Shot list expectations...critical bride or did I mess up?

I posted the wedding images online. I was very pleased with them. The bride e-

mailed me with some complaints. My initial reaction, of course, was to get

defensive, which is why I have been sitting with it for a couple of days to put

it all in perspective. In that pursuit, I'd like some opinions from my

collaegues about how legitimate her complaints might really be. I not only

want to soothe my bruised ego, but I want to learn from this, as well.

 

Following the ceremony, we moved outdoors to a gazebo and took all of the

standard B&G, family and wedding party shots.

 

The bride wrote, "...we really wished you had gotten pictures of each of the

bridesmaids and groomsmen with each of us." Is that expected? I would have

gladly done it had I been asked. Was that my mistake? I took the usual

groupings of the B&G with each of their respective groups and also all of them

together.

 

"We don't even have a picture of the groom and the best man." Again, is that a

shot that is considered a must-do? I have a shot of the groom with all the

groomsmen. I would have gladly shot the two of them, had I only been asked.

Is it normally assumed that the two of them will be in a shot together?

Another must-do to add to my list?

 

"My maid of honor had to ask to get a picture of just her and I." No problem.

I took the picture. Is she justified in feeling put out because the maid of

honor "had to ask"? Again, is this shot a standard expectation that should not

have to be requested?

 

"There were a ton of pictures of certain people, but hardly any of people that

were pretty imnportant like my mom, aunt, or anyone at my family table." My

thought on that is that all family members were represented in the formal

groupings, and that the reception coverage was much more spontaneous and free-

form. I shot what was happening and did get all the toasts (mom included) and

specific events (father-bride dance, bouquet toss, cake cutting, etc.), but I

don't make a habit of doing table shots (which they knew) unless I am asked.

Once again, had I been asked to be sure to capture specific people at the

reception, I would have. Knowing that everyone was in the group shots, I just

shot the party as it flowed without a lot of regard to who was who.

 

I'd really appreciate some feedback on how much responsibility lies with me and

how much of this is the bride being overly-critical. Thanks!

I always take some individual shots ot the B&G with each member or the party usually before the wedding.I also try and get the B&G alone with each of their paretns (outside of the formals) I dont know if this is standard or not. As for the other photos during the reception,unless there is a specific request for certain people who may not be incorperated into the wedding, I just shoot the action as it happens. I usually try to ask in the pre wedding consulations who is important to photograph that day but if no mention of people like aunts and uncles are mentions then how are you supposed to tell one anonymous stranger from another?

"The bride wrote, "...we really wished you had gotten pictures of each of the bridesmaids and groomsmen with each of us." Is that expected?"

 

Yes. those are common shots and are expected.

 

""We don't even have a picture of the groom and the best man." Again, is that a shot that is considered a must-do?"

 

Yes. That is a must do shot. It is expected.

 

""My maid of honor had to ask to get a picture of just her and I." No problem. I took the picture. Is she justified in feeling put out because the maid of honor "had to ask"? Again, is this shot a standard expectation that should not have to be requested?"

 

Standard shot. Absolutely expected. Just like the shot with the best man.

 

She is right. I know you won't like that answer but she is dead on correct. You need to always always be sure to get all the family groups. I do two sets of formals in two locations and always have both groups represented.

 

All these shots are expected shot if you do formals. If you are strictly wedding PJ, you STILL get most of these shots. That is why wedding PJ is so very hard to do as the exclusive style used to photograph weddings. It can be done, but you have to work harder at it.

Well I suppose expectations differ from place to place, and even between different price brackets and cultural groups so I don't know if this is really even relevant...I would put all of the shots you mention in the 'might get' category but I generally ask about them (as in "now, do we want to do you with each of your BMs?"). Sometimes they say no, sometimes they say yes but at least it's their decision. I also ask at the reception if there are particular people they want photos with (they usually say no but then they can't complain later).

 

All of this may be completely different where you are. It is not uncommon to only have one attendant here so in about a third of my weddings it's not even an issue.

Perhaps what is expected depends on where you are located?

 

I've done umpty dumpy weddings and have never shot each member of the wedding party

with the Bride and then the Groom, nor even each wedding party member with the B&G

together. Not once, not ever. Wouldn't do it even if asked to ... just like I won't do table

shots.

 

But that has to be clear up front. It's all in how you present your way of shooting a

wedding. If a client has expectations it's good to get that out in the open up front, not

after the fact. When a client selects me they pretty much know what they're getting, and

it's not an endless stream of mathematical posing possibilities that leaves no time to do

much else. When confronted with such a client, I refer them to someone else.

 

I DO shoot the whole wedding party, and then the B&G as well as the Bridal portraits. If

there's time then the Bride and Bridesmaids, then the Bride and her Maid of Honor, then

the Groom and Groomsmen, then the Groom and his Best Man. Somewhere along the way

we get the family shots ... at least the parents, usually all the parents with the B&G. I most

always get all those shots when using a second shooter.

Rich, something that we've found helps tremendously is doing a "what to expect on the day of the wedding" outline and questionnaire before the actual day. As a part of that, we list the typical group shots we get and how long they can expect these to take. We then ask in the questionnaire which of the typical group shots they want and if they want others we didn't mention. In the "typical" shots outline, we don't include the bride and groom with each of their attendants.

 

We also mention that if there are certain people they want shots of, they need to assign someone to point out those people to us or they need to distinguish them from the crowd with a corsage or something similar.

 

Doing this has prevented any after-the-fact complaints and I imagine that if we ever got any, we could (kindly) point out that we had asked them ahead of time what shots they would like.

 

In your case, if you didn't do that, maybe you could offer to do some free portraits of the bride/groom and any of the friends they didn't get shots of? If you're reliant on referrals, doing an extra hour or two of portraits to keep a bride happy with you is probably worth it.

Agree with Nancy. They're expected. What's more important though is the communication before the wedding day and on the day. I never finish my formals without asking if there is anything else that they'd like. Often, we're rushed and I'll slow them down and check is there anything else you'd like. If we're really rushed, I'll ask the B/G to help me prioritize what they want and we can always get those shots later....but I keep note of any missed opportunities "later" when I encourage them to get the shots we missed.

 

I hate lists. When I meet with the B/G we talk about lists, their drawbacks, and I show them several, (I mean several full weddings) to give them an acurate representation of what they can expect. And I explain each wedding is different and the typical outcome of their expected timeline of the day -vs- what will really happen. Ultimately, my goal is for the B/G to see me as a member of their team and know that I'll champion their photos on the day....I truly want them to have beautiful photography as much or sometimes more than they do.

Yes, the shots of each attendant with the bride or groom is a standard shots list. I actually get several of those. I also get shots with the mom and bride together. The aunt or "anyone at the family table" needs to be requested by the bride. That is not your fault if no one spoke up and requested a formal shot with the bride. I don't do table shots unless requested but I do have the question listed on the info sheet the bride is required to fill out a few weeks before the wedding. Please don't feel bad though, my second wedding I forgot to get shots of the bride alone!!! YIKES! Luckily she was awesome and said she had plenty of shots with her hubby and didn't care (I offered to reshoot her at my cost). Point is we all make mistakes and that is how we learn. I am not sure what can be done to make up to the bride for this. If you are digital, perhaps do some PS cropping and get the bride with the person next to them. And then the same with the groom. I do this quite a bit if somone is the photo doesn't look right but some of the other people do.

Just to clarify, one of the shots she expected was the bride with each of her girls and the groom with each one of his guys,...right. I've never done it where I had the groom with each bridesmaid alone or the bride with each groomsmen alone. Although in smaller wedding parties there's been times it worked out that way cuz we were all playing and having fun at the backdrop at the reception. I also like to get the groom with all the bridemaids sans bride and the other way around with the bride and the guys sans groom.

Generally, the bride won't get a 5x7 in the album for each and every person in the wedding party (groomsmen; bride's maids) but the groom-and-the-best man is safe to get a each and every wedding. Small prints may be ordered for the bride to pass out to her friends.

 

 

 

 

After the wedding is done with --- not much can be offered as a fix.

The groom and the best man is a must.

The bride and the maid of honor is a must.

maid of honor alone, not sure there that it is a must i was never asked or i ever did this shot.

bride and groomsmen and vice versa but yes as a but each groomsmen with bride and vice versa, same answer as bride alone.

it is always adivisble to ask what is a must photo that they would like.

I don't take shots of the bride with each bridesmaid, and groom with each groomsman unless asked. It's not standard as far as I've ever heard until now. Even in Steve Sint's book it's not standard. Bride with maid of honor, and groom with best man is according to "the book". I don't take those either unless requested. Bride with bridemaids, groom with groomsmen, then all together. After the formal couple shots and the family groups, I do ask the couple and the MOB if there are any other formal group shots they would like me to take before we move on.

You may wish to make a list of all the shots needed, the MUST shots, and have a copy given to the B&G a few weeks before the wedding. Then they can add to the list, fax it or email it to you, before the wedding. They hardly ever do, but it an option for them.

 

With the new digital photo journalism styles I feel the brides comments could go both ways. We always take these shots that the bride stated/requested as routine, but we do not advertise as a totally photo jouralistic style only.

 

If you would like a list of the photos we take at every wedding, please email me and I'll sent you a copy. We give this list to all of our photographers and we carry the list as well and review it at the reception just to be sure we covered ourselves.

Thanks again for reminding me why I don't shoot weddings!

Colin, interesting comment - I agree! If you take the time to really study weddings, along with any other professional business it's really not that hard and very rewarding. But it sure is difficult to find the training sometimes. It's actually too bad that colleges don't offer wedding photography as a major because there is a lot to learn besides just taking the photos. Classes could include marketing, business plans, taxes, different wedding cultures, insurance, and whatever subjects are needed to survive in the business. Of course it helps to have some creative talent for weddings. It does have its moments of stress when things go wrong, like cameras taking a crap on you! Or what poor Rich is facing. That surely can take the fun out of wedding photography.

Hi Bob, - "Luckily" I'm in the category of "serious amateur/semi-professional" (loosely translated "I can take as long as I like to setup a shot, but still make the majority of my money doing other things (including wide-format digital printing") - so I can pick and choose only the enjoyable photo jobs :)

 

Seriously, of all the kinds of photographers and photography in the world, I have the most respect for the ones that revolve around weddings. Landscrape you can muck up - even portraits you can re-shoot if you have to, but weddings are right up their with landing the space shuttle and neuro-surgery: You only get the one chance, and failure is just not an option - too much responsibility for not enough money for me.

 

If you ever want a good laugh, have a read of ...

 

http://www.aljacobs.com/NEW%20WEDDING.pdf

 

The most scary part - according to Al, most of it is based on real events at real weddings (he's a survivor of over 400) - some good checklists too.

 

CHeers,

 

Colin

So, from all the posts it seems it does differ market to market ... or photographer to

photographer. From emphatic "it's all must do" to "never have done it".

 

Which seems to point out differeing approaches, differing levels of priorities, and differing

approaches to client orientation.

 

We are in business for ourselves, and can set the drum beat any way we want. If you keep

getting business, than your way is the right way ... for you.

 

The one commonality that seems to emerge is that it's important to communicate with the

client and manage their expectations from you ... or you end up with "coulda, woulda,

shoulda" when it's to late to do anything about it.

Rich, this is a long thread so I didn't read all the other posts; but this is my take:

 

The shots you described ARE "expected" ONLY if you give the couple reason to believe you

will be responsible for all the formal portraits they may or may not want.

 

We handle this several ways.

 

One, we ask the couple to provide us with a list of any "must-have" portraits. We tell them

to allow 3-5 minutes for every grouping, and that formal portraits must be taken during

the formals timeslot in their timeline. If a portrait is not on that list, or cannot be taken

within their timeline, we will not be responsible for it.

 

Two, we tell them that they are responsible for letting us know if there are additional

portraits they want on their wedding day. If it's not on the list, or if the all-important Aunt

Martha doesn't show up at portrait time, then it's up to them to locate Aunt Martha later

and bring her to us for a portrait with the bride.

 

Three, we remind them that we do not know who the "important" people are, and won't

automatically sense that they are important just because we're in the same room with

them. ;) Our clients should feel free to take a minute to point out the "key players" at the

reception. The immediate family is typically pretty obvious, but the extended family or

"close friends" are complete unknowns to us, and we may or may not photograph them

without a specific request.

 

Four, our contract explicitly states that, "because of the uncontrolled nature of a wedding,

we cannot guarantee any specific image or photograph that the clients may request." If

the bride asks for a picture of Granny, but Granny talks throughout the entire portrait and

won't pay attention to me, then I may not be able to get the "stop-and-smile" picture that

the bride envisioned.

 

Lastly, YOU need to decide how YOU want to present yourself to your clients. We present

ourselves as primarily documentarians. We are there to tell a story with photographs. We

take a limited number of portraits. We expect to be "flies on the wall." Our images are a

direct reflection of the coverage we sell to our clients.

 

Your approach may be different. You may want to be more hands-on. You may want to

take a lot of formals photographs. Whatever your style, you need to get a firm grasp on it

and SELL IT to your clients. If your clients aren't sure what your primary purpose is in

being at their wedding, they may very well assign a role to you -- and be disappoined

when you don't meet their expectations.

 

Setting expectations is key. Define yourself and you'll have fewer unhappy clients.

Hi Rick,

 

Generally the important pleople are wearing or holding flowers (a good tip in my opinion). I don't always take shots of the bride with each bride's maid or the B&G with individual bridal party members etc but I always ask them on the day (in addition to the agreed shot list). If they decline OK, if not it will take another 10 mins. I will ask them whether they want any other group shots even if I have shot all of the required shot list. In my opinion it is my job to find out what the brief is from the client just like any other photographic shoot. Often my clients will want to give individual shots to their close friends etc. I understand the difficult position you are in, how were you supposed to know if you didn't know? I shot a wedding and did the formals but didn't ask if there were anymore on the day. The bride's other son wasn't in any of the shots, he was latter in a car accident that left him with an acquired brain injury. She alway regretted that he wasn't in the formals on her wedding day. Experience is the best teacher but it demands the highest price. I hope you can come to an aggreable outcome.

 

Regards Greg

As most people have pointed out 'must have' shots vary widely between regions, cultures, AND photography styles. If nothing in the work you should her has the bride and groom with every person at the wedding individually then she should not assume you will do it. As Anne said a making a list and going over big expectations is a plus.

 

Several people have said the are 'must haves' and several have said they aren't, no clear answers here. Discuss this stuff with the bride and groom before hand. And let them know that extra grouping take extra time. Three minutes per grouping, 7 people on each side of the wedding party, means 45 minutes of just individuals with bride and groom. YIKES!!! If you shoot a very traditional style that is probably acceptable. Most brides and grooms I have worked with lose focus after about 30 minutes - the wedding party after about 15 minutes.

The real question is: Why is she complaining?

 

Is she complaining because those pictures are vital to her happiness? Or is she complaining because she feels that the set of pictures is somehow "incomplete" without each and every possible picture?

 

I suspect the latter. It's possible that no matter how good you could have done, it would not have been good enough.

 

I also agree with David that individual groomsmen with bride and bridesmaids with groom is quite unusual (and even just a tad creepy in my opinion, unless they're a really close knit group).

 

Now I'll take her side for a moment:

 

I fully understand the issue with individual groomsmen with the groomsmen and bridesmaids with the bride, because those pictures make great presents. The groom with the best man is particularly important from a male bonding point of view. And for every casual shot of a guest, you should get about three of the parents.

 

So, you could have done better, if for no other reason than you could have communicated better beforehand. The question is, what do you do now?

 

I would offer some generous print credits. $40 at MPIX.com can translate into several hundred dollars at the customer price, and it would be a great way to earn back some goodwill and get her off your back.

 

Tuppence,

 

Paulsky

There is a contract. There is no such a thing as "expected". That's the way we do, and that's the way I'd recommend it to everybody.

 

In fact, our contract is written the way that ultimately we are not obligated for anything :) Like someone said many threads ago to the bride: "You don't understand. The contract is only in existence to protect US from YOU".

 

 

SY-

Kosta.

I'd say the responsibility was before the actual shooting--responsibility to find out what the bride/couple wanted. The dreaded shot list is despised by many, but sure saves one from these kinds of problems. I don't promise to get every single one of the images on my shot list, but I do discuss the list just as a tool to find out what the client expects. I make several strong references to the fact that I cannot read minds (nicely, of course), and I ask them to think about who they want to see in their images and list those people by name and association.

 

At this point, if you didn't go over a shot list, or discuss the couple's expectations or list of desired shots, I would give the benefit of the doubt to the bride and try to do something to make her happier with you. Doesn't sound like she was even asking for any compensation, though.

 

For the record, I do always photograph the groom with best man and the bride with maid of honor, and each of them with each of their respective attendants only if asked to or the wedding party isn't huge and we have time. And I do try to pay attention to family members in candids, but it is hard to do so if all they do is sit at tables. If that is the case, I only pay extra attention to those people if they are noted on the couple's request list.

What a terrific response to my post. Thank you all so much. While there seems to be some divergence of opinion in some areas, it's obvious that going forward I must have a groom/best man and bride/MOH shot as a given. That's easy. The individual shots of the entire wedding party with the bride and groom separately I will not consider required, but I will certainly bring it up during our pre-wedding planning session.

 

In the end, though I was not specifically asked for some of the shots, the responsibility for facilitating communication was clearly mine.

 

This has been a valuable education, and again I thank you for your perspectives. FYI, the bride and I are on good terms, and I do plan to offer them something to assuage their disappointment. On the other hand, this was NOT a situation where the wedding photos were poor or ruined. There were a great many beautiful images and everything that they did tell me about was covered well, so it's not like I owe them a great big favor. There was nobody that was not included in the formals, just not in the combinations they wanted afterwards.

 

But, when all is said and done, I was the photographer and she was the bride. So, I'll put my ego back in the drawer and proceed to make her happy.

 

I don't plan on not making any mistakes in the future, but I am determined not to make the same ones. Thanks again.

Rich, one last tip.

 

If you use manual exposure, manual focus, and manual flash, you can do all combinations of bride and bridesmaids, and groom and groomsmen, in about two minutes. Stand the bride up with the maid of honor, take the shot, move the MOH out and replace with the next bridesmaid. Repeat until done, then repeat with the groom and his merry men.

 

Later,

 

Paulsky