter-smooth film

advance lever. So It Goes.

GV, you are too funny. Thanks for making me laugh. I too am a lifelong Nikon user since 1978--the old F series. If you want, get my email and I will stay in touch with you keeping you posted. I did post this at dpreivew as well. FYI, I called an engineer friend of mine and he said the condensation and possibly persperation problem was a distinct possibility since the D80 cam bod is not environmentally sealed. We have known each other for a long time and he knows how much I can perspire when on the job.

I've left a D70 sitting outside in a brief but sufficient rain and it worked fine after (shockingly). When I was reading your description, the canned air sounded like a really bad idea - if there's water in a joint in the camera, canned air may not dry it out, it may just ram it into the camera. Don't know if that's the issue, but it's possible...

Sounds fishy. I've had lots of Nikons over many years, including a D80, and I am not at all careful with it. I take it everywhere, use it in the rain, out on boats, camping, etc., in all kinds of weather and temperatures, and I've never noticed any condensation or moisture problems inside the camera (yes, the lens will get condensation when going from cold to warm). I am skeptical that this is from perspiration. Please let us know how it turns out. This cannot be typical of Nikons or D80s.

Brian: I will let Nikon know of your suggestion in that it was Nikon who suggested I "blow out" the cam bods after use when I had my first mishap. Thanks much and I am not being sarcastic with you, but sincere.

So, since I have a major shoot coming up in three weeks and am down one cam bod, anyone have any suggestions? Shooting season is ramping up. Time for new bodies? D200's?

I would really like to know how much more "environmentally sealed" the D200 is compared to

the D80. What does that mean exactly? I cannot imagine that the D80 is completely exposed

to the elements... cameras are meant to be used in a variety of environments by

photographers with sweaty hands, etc. Even though the D80 is considered a "prosumer" DSLR

it has to be designed to stand up to normal usage by normal people. It is not logical that its

interior would be completely exposed to the elements.

GV: check the full reviews of the D200 and D80 at dpreview and you can get an idea of the design differences between the two cams. For the rest of you: nobody else is having this problem with their D40, D50, D70, or D80. All are sweating. Some photograph fog in waterfalls. Some have dropped their cam in the rain. Some have done far worse than I ever have. No one at Nikon has yet to know of this after 7 weeks of phone calls. Just letting you know so you can relax. I am doing pretty well. But it is odd that it has happened to 2 different D80's within 6 weeks. Maybe I should just send the bodies into Mythbusters.

From the DP Review reviews:

 

D200

 

"Just as with the D2X there are numerous rubber gasket seals around body seams, controls

and compartment doors. Nikon don't claim the camera to be waterproof but it's certainly

more 'weather proof' than the average digital SLR. Remember that the camera is only as

weather proof as its weakest link, this includes the lens mount and only a few of the more

recent Nikkor lenses have rubber seals around the mount ring."

 

D80

 

"Nobody quite does a quality plastic body like Nikon, it feels tight and solid, wrapped

around a good metal chassis. Over this are a few offerings of rubber to improve grip,

obviously at the front around the hand grip, at the rear for the thumb and on the left side

(from the rear).

 

Apparent Moral of the Story: Both are good cameras, but like venerable F cameras the

D200 is built to take rougher handling and conditions than the D80. Considering the

significant difference in price, the D200 should have more to offer than the D80. If I

tended to expose my camera to really bad conditions I would obviously have to seriously

consider the D200. But I'm not the kind of guy to abuse my gear or stand in the rain taking

pics, so thankfully I can save some $$$ and 1/2 pound in weight by using a D80.

 

David, it seems like you should consider the Path of Least Resistance and try a D200. If

you still have moisture problems there will still be some good eBay Nikonos deals... And

then there is always Mitchum, which I have successfully used for many years. MUCH less

expensive than a D200!

GV, I think I will just get these: http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product_Id=3632&JRSource=googlebase.datafeed.FUJ+QSWATER

 

Actually, I have had a lot of emails today and long converations with Nikon. Nobody using any of the D series Nikons have ever had this kind of problem. I am very carful and easy on my gear. I just happen to sweat a lot--but only sometimes. The people that have emailed me have subjected their cameras to far worse environments than I ever will and some of them all the time. It will all work out.

If I were them, I'd look for obscure sources of moisture- defective 3rd party batteries?, leaky filter capacitor, leaky internal battery? I can't believe the normal use you've described could lead so quickly to a serious problem.

Geez, it's a lot of work reading a long thread like this one. I'm going to go back to the OP though and try to apply some logic to this mystery.

 

The problem is rare enough that no one at the Nikon Service center can recall seeing it. It's not a fluke though, because it has happened twice to David with two different camera bodies. I think the answer can be found in something written at the very beginning of this thread when David said that he sometimes perspires a lot when he's doing "...a 2 cam shoot with the other cam on my shirt." I bet if David were to place the camera in the place and position that he normally does when doing these two camera shoots he could probably figure out exactly where the perspiration is entering the camera (perhaps through the SD card slot).

 

David, you need another camera and since you've had two D80 cameras fail on you, it's time to switch to a couple of D200 cameras. Your work clearly justifies the extra expense, and you should be able to adjust the D200 Image Optimization settings to match your D80 camera's colors. In answer to your specific question about whether or not the D200 will solve this problem for you; other then the lens mount, there is nowhere where moisture will be able to enter your D200. In fact, if you had a lens with a gasket on it, you may well survive falling into a body of water with the D200 (if only briefly).

Final comments here as I have discovered the error is on my part. I was instructed to use a can of air to clean out the exterior of the camera, battery compartment, memory card compartment and even to dust off the inside of the lens mount--the mirror and sensor area. However, as Brian Y has noted, this is the worst thing you can do to clean a camera, notably a digital. This is probably my own doing. I have just read several articles that this is the WORST choice you can make for cleaning a digital cam in that you are actually driving dust and moisture into the internal components of the camera. Now all of this makes sense as I have always used proper cleaning tools from a pro shop before--never have had problems until I started using air, and that was only recently this year. Just Google "camera cleaning with a can of air" and you will find several articles on this as well as here: http://www.ritzcamera.com/static/articles/tips/summertime-tuneup.html. And, this is an excellent site (do not use canned air): http://www.cleaningdigitalcameras.com/. Even the great and heralded KR gives good advice: http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/cleaning.htm. However, dusting off a lens filter after a shoot with air is OK. To Anthony, I am considering D200's and the reason this thread is so long is because people like me. Actually, I suspect this is so unusual and many use the D series Nikons through 80 that do not have environmental seals, there is concern. So, there you have it. Be thou not worried and use your can of air for what is is made for: not digital cameras. A MAJOR THANK YOU to everyone. I am honestly and hopefully sincere this has been good for p.net and all who shoot.