3/3 AND WHY ?

I wish they'd get rid of the anon ratings and make it manditory to leave a comment. It would just make all of the ratings that much more valid. I've recieved 3/3's that I've probably not earned. My last upload had a few of them, but some time last night or this morning all but one of them were removed. So obviously the admins are checking and trying to keep things fair and I applaud that.

 

But at the same time there are some 3/3's handed out by people with an axe to grind, and on the other end of the spectrum there are 7/7's handed out by people with an agenda as well. If people were forced to articulate why my shot is either so poor that it only deserves a 3/3 or why my shot is so outstanding as to rate a 7/7 it makes the rating that much more meaningful and makes it possible for me to learn from it. And if someone can't say why my shot is so great or so poor then it makes it easy for to dismiss that rating as well.

My guess is that if people were forced to leave a meaningful comment (something other than "it sucks" or "wow"), you'd see about 10% of the rating you currently do. Many (if not most) images would receive no ratings (or comments).

 

Then there's the problem of making people leave a meaningful comment. Not quite sure how you do that. If you require a minimum of 100 words, you're not going to get any ratings or comments at all on the vast majority of images.

 

And yes, we look for ratings abusers both automatically and manually and we find most (if not all) of them and their ratings are removed.

just look at this its really pain in the ass : http://www.photo.net/photo/5408916

just another idea come to my head , when someone rates the photo with low rating ,he had to wirte a comment ,and the comment must be accepted by the photographer or other active members. that means we wanted to have useful comments, and if they accept the comment ,the rater will get a point of useful comments and after a minimum if points reached the user is free to rate ,this will guarantee that if you get a rating ,the rater have really good ideas about photography.

the thing we must pay attention to is the comments on photos with negative feedbacks must be considered as pointful photos because if the positive feedbacks counts, the rater just go to top photos and open all photos and just type : "wow great shot!" and thats it !

 

the second think just came to my head is , when we love a photo ,usually its a photo that we can communicate with ,and when we do not like a photo , we dont really have an idea about the subject ! or the photo is bad executed . the point is we have the right to rate only when the photo is not well executed ,and when we cannot understand the photo subject we dont have the right to rate that photo low.

Anyone can rate. If you don't understand an image, that's fine. If the photographer didn't communicate an idea with the image, the photographer failed (if that was their goal) and so the image deserves a low rating if you don't like it.

 

There is no OBJECTIVE standard by which images can be judged. Everything is subjective. The rating is nothing more than YOUR subjective opinion on aesthetics and originality.

 

Basically it's a beauty contest. Expecting anything more is unreasonable unless you have a panel of academically qualified professional art critics doing the rating. Even then you're going to disagree with them.

just watch this :

http://www.photo.net/photo/5402770

 

and how it gets a lot of 7/7 im confused !

I don't know if this has a direct bearing on the 3/3 issue. but today I happened to check my VIEW RATINGS page, and there is something radically wrong.

I noticed many names with which I was not familiar, and started loading the photographs.I had never seen them, nor rated them.

After the first couple, I decided to go through the entire list, as I had checked the date, and both were OCT. 5/2006.

I found "19" entries I had never before Seen, Critiqued, or Rated, and all on that same date. 5 OCT. 2006.

At first, I was looking for 3/3's and 4/4's, but I noticed that many had higher ratings.

I don't know what is happening or how, as I'm not that computer literate, but I never forget a picture, good or bad, and never rate without commenting.To me, either there is a bug in the system, or someone is manipulating it. It's well beyond my expertise, but all, with two exceptions, I had never before, seen, commented or rated.

Bob Atkins: "My guess is that if people were forced to leave a meaningful comment (something other than "it sucks" or "wow"), you'd see about 10% of the rating you currently do. Many (if not most) images would receive no ratings (or comments).

 

Then there's the problem of making people leave a meaningful comment. Not quite sure how you do that. If you require a minimum of 100 words, you're not going to get any ratings or comments at all on the vast majority of images."

 

I understand that sir, but I think any comment at all would be an illuminating one. If someone just posts 'wow' or 'this sucks' you can automatically pretty much in your mind strike that 3/3 or 7/7 off. You know that the person probably doesn't really know why they either like or hate it. If someone leaves a comment then you can tell if they are rating it low because they hate the subject, are in a pissy mood, or if there are real problems with the photo.

 

Everything might be subjective, but at the same time different types of photography can be as different as night and day. Insect/macro photography doesn't exactly spin my wheels, but it wouldn't be fair for me to go into the insect forum anonyomously and leave 3/3's all over the place because they are 'pictures of bugs'. That wouldn't be fair or right, but at least if I was forced to leave a comment even anonyomously people would know where I'm coming from.

If you are happy with your pictures, you shouldn't bother with getting bad ratings once in a while... I mean, we're not in a competition or something! Just listen to good advices that some give. I had a look at your portfolio and loved some of your shots, so keep on shooting and sharing, that's the most important

Donald, thanks for viewing some of my shots. But I'm not sure if you understand my motives behind uploading pictures for critique. My goal isn't to get better ratings than other posters, my goal is to learn. And there is nothing to learn from an anon 3/3 rating.

and after all i hope some of the PN admins come and answer us or think of a better way of rating !

 

i think if the system force the rater to leave a comment even if the comments is WOW or IT SUCKS ! it has two benefits, first it makes the people to first think a lot and rate with reasons because if you just say it sucks and rate 3/3 then instead the photographer makes a revenge and rate your 3/3 ! the second benefit is the process of learning getting more helpful , someone says for example the composition is bad and then rate you 4/4 . it helps you to go after learning composition . yes its true the number of ratings may be decreases but a few helpful ratings worth a lot of meaningless and anon ratings :)

Amir,

I totally agree with you. What is a bad rating worth without feedback. It's like teachers giving

their pupils bad gredes without explaining nor teaching. At least I joined PN in order to learn

more, and in some cases to help others with problems I have struggled with in the past. You

shouldn't worry though, I have seen quite some nice pictures in your portfolio, and nice

comments too. There are always people around who think that anyone could have made that

picture, but then better.

Camillo

Bob,

 

I like your idea of expanding the scale. The range in the skill levels of the photographers is increasing on the site. Having more room at the top would allow for meaningful discrimination amongst the semi-pro's and pros and also a sense of accomplishment for the amateurs and advanced amateurs. This would create a more robust community. To make it work though there would have to be some sort of good and clear set of guidelines "10" means an unforgettable shot..think the Afghan girl, "9" top of the gamut shot -- publishable in the best publications, exceptional technical and creative quality, "8" very good shot, publishable in many media, no technical faults, creatively well conceived but not unique, and so on to where 4 is the normal good snapshot -- reasonably well exposed, no fatal technical flaws, and 3 means fatal technical flaws and lack of articstic merit.

I wasn't suggesting expanding the scale, just shifting it.

 

There have been studies on rating schemes and they show that too many options are bad. I think the optimum number of levels is in the 5-7 range.

 

Given the difficulty of rating art on a numerical scale, I'd opt for 5 levels at most. Below average (6), average (7), above average (8), good (9) and very good (10) pretty much covers it all.

 

In fact 3 levels (good, average and below average) might be enough.

 

Asking people to think too much isn't always productive.

I have received a variety of ratings, including some 3/3 ratings, and probably rightfully so since I am a beginner and most of my photos are my first attempts at photography. Being new to the site I don't believe any of them are 'personal' or 'grudges' against me for any reason. However, for those who do think that, maybe all photographer names should be left off of the photos in the rating section and be available if the rater clicks on the photo to go to it's actual page where it would show up as it does now.

 

I do, however, often wonder why some of my photos have lower averages then others because I receive very few comments to know what they did or did not like and what I need to work on. I like the idea of being required to leave a comment for a 3/3 rating, but also for a 7/7 rating. Feedback about what is well done can be as beneficial as knowing what is not well done. I can see that that may cause people to avoid leaving 3/3 or 7/7 ratings though because they would have to enter a comment (in essence changing the main scale to 4-6) or cause people to leave comments such as '...' or 'it's nice', etc.

 

On the other hand, being a beginner, I usually find myself feeling unqualified and out of place critiquing a photo better than any of my own and sometimes hesitate to leave comments myself, so I really can't complain about not receiving many comments.

How about having everyone that rates, forced to leave a comment. If they have to explain their rating, they may not be so apt to rate low and if they do explain, then at least you get some input as to why they rated it low.

I have occasionally seen a run on 3/3's, i.e. it seems like a single person just hit the Rate button and just systematically put a 3/3 onto every single photo - one time I was looking and there was a run of at least 20 3/3 ratings (only one on each of the 20 photos). I think the moderators probably watch those closely though.

 

BTW, what are the rules on giving out 7/7's?