Large Format Camera Comparisons

Dear All,

 

I am soon to purchase an entry level 4 by 5 field camera. I have looked at a

lot of options, and I am wondering what your opinions are on the following

cameras: Toyo 45CF vs. Toho Mini vs. Shen-Hao vs. Horseman Woodman vs. Wista

models vs. Tachihara. I have looked at Graflex models also, but their near

total lack of rear movements has turned me off of them.

 

As you can see I am looking at relativley lightweight, inexpensive field

cameras.

 

Also, if anyone knows where I can look at a Shen-Hao in New York or Los Angeles

this would be great, as I can only find it on the Badger website.

 

Regards,

 

Rosss

The best on that list is the Tachihara or the more expensive Wista. You should also consider an Osaka which is my favorite budget camera. It is made by Tachihara but is an upgraded camera for just a few $ more. I just got a 5x7 Osaka and was amazed at how good it is for the price. There are a lot of complaints about Toyo CF and Shen Hao cameras, so you should eliminate those. The Wista is OK if not a great camera. The Woodman is overpriced and I believe it is another version of the Tachihara, though I could be wrong about that. Once you get into the Wista price range you can afford an Ebony RW45 which IS a great camera. My choice are 1) Ebony 2)Osaka 3) Wista 4) Tachihara

The first LF camera that I owned was a Wista DX. It was a fine camera within its

limitations, mainly the extension and non-interchangable bellows. I have examined a

Shen-Hao 4x5, and it looks like an excellent camera, especially for the price. It has more

features than the Wista or similar entry field cameras. Some dealers seem to have sold

other Chinese camera brands under the Shen-Hao name, and these cameras generated

compliants about quality control. So keep this in mind when you look at past postings.

There have been many postings by satisifed Shen-Hao owners on this forum. When it was

introduced, there were complaints about the Toyo 45CF. Probably the problems are

solved by now. I wouldn't buy one unless I could return it.

The Tachihara will do everything you need in an entry level camera. Actually, it will probably do everything you need at any level. They have been making the same camera for at least 25 years, so they've worked out the bugs pretty well. The focusing screen on the Tachihara is as good as any screen in the business. IINM, the Osaka is actually identical except for the label. Calumet also marketed the Tachihara for a while as the Calument Wood Field XM.

 

The only limitation I've found with mine is the same as with most field cameras -- limited bellows means you can't use lenses longer than 300mm (telephotos up to 400mm, I don't know about a 500mm telephoto.) And if you want to go shorter than 65mm you'll need recessed lensboards or better yet go with the Shen Hao which offers a bag bellows.

Alan: I have to correct you. The Osaka is not identical except for the label. The metal parts of the Osaka are heavier duty. They switched to aluminum from brass to keep the weight down. The other difference is the finish. The Tachihara has a red stain on it. The Osaka multiple layers of lacquer to get a more beautiful finish. But I agree with you they both are good, usable cameras.

You have too many different cameras there to allow for a detailed comparison. If you search hard enough you can find complaints about any brand of camera. However, I'd guess from reading that about 95% of the owners of Shen Hao cameras are quite happy with them. Tachiharas are excellent cameras also. Those two cameras are the ones typically recommended to someone new to LF photography who wants a relatively inexpensive field camera. The main difference between them is that the Tachihara is two pounds lighter but the Shen Hao has more movements (though the movements on the Tachihara are perfectly adequate for general purpose photography). However both are pretty well made, have adequate to very good movements, aren't too heavy, and generally are very good cameras for the money.

 

I've never been impressed by Wista as a good value for the money. I haven't owned one but the ones I've played around with haven't been noticeably better than the Tachihara I used to own in any obvious way despite costing almost twice as much (and having a one inch shorter bellows than the Tachihara).

 

I've never used a Toho but I've read a good bit about them. They are monorail cameras, not field cameras like all the others you mention. They're very light and so tend to be favored by people who do a lot of backpacking. They cost about twice as much as the Shen Hao or Tachihara but probably have a longer bellows and more movements (at least more than the Tachihara). I wouldn't want a monorail for the field myself but if having a very light weight camera with a lot of movements and a good reputation appeals to you then it's a camera worth studying further.

 

I've also never used a Horseman Woodman or a Toyo CF. I understand from reading that the Toyo CF doesn't have back movements. If so I'd avoid it. One of the most common movements used in LF photography is pointing the camera up (for example to include the top of a building or a tree in the photograph) and then tilting the back forward to keep the film parallel with the vertical subject (which avoids the "falling over backwards" look you see in so many photographs of trees, buildings, etc.). I wouldn't buy a camera that didn't have tilt (and swing) on the back for that reason. I know nothing at all about the Horseman Woodman.

 

If I were in your position, looking for an entry level field camera, I'd eliminate the Toyo CF and the Wista for the reasons stated above. Then I'd try to decide between the Shen Hao and Tachihara since they are the least expensive of the remaining cameras you mention and are also very good cameras. Once you decide on one of those two then see whether any of the other cameras you mention have some features that seem sufficiently important to you to justify paying about twice as much for them as the Tachihara or Shen Hao.

 

By an interesting coincidence the two cameras Mr. Cahn tells you to avoid - Shen Hao and Toyo - happen to be two brands he doesn't sell in his camera store. And by another coincidence, the Osaka and Ebony cameras that you didn't mention but that he nevertheless recommends happen to be two brands that he does sell in his camera store. So you might take those facts into account in evaluating his opinions about the various cameras in question.

I do not know Mr. Cahn.

It does occur to me, however, that Mr. Cahn might choose to stock a particular camera and

not another based on his experiences with and, therefore, opinions of those cameras.

 

phil

Hello Ross-

 

Welcome to the world of large format. If you checkout View Camera magazine site, viewcamera.com, under the free article sessions there is article on 4x5 camera which makes a comparision of three of the models you have asked about. Also check out the large format photography site and its forum on cameras.

 

I have a Shen-Hao 4x5 and I would not hesitate recommend buying a Shen-Hao. Its well made camera. It has a plenty of movements to use.

I use a Linhof Tek IV. I bought a Shen Hao for my wife and we are both very impressed with the camera. Good value to the money IMHO. I have use to have a Wista and as far as I'm concerned the Shen Hao is a better camera.

To Brian Ellis: I sell only what I have tested and believe in. My camera store is as much an expression of love for large format as it is a business. I should be retired, and could be, but I sell the brands of cameras I do because I love them and enjoy handling the large number of beauties that go through here. If I thought that the Shen Hao were good enough I would sell it. I have owned and worked extensively with every brand I have sold. And have only kept the brands which are superior. In addition you should know that every camera that comes through here has been personally inspected by me for defects. Any problem, it goes back to the maker, not the customer. This is not like B&H, where they will sell anything made. I will only sell it if I believe in it.

Rory,

 

The way the market is, you might consider buying a camera second-hand. I say that as someone who has a psychological bias against buying things second-hand. But the fact is, these days you can buy large format cameras and lenses in wonderful condition at a signficant discount from buying new. There are a lot of people who own these cameras, but have barely used them and want out.

 

Also, if your heart is set on a field camera, well and good, but if you are prepared to consider a monorail camera, have a look around. For example, you can buy an Arca-Swiss Discovery, second-hand, for an amount equal to or less than a new copy of some of the field cameras that you are talking about.

 

You may find it useful to have a look at the classifieds at www.largeformatphotography.info and www.apug.org.

 

Cheers.

I have a Tachihara for some months, and yes it is a nice camera for little money. The downs are that the movements are not very accurate, and that it is a base-tilt and not an axis-tilt, and this necessites a re-focus after tilting. Although it is possible to move it out of the slider first. For moving up and down the mountains, it is a perfect outfit. It may not be so convenient for studio works. As it was said in several forum, "its color attracts the crowd". As first purchase, I will go again for the Tachihara.

Mr. Cahn,

 

When one responds to a thread on this or any other internet site, especially a thread started by someone to is new to the area, it is basic manners to disclose that one is a vendor of the products that one is recommending. Especially when you write like you are a consumer, as in "I just got a 5x7 Osaka and was amazed at how good it is..." Ain't a hard concept to understand, I hope. The fact is, Mr. Ellis did this thread a service.

To Bruce Cahn: You have a blatant and obvious conflict of interest when someone here asks for a camera recommendation and you recommend a camera you sell (or tell them not to buy cameras you don't sell). The point isn't whether you're making your recommendations in good faith or not. I'm sure you are. The point is that you have a basic conflict of interest as a dealer selling the products you recommend here and that conflict at a minimum should be disclosed when you post here.

I think that I was very objective about it. I did start my first comment by recommending two cameras I do not sell. If you guys think I should stay out of these discussions, I will.

Mr. Cahn--

 

I won't dispute or criticize your suggestions and critiques (although personally I've only seen GOOD comments about the Shen-Hao from those that own them), but you should have learned from the legal problems of others that FULL DISCLOSURE of any conflicts of interests will protect both YOU and those that listen to you. You might actually have drummed up some business for yourself had you done so, but I suspect that you have instead only harmed yourself here.

 

Unfortunately for us all.

 

And my own advice for a "starter" camera is to test out a few options such as seen above, and then buy the very best choice you can afford. I'd also recommend a 5x7 field camera with 4x5 reducer back rather than 4x5 unless you are absolutely certain you'll never want to use 5x7 film or a 6x17 roll film back. Movements front and back are a godsend for serious workers, but so is light weight if you want to go far into the field with it. Lenses, filters and film holders ultimately create the actual image, so don't forget to budget for these and a quality tripod.

The Ebony RW45 is is a real nice camera, pretty amazing for the price. Maybe a little more than you want to spend but you get what you pay for. I believe Bruce has these cameras in stock at a good price.Emile/www.deleon-ulf.com

"If you guys think I should stay out of these discussions, I will."

 

I don't personally care much one way or the other whether you stay out of these discussions or not, I suppose that's really up to you or maybe whoever runs this forum if anyone. However, if you stay in them I think most people here would agree that when discussing the merits of photography equipment that you sell (as opposed to technical discussions and other things unrelated to equipment) you should make an open, clear disclosure in every message that you're a retailer of photography equipment and you sell the equipment under discussion. I also think that even with such a disclosure, as pointed out by Robert Edge it's inappropriate for you to imply that you simply bought a camera as a consumer like the rest of us here do when it's actually a camera you sell in your store.

 

But none of this is up to me, I'm posting it only because you asked what "you guys" thought and that's what I think. I don't plan to say any more on the subject, I don't want to get involved in a personal discussion with you via this forum any more than I already have or to start a debate about what's appropriate here and what's not.

I think that you should continue to contribute, Mr. Cahn. Simply disclose that you are a dealer when you post. Perhaps you could create a standard header or footer that you paste into your posts from a Word doc. Your knowledge and expertise is valuable. Keep sharing it.

I am posting as moderator of this forum. While it might be helpful for Bruce to disclose

that he is a retailer, I do not consider him to have gone over some line. There doesn't

seem to much, if any conflict, of interest, since I don't think he is the sole retailer in the US

of any of these cameras, and if some reader of this thread decided to buy from him, they

would realize that they had received advice from him since he uses his full name here and

at his store. He is welcome to continue posting in the forum. Sometimes some of us

will have different opinions, and the various answers will hopefully help the original

poster.

 

He correctly didn't post the name or a link to his store, probably from his knowledge of

photo.net's Terms of Use: hyperlinks have to be directly relevant, "Linking to your own

personal site as a matter of course is not acceptable", and also the "No Soliciting" policy.

Mentioning that he is a retailer, when relevant to his answers, is acceptable, including disclosing that he is a retailer for brands that he has discussed.

I have been and still am, an avid user of Linhof cameras, but I have been using a Walker Titan 45SF for a year now. It is almost indestructable, precisely made and IMO has more versitility than any of the other cameras mentioned. It is around the same price as the RW45, which I have also used, but will take you further- photographically speaking. They are worth a look and are available in the colonies!!

 

best wishes

Robin

 

www.walkercameras.co.uk

 

 

PS I have no connection with any business of any kind.

Rory, Large Format is not for everyone. I have been shooting 4x5 for over 50 years, and have yet to make an exceptional image with it, but it still gives me the photographic equivilant to a "warm, fuzzy feeling" when I'm using it.

<P>May I suggest that until you've actually tried it for a while it won't make much difference which camera you use, so get an inexpensive one that you can resell without loosing much money, if things don't work out. (Personally, I don't see hou you can go wrong with the Tachihara.)

<P>Also, don't forget that whatever you end up with, you're going to be using a tripod, and getting the right one is just as important as (or perhaps more important than) which camera you purchase.

<P>I hope it works out for you -- LF can be such a pleasure (even when your pictures suck).

I got my Shen-Hao from Badger Graphic, same price and everyone else, they just had other accessories I wanted, film, lens boards etc. No direct knowledge of any other camera, but my friend likes his Tachi, and if I had the money I would have gotten the Ebony. The Shen-Hao is a high quality item, fit and finish are perfect, it's black walnut and beautiful. Movements are great and plentiful. Bellow extension can be "adjusted" to 15.5 inches (based on my DIRECT experience)..this allows for a little more lens flexibility. To over come bellows length I just purchased a 400mm Fujinon Telephoto since they need less bellows (Nikon has a 360 that will expand to 500 and 720, but that's too long for the Shen-Hao). I also looked really hard at the Wista, and choose to get the less expensive (1/3 the price) and 2 more lenses (e-bay). So now I have a 4x5 with Ready Loader (Kodak) and color slide film, standard 2-shot holders and BW film, 90, 150, 210 and 400 lens and tucked away in my Tenba canvas camera bag (big one with side pockets, series 695?) and I'm on vacation in San Francisco shooting away. Bottom line anyone of these cameras? have advantages and disadvantages Shen-Hao is a quality camera that has served me well.

I have a few observations/questions

 

Rory - Are you planning on buying new or used? Given that you mentioned Graflex suggests that you are considering used which would be my first choice if I were new to LF as there are many used bargains to be had out there.

 

Then - once familiar with LF & if it's what you want to continue to pursue shooting then you will have a basic working knowledge of what you want - based on what your camera has/does not have & then you can decide to buy new or used for the features you want/need.

 

If you have not shot LF yet it's very hard to make a determination of what will be your ultimate final choice (If there is one:))

 

As far as Bruce - I see no problem with his input & although I have bought film from him I did not realize it was him making the above posts - I will say he was very easy to buy from with no problems at all - continue to post Bruce.

 

My involvement with LF has been with other brands - unknown full plate studio camera, Szabad 9x12 (4x5), Linhof Bi-Kardan 9x12 (4x5), Wisner 4x5 Tech Field & also a Seneca View Full Plate. The Linhof I bought from a client & a great camera but I wanted more field usage & thus sold it. The Wisner was a very nice camera & I decided to sell it as I realized that I enjoy restoring older cameras as much as using them & now have the unknown/Szabad/Seneca.

 

With all that said - I suggest getting a used camera & get acclimated to LF & then learn what you ultimately would like in terms of features. A broad spectrum of variables is available.

 

Good luck & regards

Nobody suggested that Mr. Cahn should be banned from this forum. My point was simply that when posting messages about equipment he sells as a dealer, he should disclose the fact that he is a dealer in that equipment. I didn't suggest that he do that by posting a link to his store so I'm not sure what that part of Mr. Briggs' message is all about. In any event, I have no interest in participating in a forum in which dealers are free to recommend equipment they sell without informing people that they are dealers in that equipment so I'll end my participation here. My apologies for posting yet another public message about this subject but I've sent two private email messages to Mr. Briggs and both were rejected as spam by his server so I'm unable to communicate privately with him.